The Meaning Of Justified

[dadof10]

Romans 5.1 is a reckoning, judicially, that the believer is righteous, because of faith in the work of Christ at the Cross. He sees us as acquitted, not guity.

In Romans 5.1 it's not at all the idea that God helps us to become more righteous (although He does this also to the believer in the Lord Jesus, but this is what is called sanctification).

Blessings.

Do you think this is the definition of "justified" in James 2?

There is no contradiction between the teaching on justification in James and Romans respectively. James says that justification that is not accompanied by evidence, isn't true justification anyway. But it is not the works that bring the justification into being; this is by faith, and it happens because God accepts the work of Christ on the behalf of those who truly believe, in dependence on that finished work.

Well, I think he says FAITH, if not accompanied by works, does not justify. Do you think it's possible to show "saving faith"? Once this faith has been shown to be IN THE BELIEVER, and IF the believer apostacizes, isn't OSAS necessarily false?

 

[dadof10]

The name of this thread is a mini-example of flawed logic.

Does any believer here or anywhere know the Perfect Meaning of Justified?

No. None of us who are on planet earth have 'experienced' in FULL, such a term.

So what we talk about here on earth are these various terms, such as justified, only in a limited sense of understandings.

A great flaw in simple reasoning transpires within ANY person or sect when they are deluded into thinking they know those terms in their PERFECT sense. And some sects do make such faulty claims. When they do they are merely showing their own faulty reasoning skills and not much more than that.

From the OP:

That the word "justified" in these verses means "shown to be righteous", is a common interpretation among OSAS proponents."

I'm talking about James 2, as everyone here realizes. Thanks for the input, though.

 

[Deborah13]

he is saying we can show our "saving faith" through our actions. If you believe he means the latter, which you seem to, this means it's POSSIBLE to show that we HAVE true, saving faith

Yes, we can 'show' faith in 'good works'. Only God knows if those 'good works' were done in His name with a pure heart for Him.

 

[smaller]

That the word "justified" in these verses means "shown to be righteous", is a common interpretation among OSAS proponents."

You can flash card any meaning you want dadO. My observation will remain intact about no one knowing the Perfect Meaning of those terms. Justification or Righteousness are partial sights in this present life.

Paul attests to this fact here for example, showing that we still 'await' The Righteousness of Christ.

Galatians 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

A hope is not a 'tangible in hand matter.'

Simple logic then dictates that we are 'factually' dealing with 'less than Perfect' terms on these subjects.

If this evades you and you think or claim to have thee one and only Perfect Solution what can I say?

I'm talking about James 2, as everyone here realizes. Thanks for the input, though.

You and your copart like to give the quick brush off when things don't lean your way.

I put up a factual observation that providing a cup of water is sufficient for a reward that will NOT be lost according to Jesus. Is this 'sufficient work for JUSTIFICATION' in your working for salvation scenario?

Or are you going to slide by and not address it?

For most 'works for salvation' proponents no work is ever enough for surety.

The only thing they ever have is a maybe.

s

 

[dadof10]

he is saying we can show our "saving faith" through our actions. If you believe he means the latter, which you seem to, this means it's POSSIBLE to show that we HAVE true, saving faith

Yes, we can 'show' faith in 'good works'. Only God knows if those 'good works' were done in His name with a pure heart for Him.

That wasn't the question. Can we show TRUE SAVING faith by our actions? Can we show that what we HAVE is a true faith?

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[Deborah13]

Can we show that what we HAVE is a true faith?

Show to whom?

 

[dadof10]

Can we show that what we HAVE is a true faith?

Show to whom?

Other people. Each other. James says its possible. He says "I by my works will show YOU my faith."


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[Deborah13]

Can we show that what we HAVE is a true faith?

Show to whom?

Other people. Each other. James says its possible. He says "I by my works will show YOU my faith."


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No, I do not agree. I believe that what James is teaching is all about looking at yourself and judging your own faith not other people's faith.
When he uses the 'If a man says" this is not a literal conversation. He is saying that when one man says ....he is not talking about what other people do, it's to reflect on yourself not others. True faith shows mercy to others in the Royal Law. If we have Christ we should have mercy and compassion on others as Jesus showed us over and over in His ministry. We should not be proud, no matter what we do we will never be worthy of God's amazing grace toward us, something we cannot ever earn and we are not suppose to try. If our hearts do not want to show mercy then something is wrong.

