The Meaning Of Justified

[JLB]

Look closely at what you're saying.

"...anyone who was saved and then disowned..."

The argument is not that 'saved' people are disowned. That's impossible.

The argument is they reject their salvation, and then are disowned.

So I agree completely...'saved' people can not lose their salvation. Keep believing and you will never lose your salvation. Keep believing and you will never be disowned by Christ.

We can know if we're persevering in that belief--the belief that saves--by what we do. Somehow this only gets heard as 'earning your own salvation'. But the Bible plainly says we can recognize salvation by what it does.

A good example of this would be a site called - ExChristian.net.

It is very sad to see all the Christians that have "left" the church for many reasons.

Some of the threads are as follows -

What Killed Your Faith For Good?

Phases Of Deconversion

Here's To You, Ex-christians...



I believe we should be praying for these folks.


I know I have been.




JLB

Those are going to make for many hours of interesting reading.

We have to know how unbelievers think if we're going to be able to talk to them. Sadly, we're just not really equipped with the truth to respond to the lies and deceits that turn them off from God. In fact, we're equipped with so many misguided doctrines ourselves that keep them in their godlessness.

It hurts me to see that people have so many bad reasons to reject the truth when there should really be only one reason they do that--they want to stay in the joy of their sins. I can accept that. What I can't accept is they reject God because of some misguided doctrine of the church. That hurts. Makes me want to be the pastor I don't have the calling to be so the world can know the truth and make educated decisions about living for God or not.

I believe the message the Lord has given you, and the language He has equipped you with, will help a great deal in these matters.


JLB

 

[smaller]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Many believers openly disown and disavow many forms of 'phony' Jesus.

Every person in this thread has done that.

The non-OSAS crowd for example disowns and disavows the Savior who saves without reservations those who call upon Him to do so...

...and vice versa do we disown and disavow the opposing version of Jesus.

s

Interesting point. It all depends on how YOU/ME see Jesus. A personal relationship is just that personal, He deals with us as He will.

I wanted to (again) bring this matter forward in this particular conversation because factually none of us see Jesus PERFECTLY, as He really IS.

IN this way we all have 'less than Perfect' IMAGES of Jesus that we bring to the table of conversations.

For me, I reject any such IMPERFECT Jesus Images, even MY OWN.

And do so on the basis of fact that I acknowledge I do not see PERFECTLY. And I therefore refuse to bow down to my own IMAGINATIONS.

Do some believers reject the factually imperfect versions of Jesus that other 'sects' present?

Without any doubt, they do so. And may very well do so by the example I'm providing here.

When any 'sect' or individual brings what they term the 'perfect terms and conditions' for JUSTIFICATIONS for example, and says this is absolutely what it is, I auto-reject on the basis that their terms and conditions are not 'all that.'

They can dress themselves up all they want and take upon themselves all the authority they can muster and on any level I can simply say this fact: Neither your sight or my sight is PERFECT.

So that settles it for me. I can factually see vastly more different 'thresholds' because I automatically put DOWN MY OWN limits.

Used the cup of water JUSTIFICATION scenario earlier.

I can see Jesus saying as He did, that those who do so will not lose their reward and see PERMANENT JUSTIFICATION in that small of an action.

Yet for most in the non-OSAS camp such a thing would never be enough.

I say they can not read, plain and simple.

s

 

[Deborah13]

I did speak to the woman that I knew who fell away later on, and she did think she was still cool with God.

This is where we differ. If this woman was truly saved and has backslid, God will deal with her. He will show her she is wrong, He is not cool with her attitude.
And when He does she may be very sorry she messed around with His abundant GRACE. The rod of correction is not pretty but is life saving.
So pray for her that the Lord's will be done in her life, can't go wrong praying this way.

 

[smaller]

Many believers openly disown and disavow many forms of 'phony' Jesus.

Every person in this thread has done that.

The non-OSAS crowd for example disowns and disavows the Savior who saves without reservations those who call upon Him to do so...

...and vice versa do we disown and disavow the opposing version of Jesus.

s

Interesting point. It all depends on how YOU/ME see Jesus. A personal relationship is just that personal, He deals with us as He will.

I can't know or determine what is in a person's heart no matter what I see on the outside.

It's pretty easy in some people lives to have a shiny, clean cup on the outside where the light shines for all to see. But it is on the inside, in the dark where intentions hide. Until the Lord shines His light on a particular corner one may not even be aware of the scum that has built up there.
We have to be brave enough to say, 'show me Lord'.

But people twist this to think they can be bad people and still be good with God. The Bible is very clear about this...you're kidding yourself. Unfortunately, we don't see much 'show me Lord' in regard that. The suggestion is we can thank OSAS for that.

Everyone is a sinner so that is pretty much equal ground for everyone.

Everyone also does both good and bad, so again...equal ground.

The only differentiator is FAITH.

So, on the basis of the definition of faith, resides the solution to this dilemma.

s

 

[reba]

When I received Christ I was keenly aware of my choice in the matter. I could have just as easily NOT accepted Christ in that moment as accept him. The Spirit warned me He was not going to bother me for a very, very long time if I turned away this time.

