The Meaning Of Justified

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, I think he says FAITH, if not accompanied by works, does not justify. Do you think it's possible to show "saving faith"? Once this faith has been shown to be IN THE BELIEVER, and IF the believer apostacizes, isn't OSAS necessarily false?

It occurred to me that even OSAS has to agree that faith must persevere to the end for it to save a person, because the moment your faith stops persevering--your unbelief being evidenced in what you do--you have identified yourself as never having been saved in the first place.

And, as you point out, who's to say your next attempt at 'believing' makes your salvation any more sure than the last time you thought your faith made it a sure thing, but which didn't?

OSAS is easily the doctrine that has little to no surety of salvation about it. You never know if your faith will continue to the end, validating your faith as able to save, because you never arrive at the end in this life. The only way to know you're saved is to die and see where you end up.

Do you still consider yourself merely LEANING away from OSAS, or are you in a full sprint? It seems like the latter.

I don't know, lol.

It's Saturday, so let me check...ah, yes, I'm non-OSAS today. Check back with me tomorrow.

This is completely contrary to the Bible which says we CAN know we have the hope of salvation, now. It says as long as you have faith--faith that can be seen in what you do--you can have the confidence that you are saved. From there, the admonition of the Bible is to stay in that faith, and the work faith does, so you can continue in the hope that the faith you're having now secures for you.

Good point. Without OSAS, we can have true ASSURANCE that, at this moment in time, we are truly saved. We know by our "works", and others can see it too. We have a baseline, so to speak, a sort of picture of what "saving faith" looks and feels like. If this faith is ever lost, we have a way (by Grace alone, lest I get accused by some of holding "works salvation") of recognizing where we have to get back to and know what it feels like when we get there (again, by Grace alone).

With the "never saved in the first place" take, there really is no assurance at all. All the faith and works and love and joy and charity and... that we were freely given by God, really wasn't salvation at all. We only THOUGHT we were saved. Now, once we repent and return to this same state (faith and works and...) we can NEVER be sure (i.e. assurance) that THIS time it is REAL faith.

There can be no assurance unless we can know what true faith IS and if we are living it. We are told by the OSAS crowd that what we THOUGHT was "saving faith" really wasn't. "Never saved in the first place" takes AWAY assurance.

I personally am too honest to argue with this. It's sound spiritual reasoning.

For a church that wants so desperately to bring people to faith in Christ we do a lot of damage to struggling people by discouraging them with this 'you were never saved to begin with' stuff. Instead of teaching them what the Bible does say and getting them back in the race of faith to the finish line and not dwelling on past failures, and not giving them any reason to think their next attempt is futile, too. From there let them decide if they are only now coming to a genuine faith and trust in Christ for salvation. What we think should only be shared with wisdom and discernment...and compassion. Let the word of God do the talking.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Did you mean to say you've never know anyone who disowned Christ after they professed salvation? That's the point. The Bible is clear on what will happen if a person does that. We know Christ will not disown his own--those who belong to him through faith and trust in his blood. But how does the person who no longer trusts in the blood still belong to Christ? That is, by definition, how one 'belongs' to Christ.

 

[dadof10]

This has nothing to do with judgement, but simply recognizing what a person HAS. If he was saying that we are to look at ourselves, why did he say "I...will show YOU my faith"? Obviously we can show what kind of faith we have, right?

I cannot explain it any clearer to you how I interpret this scripture.

This is a hypothetical conversation used to teach what saving faith looks like. That is all. A cup of water to a thirsty man, etc.

It may or may not be a hypothetical example, James might be pointedly calling someone out without using names, but certainly there were real men who thought simply believing in Christ, without love, could save them. The context bears this out.

This is what James is reacting to, a heresy within the Church. The point is, he thinks it's possible to "show" people the kind of faith we have. This is what the words actually say.

 

[Deborah13]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Did you mean to say you've never know anyone who disowned Christ after they professed salvation? That's the point. The Bible is clear on what will happen if a person does that. We know Christ will not disown his own--those who belong to him through faith and trust in his blood. But how does the person who no longer trusts in the blood still belong to Christ? That is, by definition, how one 'belongs' to Christ.

I don't know, I don't know anyone who has done that. Do you?

