The Ideal Church

[th1b.taylor]

Every Christian will here or there become grounded in the basics of the faith, they are that important. The basics are very simple;

We, every one of us, owe a debt to God for our sins.
Jesus, is the Son of God, the Father.
No man (generic) will live in Heaven except they accept the truth of Jesus.
Jesus was born of a woman that had no sex, Mary was a virgin.
Jesus descended into the grave for only three days.
Jesus rose after three days and ascended into Heaven where He received His Glorified Body.
Jesus will return for His followers.

There are many to disagree with me on this but if you have these in their proper alignment and have prayed a sinner's prayer, you are saved. I'm often known as a strange duck because of my distinction between the Bride of the Christ and the Saved Man. My base scripture does, however, stand and to this point neither man nor Spirit has shown me different.

The reference is Matthew 22:1-14, the parable of the Wedding Feast. My position is that not every man saved is a member of the Bride of the Christ. I know from the past 23 years of daily study that except one stands the Great White throne Judgement (which I place in Heaven) he or she will remain in Heaven for Eternity. In the Feast Parable, there are a great multitude of guests when we translate the earthly example into Heavenly reality and the members of the Bride are few.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I was partially joking. (Is joking is synonymous to "trying to be cute"?)

Of course I don't go to church primarily for coffee (although the option of having coffee and cookies between and after the services serves the fellowship in my church a lot) or heavy metal worship music (there is probably some church somewhere in the world that has metal praise music, but I have yet to find that awesome church).The other part was quite serious.

The point is that obviously all those things allenwynne mentioned in his opening post are not bad per se. It's not bad to get the kind of worship music you like, it's not bad to get a minstry of your liking, or positive feedback from and agreement with others. It's also not bad to be fed the things you want, if you want the right things. Neither of those things are sin and will drag people into damnation. There is nothing wrong with church being "fun". But if those things become the main focus of why we attend a church, or the main reason why we choose to belong to a certain church rather than another one then something is wrong.
A church would be ideal, if it teaches the word, worships in truth and spirit, encourages everyone to grow closer to Christ, and offers a healthy and supporting fellowship (that includes the option of telling your sister or brother that they are not so great guys or gals when they keep sinning). Everything else is just an outward addition. Those outward additions (like a super awesome perfect worship band and limitless resources for ministry) aren't bad and it'd be a lie to say they are irrelevant for people's motivation to attend a church, but when the outward things outweigh the core things, i.e. the truthful encounter with the Lord, then we are on a downhill slope. For example, when telling each other how great we are becomes so important that we forget to point each other to our flaws or errors we would actually get into the way of spiritual growth and may even encourage sin.

Jethro already pointed out the ambivalences in allenwynne's post, so I thought instead of repeating what he said it'd be okay to post a more lighthearted comment.

And the light hearted always has it's place but I pray I never go to a place where people slap me on the back, give me attaboys and fear holding my feet to the fire. I have been there and God called me out of that place of zero growth. My brothers are not afraid to point out my short-commings and it has made to to grow, pray and repent.

God bless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I was partially joking. (Is joking is synonymous to "trying to be cute"?)

Then you were being partially cute, lol.

...or heavy metal worship music (there is probably some church somewhere in the world that has metal praise music, but I have yet to find that awesome church).

We all have to be careful to not confuse music we like and prefer with true worship, as if they are one and the same thing. I notice from people who attend mega churches that they equate good music with good worship. They say the worship was good because the music was good. But that's just not categorically true. I've been in tears of worship at common everyday people with a mic in their hands singing a Christian song from their hearts in every key but the one they're supposed to be in...and I called it worship, because it was.

Actually, a church should be striving for neutral music--music that you neither adore, nor despise. Both of those distract from actually worshiping God in song. I personally believe a kind of easy listening, light rock music is probably best for creating a musically neutral worship service. It seems to link the hard core traditionalist with the hard core head bangers, and everybody in between in regard to worship music that is acceptable and conducive to true spiritual worship and connection with God through the Holy Spirit.

The point is that obviously all those things allenwynne mentioned in his opening post are not bad per se. It's not bad to get the kind of worship music you like....