Could you?

When the Potter is forming the bowl, the bowl is what the Potter forms.

These are some of the question I have on the topic. Jumping back and forth across the OSAS fence some day I will get caught on a picket

 

[smaller]

I did speak to the woman that I knew who fell away later on, and she did think she was still cool with God.

This is where we differ. If this woman was truly saved and has backslid, God will deal with her. He will show her she is wrong, He is not cool with her attitude.
And when He does she may be very sorry she messed around with His abundant GRACE. The rod of correction is not pretty but is life saving.
So pray for her that the Lord's will be done in her life, can't go wrong praying this way.

As a believer we learn that God in Christ is INFINITELY MERCIFUL with our IMPERFECTIONS.

And that will be 'an eternally continuing' fact of God in Christ.

His Mercy Endures FOREVER.

s

 

[reba]

And this 'without reservation' thing? Since when is salvation ever given apart from the condition of trust in Christ's blood? Where is this in scripture, that I can be saved apart from faith in the blood of Christ? God will indeed reserve his salvation for those who 'call upon his name', trusting in the blood to forgive. There most certainly is a condition for salvation--it's called 'faith'. I disown and reject any gospel of Jesus that says you don't have to have faith to be saved.

Agreed.....

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Eph_4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

Yet for most in the non-OSAS camp such a thing would never be enough.

How could anything ever be enough? We look to Jesus for an example of perfect righteousness, we can't ever make it there. If one thinks they can or have, they have denied they need a Savior, plain and simple.

I know you know this but I will say it to all here....

We are not saved by faith alone....God's GRACE is necessary.

We so wrapped up in judging our faith and the faith of others we forget it's "by Grace".

For me it just doesn't work to look at my faith, which has been lacking at times and I'm sure will be again. But when I look at Jesus and God's grace in my life and the life of others that humbles me. That He could be so loving and merciful is so over the top who can stand, not me.

 

[Deborah13]

The non-OSAS crowd for example disowns and disavows the Savior who saves without reservations those who call upon Him to do so...

Wrong! Dead wrong!

Christ will in no way disown the one who calls upon Him.

Stop calling on him and you've got another story.


And this 'without reservation' thing? Since when is salvation ever given apart from the condition of trust in Christ's blood? Where is this in scripture, that I can be saved apart from faith in the blood of Christ? God will indeed reserve his salvation for those who 'call upon his name', trusting in the blood to forgive. There most certainly is a condition for salvation--it's called 'faith'. I disown and reject any gospel of Jesus that says you don't have to have faith to be saved.

One must have faith to "call on the Lord" to be saved don't you think?

I didn't hear anyone claiming otherwise.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The non-OSAS crowd for example disowns and disavows the Savior who saves without reservations those who call upon Him to do so...

Wrong! Dead wrong!

Christ will in no way disown the one who calls upon Him.

Stop calling on him and you've got another story.


And this 'without reservation' thing? Since when is salvation ever given apart from the condition of trust in Christ's blood? Where is this in scripture, that I can be saved apart from faith in the blood of Christ? God will indeed reserve his salvation for those who 'call upon his name', trusting in the blood to forgive. There most certainly is a condition for salvation--it's called 'faith'. I disown and reject any gospel of Jesus that says you don't have to have faith to be saved.

One must have faith to "call on the Lord" to be saved don't you think?

I didn't hear anyone claiming otherwise.

But OSAS says I can be 'faithless' and still be saved.

Can I stop calling on the name of the Lord in faith and still have the promised benefit reserved for those who call upon his name in faith?

OSAS says, 'yes'. But scripture says you'd be giving away the very thing that secured God's grace in the first place--IOW, you will no longer be fulfilling God's condition of faith in order to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yet for most in the non-OSAS camp such a thing would never be enough.

How could anything ever be enough? We look to Jesus for an example of perfect righteousness, we can't ever make it there. If one thinks they can or have, they have denied they need a Savior, plain and simple.

I know you know this but I will say it to all here....

We are not saved by faith alone....God's GRACE is necessary.

We so wrapped up in judging our faith and the faith of others we forget it's "by Grace".

For me it just doesn't work to look at my faith, which has been lacking at times and I'm sure will be again. But when I look at Jesus and God's grace in my life and the life of others that humbles me. That He could be so loving and merciful is so over the top who can stand, not me.

Can't you see the contradiction in what you're saying?

You say it doesn't work to 'look at your faith', but then turn right around and find confidence (rightly so) by your faith in Jesus and God's grace in your life. The very thing you're describing IS the surety of your salvation--your trust in God's grace. And because you have that you are a different person.

Being forgiven changes people. Not being forgiven stalls a person right where they've always been in their sin and the mistreatment of others...especially the mistreatment of those in the church who have been forgiven.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As a believer we learn that God in Christ is INFINITELY MERCIFUL with our IMPERFECTIONS.

EXCEPT the imperfection of willful unbelief. His grace is not as infinite as you think. It can't reach the one who rejects that grace.

EVERYTHING ELSE can be covered by the blood of Christ (if you want it to be).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When I received Christ I was keenly aware of my choice in the matter. I could have just as easily NOT accepted Christ in that moment as accept him. The Spirit warned me He was not going to bother me for a very, very long time if I turned away this time.