 

[Elijah674]

By Birth we will always be the offspring of our parents...their deaths, adoption etc does not change the biological fact.

Jesus used the term 'born again'.... When are we not God's kids?

This sounds like I am osas ... In realty I am on the fence...

Me and you both, but I seem to be facing toward the non-OSAS side.

is it a matter of degree ?...

What does the term 'backslide' mean... IMO it means " I missed up " it does not mean I turned my back God......

If my salvation depended on me I would be doomed ... Salvation is not ours ..Salvation belongs to the Lord

Psa_3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Good works, we should do, are not unto salvation ... Salvation is only by His shed Blood .. When The Almighty applies that Blood can lowly man remove it?

Seems possible to me since that blood is applied by faith. And the Bible warns us to not lose our faith.

The Galatians were warned of the dire consequences of turning from their faith in Christ for justification, and back to the ceremonial law for justification. So it seems one can really lose their confidence in the blood of Christ for justification (and not stay in that justification). The same warning went out to the Hebrew church.

You miss the concept of free choice for 'BOTH' Adam & Eve. The forbidden tree was that free choice!
It was not what Christ God could or would do for them. And BOTH made a free choice to go against the Law of God!
And thus we find the devil believed before God! Gen. 3:4

--Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

The point is, he thinks it's possible to "show" people the kind of faith we have. This is what the words actually say.

I'm not going to look to find the post. I already agreed with that, that one CAN show their faith to others, that would be stupid to say they can't. I think the apostles and saints who were willing to die for the cause of Christ 'showed' their faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Look closely at what you're saying.

"...anyone who was saved and then disowned..."

The argument is not that 'saved' people are disowned. That's impossible.

The argument is they reject their salvation, and then are disowned.

So I agree completely...'saved' people can not lose their salvation. Keep believing and you will never lose your salvation. Keep believing and you will never be disowned by Christ.

We can know if we're persevering in that belief--the belief that saves--by what we do. Somehow this only gets heard as 'earning your own salvation'. But the Bible plainly says we can recognize salvation by what it does.

 

[Deborah13]

This has nothing to do with judgement, but simply recognizing what a person HAS. If he was saying that we are to look at ourselves, why did he say "I...will show YOU my faith"? Obviously we can show what kind of faith we have, right?

I cannot explain it any clearer to you how I interpret this scripture.

This is a hypothetical conversation used to teach what saving faith looks like. That is all. A cup of water to a thirsty man, etc.

This is what James is reacting to, a heresy within the Church. The point is, he thinks it's possible to "show" people the kind of faith we have. This is what the words actually say.

I apologize, first I agreed then I disagreed because I read something into your post that you did not say.
Yes we can show faith to others, that others can see. Are we required to tell people are "good works" I don't see that anywhere.

 

[dadof10]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

We see and hear of it happening all the time, but I have personally known a few who have been "saved" in every sense of the word, and have apostocized. One became an Atheist, and two became, what I like to call Apathetists. They both thought they were saved anyway, so why bother going to church, praying, helping the poor, they were justified by "faith alone".... OSAS run amok. These two people are the reason I see this doctrine as so harmful. If OSAS is followed to it's logical conclusion, this is where it CAN (not "does" in every situation) logically lead.

You seem like a logical person, let me ask you what they asked me.

If a person is justified by faith alone, and our "works" don't matter at all, even to "show" our justification is real, what's the sense in living our lives in any particularly holy way? As Martin Luther said (exaggerating, to make a point) "Sin boldly. But believe even more boldly in Christ, and rejoice". Why not take the first part of this sentence literally, even though it wasn't written to be, because we are saved by faith alone?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Did you mean to say you've never know anyone who disowned Christ after they professed salvation? That's the point. The Bible is clear on what will happen if a person does that. We know Christ will not disown his own--those who belong to him through faith and trust in his blood. But how does the person who no longer trusts in the blood still belong to Christ? That is, by definition, how one 'belongs' to Christ.

I don't know, I don't know anyone who has done that. Do you?

I think so.

I'm not an evangelist. I don't personally bring people to Christ by leading them in the confession of their sins. God just doesn't use me that way. But the closest thing to that was a woman at work that I witnessed to heavily did come to Christ, even getting water baptized. She was the closest thing to me having a child in the faith.