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, I think he says FAITH, if not accompanied by works, does not justify. Do you think it's possible to show "saving faith"? Once this faith has been shown to be IN THE BELIEVER, and IF the believer apostacizes, isn't OSAS necessarily false?

It occurred to me that even OSAS has to agree that faith must persevere to the end for it to save a person, because the moment your faith stops persevering--your unbelief being evidenced in what you do--you have identified yourself as never having been saved in the first place.

And, as you point out, who's to say your next attempt at 'believing' makes your salvation any more sure than the last time you thought your faith made it a sure thing, but which didn't?

OSAS is easily the doctrine that has little to no surety of salvation about it. You never know if your faith will continue to the end, validating your faith as able to save, because you never arrive at the end in this life. The only way to know you're saved is to die and see where you end up.

This is completely contrary to the Bible which says we CAN know we have the hope of salvation, now. It says as long as you have faith--faith that can be seen in what you do--you can have the confidence that you are saved. From there, the admonition of the Bible is to stay in that faith, and the work faith does, so you can continue in the hope that the faith you're having now secures for you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can we show that what we HAVE is a true faith?

Show to whom?

Other people. Each other. James says its possible. He says "I by my works will show YOU my faith."


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Pretty hard to argue with if you ask me. And it's certainly consistent with the rest of scripture.

 

[Deborah13]

This is completely contrary to the Bible which says we CAN know we have the hope of salvation, now. It says as long as you have faith--faith that can be seen in what you do--you can have the confidence that you are saved. From there, the admonition of the Bible is to stay in that faith, and the work faith does, so you can continue in the hope that faith secures.

My hope/faith is not in me and what I do. My hope/faith is in Jesus and what He did.

He is faithful even when I'm not.

 

[farouk]

This is completely contrary to the Bible which says we CAN know we have the hope of salvation, now. It says as long as you have faith--faith that can be seen in what you do--you can have the confidence that you are saved. From there, the admonition of the Bible is to stay in that faith, and the work faith does, so you can continue in the hope that faith secures.

My hope/faith is not in me and what I do. My hope/faith is in Jesus and what He did.

He is faithful even when I'm not.

Deborah13:

Well, exactly.

Ephesians 2.9 and Ephesians 2.10 go together. Nothing is of human merit; it's all of Him.

Blessings.

 

[Potluck]

Works-centered religions like Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism and just about every other religion rely on what a person does. Do this, do that ... gain your presence with The Father.
What happens if I fail? Do I need to start over crucifying Christ once again? Or did He die for our sins once and for all?
Ok, so I fail. I ask forgiveness. Because he is faithful things are set aright. What if I don't ask forgiveness? What if what I do I don't recognize as sin? If I don't ask forgiveness then what? Oh, but Christ is faithful and will forgive though I'm not aware of my transgression. So another facet of work-centered religion must be drawn, parameters set, circumstances thought about and dealt with. More rules? More exceptions necessary followed by support through certain verses not really meant to ratify a law or regulation?
Does that mean I believe I can do what I want, sin after sin pleasing the world and the body of flesh? Of course not. Thank God I'm not the man I used to be. For now I know the things I previously thought acceptable are not. My spirit convicts me, my spirit leads me to the Cross and takes my focus from self to Christ. No longer do I look inward with guilt and doubt of salvation. Oh wretched man that I am who shall save me from this body of death? Praise Jesus Christ our Lord and savior.

Faith without works is dead. And faith without the works of unbelief is very much alive for no longer can I justify the things I did as true and right. I denounce the sin the world applauds and supports knowing unbelief and doubt sets my soul adrift being tossed to and fro by the whims and desires of a fallen world. By my belief you shall know me. And by my denial of self I will show you my faith.

 

[dadof10]

Can we show that what we HAVE is a true faith?

Show to whom?

Other people. Each other. James says its possible. He says "I by my works will show YOU my faith."


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

No, I do not agree. I believe that what James is teaching is all about looking at yourself and judging your own faith not other people's faith.

This has nothing to do with judgement, but simply recognizing what a person HAS. If he was saying that we are to look at ourselves, why did he say "I...will show YOU my faith"? Obviously we can show what kind of faith we have, right?