Could you?

When the Potter is forming the bowl, the bowl is what the Potter forms.

If I had refused he still would have known from eternity past that I would make that decision, and patiently formed me and brought me to that point in time anyway.

These are some of the question I have on the topic. Jumping back and forth across the OSAS fence some day I will get caught on a picket

Honestly, I think it's better to err on the side of non-OSAS. I certainly would not want to be guilty of telling the unrighteous it's okay with God when it's really not. I have some Ezekiel scriptures that I've been waiting to use in this discussion.

Non-OSAS doesn't pass judgment on the eternal destiny of people as OSAS does (ie, "you were never saved to begin with"). Non-OSAS deals with the here and now and leaves a future of room for God's grace.

 

[Deborah13]

I certainly would not want to be guilty of telling the unrighteous it's okay with God when it's really not.

I have Never heard an OSAS person tell someone that it is OK to sin. That is a total exaggeration.

Non-OSAS doesn't pass judgment on the eternal destiny of people as OSAS does (ie, "you were never saved to begin with").

Now you are comparing all OSAS believers saying they all believe the same way. "you were never saved to begin with" uh....seems to me they are talking to someone who is still alive on this earth and they would have no idea what God's plan is in this persons life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I certainly would not want to be guilty of telling the unrighteous it's okay with God when it's really not.

I have Never heard an OSAS person tell someone that it is OK to sin. That is a total exaggeration.

Total? I don't think so. (I would expect smaller to be all over this.)

Even though OSAS will say disobedience is a sign you were never really saved to begin with, it also vehemently defends the 'believer' who has no works because salvation is by faith alone (yeah, I know, it's confusing).

I would NEVER tell someone living a fruitless life that they don't have to worry because salvation is by faith alone. The Bible DOESN'T say to be comforted that way. What it DOES say is that person needs to prove their salvation by what they do and then take comfort in that.

 

[smaller]

As a believer we learn that God in Christ is INFINITELY MERCIFUL with our IMPERFECTIONS.

EXCEPT the imperfection of willful unbelief.

Exactly 'none' of us believe Perfectly in any case of definitions.

And the notion you have that once calling upon Him is insufficient is merely an insufficiency of your own making.

His grace is not as infinite as you think. It can't reach the one who rejects that grace.

That's actually pretty funny, you placing limits on Gods Grace.

EVERYTHING ELSE can be covered by the blood of Christ (if you want it to be).

Yeah, well, I don't adhere to the notion that God in Christ is only valid and effective 'if I continually think He Is.'

s

 

[Jake]

Exactly 'none' of us believe Perfectly in any case of definitions.

And the notion you have that once calling upon Him is insufficient is merely an insufficiency of your own making.


That's actually pretty funny, you placing limits on Gods Grace.

EVERYTHING ELSE can be covered by the blood of Christ (if you want it to be).

Yeah, well, I don't adhere to the notion that God in Christ is only valid and effective 'if I continually think He Is.'

s

God's grace only goes as far as the person is willing to grab ahold. There are people who will have accepted His grace and then they will reject it.

If you're in a hole, God extends His hand (grace) - what do we do? Stare at it? No! We grab it, it empowers us to get out of the hole!

 

[smaller]

God's grace only goes as far as the person is willing to grab ahold. There are people who will have accepted His grace and then they will reject it.

I chalk up such 'failings' to believers falling to the wiles of the god of this world, SATAN. I don't believe that automatically sends them to hell by any means or that Jesus abandons them or will not make Good on His Promises.

If you're in a hole, God extends His hand (grace) - what do we do? Stare at it? No! We grab it, it empowers us to get out of the hole!

I don't necessarily buy those stories that God can't do anything apart from our 'needed' cooperation.

There are too many accounts that show that God does exactly what He wants to do.

Saul on the road to Damascus wasn't a cooperative venture. He was struck down by DIVINE INTENTIONS.

And God can do that anytime with anyone if He chooses to do so.

s

 

[Deborah13]

What it DOES say is that person needs to prove their salvation by what they do and then take comfort in that.

Please give me scripture that we should take comfort in our works.

 

[Jake]

I chalk up such 'failings' to believers falling to the wiles of the god of this world, SATAN. I don't believe that automatically sends them to hell by any means or that Jesus abandons them or will not make Good on His Promises.

Or it's a choice. After all, if someone is helping us, it's our choice to receive it or not. No, I wouldn't say they would be lost forever, but some could be lost forever.

I don't necessarily buy those stories that God can't do anything apart from our 'needed' cooperation.

There are too many accounts that show that God does exactly what He wants to do.

Saul on the road to Damascus wasn't a cooperative venture. He was struck down by DIVINE INTENTIONS.

And God can do that anytime with anyone if He chooses to do so.

s

It is how God has it set it up, He uses us to glorify Himself.

We are cooperating with Him to further His Kingdom on earth, He chooses to use us in this manner - He created the world - yet, He still wants our cooperation.

I guess God uses many different ways in order to get our attention. Sometimes it takes a shock.