Well, she fell away. Had an affair with the boss. Divorced her husband with whom she had two young children. Eventually married the boss. She openly embraced and confessed a life of partying and carrying on. Joked about having the devil in her, or something like that. If anyone I knew walked away from the faith it would have been her. Do I think she can still somehow be saved in that state? How could I think that? James says, 'no'. But like I said in a different thread, let's let God be the final judge at the end of all things when all attempts have been made to save her. For now I have no choice but to regard her as an unbeliever, as demonstrated by her behavior and rejection of the forgiveness she received.

 

[smaller]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Many believers openly disown and disavow many forms of 'phony' Jesus.

Every person in this thread has done that.

The non-OSAS crowd for example disowns and disavows the Savior who saves without reservations those who call upon Him to do so...

...and vice versa do we disown and disavow the opposing version of Jesus.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

By Birth we will always be the offspring of our parents...their deaths, adoption etc does not change the biological fact.

Jesus used the term 'born again'.... When are we not God's kids?

This sounds like I am osas ... In realty I am on the fence...

Me and you both, but I seem to be facing toward the non-OSAS side.

is it a matter of degree ?...

What does the term 'backslide' mean... IMO it means " I missed up " it does not mean I turned my back God......

If my salvation depended on me I would be doomed ... Salvation is not ours ..Salvation belongs to the Lord

Psa_3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Good works, we should do, are not unto salvation ... Salvation is only by His shed Blood .. When The Almighty applies that Blood can lowly man remove it?

Seems possible to me since that blood is applied by faith. And the Bible warns us to not lose our faith.

The Galatians were warned of the dire consequences of turning from their faith in Christ for justification, and back to the ceremonial law for justification. So it seems one can really lose their confidence in the blood of Christ for justification (and not stay in that justification). The same warning went out to the Hebrew church.

You miss the concept of free choice for 'BOTH' Adam & Eve. The forbidden tree was that free choice!
It was not what Christ God could or would do for them. And BOTH made a free choice to go against the Law of God!
And thus we find the devil believed before God! Gen. 3:4

--Elijah

Oh don't get me wrong. I believe that a turning away from God is the choice of the person who does it. Whether that be the Galatians, or the Hebrew Church, or me and you.

When I received Christ I was keenly aware of my choice in the matter. I could have just as easily NOT accepted Christ in that moment as accept him. The Spirit warned me He was not going to bother me for a very, very long time if I turned away this time.

 

[JLB]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Look closely at what you're saying.

"...anyone who was saved and then disowned..."

The argument is not that 'saved' people are disowned. That's impossible.

The argument is they reject their salvation, and then are disowned.

So I agree completely...'saved' people can not lose their salvation. Keep believing and you will never lose your salvation. Keep believing and you will never be disowned by Christ.

We can know if we're persevering in that belief--the belief that saves--by what we do. Somehow this only gets heard as 'earning your own salvation'. But the Bible plainly says we can recognize salvation by what it does.

A good example of this would be a site called - ExChristian.net.

It is very sad to see all the Christians that have "left" the church for many reasons.

Some of the threads are as follows -

What Killed Your Faith For Good?

Phases Of Deconversion

Here's To You, Ex-christians...



I believe we should be praying for these folks.


I know I have been.




JLB

 

[dadof10]

The point is, he thinks it's possible to "show" people the kind of faith we have. This is what the words actually say.

I'm not going to look to find the post. I already agreed with that, that one CAN show their faith to others, that would be stupid to say they can't. I think the apostles and saints who were willing to die for the cause of Christ 'showed' their faith.

Well, I thought we disagreed on this point. OK. If a person can "show" they have "saving faith", and then apostocizes, "were never saved in the first place" can't be a valid excuse. They HAD "saving faith" demonstrated by their works, and lost it. It's the only logical course.

 

[Deborah13]

If a person is justified by faith alone, and our "works" don't matter at all, even to "show" our justification is real, what's the sense in living our lives in any particularly holy way?

So are you praying for these two people that have some how misinterpreted "grace". I don't see this as a faith alone problem, I see this as a GRACE issue.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The non-OSAS crowd for example disowns and disavows the Savior who saves without reservations those who call upon Him to do so...

Wrong! Dead wrong!

Christ will in no way disown the one who calls upon Him.