 

[dadof10]

Well, I think he says FAITH, if not accompanied by works, does not justify. Do you think it's possible to show "saving faith"? Once this faith has been shown to be IN THE BELIEVER, and IF the believer apostacizes, isn't OSAS necessarily false?

It occurred to me that even OSAS has to agree that faith must persevere to the end for it to save a person, because the moment your faith stops persevering--your unbelief being evidenced in what you do--you have identified yourself as never having been saved in the first place.

And, as you point out, who's to say your next attempt at 'believing' makes your salvation any more sure than the last time you thought your faith made it a sure thing, but which didn't?

OSAS is easily the doctrine that has little to no surety of salvation about it. You never know if your faith will continue to the end, validating your faith as able to save, because you never arrive at the end in this life. The only way to know you're saved is to die and see where you end up.

Do you still consider yourself merely LEANING away from OSAS, or are you in a full sprint? It seems like the latter.

This is completely contrary to the Bible which says we CAN know we have the hope of salvation, now. It says as long as you have faith--faith that can be seen in what you do--you can have the confidence that you are saved. From there, the admonition of the Bible is to stay in that faith, and the work faith does, so you can continue in the hope that the faith you're having now secures for you.

Good point. Without OSAS, we can have true ASSURANCE that, at this moment in time, we are truly saved. We know by our "works", and others can see it too. We have a baseline, so to speak, a sort of picture of what "saving faith" looks and feels like. If this faith is ever lost, we have a way (by Grace alone, lest I get accused by some of holding "works salvation") of recognizing where we have to get back to and know what it feels like when we get there (again, by Grace alone).

With the "never saved in the first place" take, there really is no assurance at all. All the faith and works and love and joy and charity and... that we were freely given by God, really wasn't salvation at all. We only THOUGHT we were saved. Now, once we repent and return to this same state (faith and works and...) we can NEVER be sure (i.e. assurance) that THIS time it is REAL faith.

There can be no assurance unless we can know what true faith IS and if we are living it. We are told by the OSAS crowd that what we THOUGHT was "saving faith" really wasn't. "Never saved in the first place" takes AWAY assurance.

 

[Deborah13]

This has nothing to do with judgement, but simply recognizing what a person HAS. If he was saying that we are to look at ourselves, why did he say "I...will show YOU my faith"? Obviously we can show what kind of faith we have, right?

I cannot explain it any clearer to you how I interpret this scripture.

This is a hypothetical conversation used to teach what saving faith looks like. That is all. A cup of water to a thirsty man, etc.

 

[Brother Mike]

Deborah13

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Well, depart and be in peace, be warm and be filled is a speaking over something as was taught then that you have what you say and faith speaks this wise (Something lost today). Faith comes when I show the mercy and give, then believing God myself that my needs are met though I just gave it all to you. That is faith with works. Faith takes action and responds, while believing God.

You can tell a person has faith when the bad doctor reports come, when bills pile up, when someone is not home when they should be. You really find out what christens believe outside of just being saved.

One guy telling this Pastor that if it's not one problem then it's another. He could not figure out why He could not get ahead. What could the Pastor say? The problem was under the mans nose.

Showing faith:
When things are down, when things go bad, when it's not looking good health wise, your joy and what you say will show exactly where your faith is at. Someone that believes what God said, sweats none of it, nor loses any Joy as they know the outcome.

Mike.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is completely contrary to the Bible which says we CAN know we have the hope of salvation, now. It says as long as you have faith--faith that can be seen in what you do--you can have the confidence that you are saved. From there, the admonition of the Bible is to stay in that faith, and the work faith does, so you can continue in the hope that faith secures.

My hope/faith is not in me and what I do. My hope/faith is in Jesus and what He did.

And that it should be. But what if you don't have hope/faith in Jesus and what He did? Obviously, you don't have what hope and faith secure for you, right?

He is faithful even when I'm not.

Absolutely correct. But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Works-centered religions like Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism and just about every other religion rely on what a person does. Do this, do that ... gain your presence with The Father.

Sadly, too many in the church hear the Bible's admonition to 'make your calling and election sure' by what you do as a way to MAKE yourself saved, instead of SHOWING yourself to be saved.

By my belief you shall know me. And by my denial of self I will show you my faith.

But somehow this gets repeatedly misunderstood as trying to earn your own salvation, instead of what it is--validating whether or not the faith you have can save you.

 

[Deborah13]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?