Stop calling on him and you've got another story.


And this 'without reservation' thing? Since when is salvation ever given apart from the condition of trust in Christ's blood? Where is this in scripture, that I can be saved apart from faith in the blood of Christ? God will indeed reserve his salvation for those who 'call upon his name', trusting in the blood to forgive. There most certainly is a condition for salvation--it's called 'faith'. I disown and reject any gospel of Jesus that says you don't have to have faith to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

We see and hear of it happening all the time, but I have personally known a few who have been "saved" in every sense of the word, and have apostocized. One became an Atheist, and two became, what I like to call Apathetists. They both thought they were saved anyway...

I did speak to the woman that I knew who fell away later on, and she did think she was still cool with God. But if she knew the scriptures she'd know that she was not. But OSAS makes it so we don't have to consider those scriptures anyway.

I told her flat out that she was deceived (quoting a scripture I think) and left it at that.

 

[Deborah13]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Many believers openly disown and disavow many forms of 'phony' Jesus.

Every person in this thread has done that.

The non-OSAS crowd for example disowns and disavows the Savior who saves without reservations those who call upon Him to do so...

...and vice versa do we disown and disavow the opposing version of Jesus.

s

Interesting point. It all depends on how YOU/ME see Jesus. A personal relationship is just that personal, He deals with us as He will.

I can't know or determine what is in a person's heart no matter what I see on the outside.

It's pretty easy in some people lives to have a shiny, clean cup on the outside where the light shines for all to see. But it is on the inside, in the dark where intentions hide. Until the Lord shines His light on a particular corner one may not even be aware of the scum that has built up there.
We have to be brave enough to say, 'show me Lord'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Look closely at what you're saying.

"...anyone who was saved and then disowned..."

The argument is not that 'saved' people are disowned. That's impossible.

The argument is they reject their salvation, and then are disowned.

So I agree completely...'saved' people can not lose their salvation. Keep believing and you will never lose your salvation. Keep believing and you will never be disowned by Christ.

We can know if we're persevering in that belief--the belief that saves--by what we do. Somehow this only gets heard as 'earning your own salvation'. But the Bible plainly says we can recognize salvation by what it does.

A good example of this would be a site called - ExChristian.net.

It is very sad to see all the Christians that have "left" the church for many reasons.

Some of the threads are as follows -

What Killed Your Faith For Good?

Phases Of Deconversion

Here's To You, Ex-christians...



I believe we should be praying for these folks.


I know I have been.




JLB

Those are going to make for many hours of interesting reading.

We have to know how unbelievers think if we're going to be able to talk to them. Sadly, we're just not really equipped with the truth to respond to the lies and deceits that turn them off from God. In fact, we're equipped with so many misguided doctrines ourselves that keep them in their godlessness.

It hurts me to see that people have so many bad reasons to reject the truth when there should really be only one reason they do that--they want to stay in the joy of their sins. I can accept that. What I can't accept is they reject God because of some misguided doctrine of the church. That hurts. Makes me want to be the pastor I don't have the calling to be so the world can know the truth and make educated decisions about living for God or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But what does that same passage say about those who disown Christ?

Being faithless, and disowning Christ outright are two entirely different things.

I don't know, Jethro. I've never met anyone who was saved and then disowned, as you put it, Christ. Have you?

Many believers openly disown and disavow many forms of 'phony' Jesus.

Every person in this thread has done that.

The non-OSAS crowd for example disowns and disavows the Savior who saves without reservations those who call upon Him to do so...

...and vice versa do we disown and disavow the opposing version of Jesus.

s

Interesting point. It all depends on how YOU/ME see Jesus. A personal relationship is just that personal, He deals with us as He will.

I can't know or determine what is in a person's heart no matter what I see on the outside.

It's pretty easy in some people lives to have a shiny, clean cup on the outside where the light shines for all to see. But it is on the inside, in the dark where intentions hide. Until the Lord shines His light on a particular corner one may not even be aware of the scum that has built up there.
We have to be brave enough to say, 'show me Lord'.

But people twist this to think they can be bad people and still be good with God. The Bible is very clear about this...you're kidding yourself. Unfortunately, we don't see much 'show me Lord' in regard that. The suggestion is we can thank OSAS for that.