It seems too many people equate entertainment with worship. They measure worship by how much they were entertained and pleased by the music. It just doesn't work that way. But the mega churches are doing little to teach the church the truth about it. And I think it's because mega churches are evangelistically centered, meaning they're purposely entertaining the mostly unsaved crowds that attend with music in the hope of drawing them in, and erroneously equating that to worship.

, it's not bad to get a minstry of your liking, or positive feedback from and agreement with others. It's also not bad to be fed the things you want, if you want the right things. Neither of those things are sin and will drag people into damnation.

You're right, it's not about damnation (there's that 'either/or' thinking that seems to be so entrenched in Christians). It's about really finding God in worship vs. missing him but thinking you met him simply because you liked the music.

There is nothing wrong with church being "fun". But if those things become the main focus of why we attend a church, or the main reason why we choose to belong to a certain church rather than another one then something is wrong.

But to teach that truth to the church I think we need to find the courage to back off the 'fun' part a bit.

It reminds me of only feeding infants and toddlers apple sauce so they'll like eating.

...outward additions (like a super awesome perfect worship band...

How about an anointed worship band? I suspect few can tell the real difference between the two these days.

Jethro already pointed out the ambivalences in allenwynne's post, so I thought instead of repeating what he said it'd be okay to post a more lighthearted comment.

Claudya, for as liberal as you are, you got a pretty good head on your shoulders. I'm confident you wouldn't just be repeating what I said but could add additional insight and inspiration to the discussion.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I was partially joking. (Is joking is synonymous to "trying to be cute"?)

Of course I don't go to church primarily for coffee (although the option of having coffee and cookies between and after the services serves the fellowship in my church a lot) or heavy metal worship music (there is probably some church somewhere in the world that has metal praise music, but I have yet to find that awesome church).The other part was quite serious.

The point is that obviously all those things allenwynne mentioned in his opening post are not bad per se. It's not bad to get the kind of worship music you like, it's not bad to get a minstry of your liking, or positive feedback from and agreement with others. It's also not bad to be fed the things you want, if you want the right things. Neither of those things are sin and will drag people into damnation. There is nothing wrong with church being "fun". But if those things become the main focus of why we attend a church, or the main reason why we choose to belong to a certain church rather than another one then something is wrong.
A church would be ideal, if it teaches the word, worships in truth and spirit, encourages everyone to grow closer to Christ, and offers a healthy and supporting fellowship (that includes the option of telling your sister or brother that they are not so great guys or gals when they keep sinning). Everything else is just an outward addition. Those outward additions (like a super awesome perfect worship band and limitless resources for ministry) aren't bad and it'd be a lie to say they are irrelevant for people's motivation to attend a church, but when the outward things outweigh the core things, i.e. the truthful encounter with the Lord, then we are on a downhill slope. For example, when telling each other how great we are becomes so important that we forget to point each other to our flaws or errors we would actually get into the way of spiritual growth and may even encourage sin.

Jethro already pointed out the ambivalences in allenwynne's post, so I thought instead of repeating what he said it'd be okay to post a more lighthearted comment.

Claudya, today's your birthday!
Happy birthday!
Alles Gute zum Geburtstag!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Then you were being partially cute, lol.



We all have to be careful to not confuse music we like and prefer with true worship, as if they are one and the same thing. I notice from people who attend mega churches that they equate good music with good worship. They say the worship was good because the music was good. But that's just not categorically true. I've been in tears of worship at common everyday people with a mic in their hands singing a Christian song from their hearts in every key but the one they're supposed to be in...and I called it worship, because it was.

Actually, a church should be striving for neutral music--music that you neither adore, nor despise. Both of those distract from actually worshiping God in song. I personally believe a kind of easy listening, light rock music is probably best for creating a musically neutral worship service. It seems to link the hard core traditionalist with the hard core head bangers, and everybody in between in regard to worship music that is acceptable and conducive to true spiritual worship and connection with God through the Holy Spirit.



It seems too many people equate entertainment with worship. They measure worship by how much they were entertained and pleased by the music. It just doesn't work that way. But the mega churches are doing little to teach the church the truth about it. And I think it's because mega churches are evangelistically centered, meaning they're purposely entertaining the mostly unsaved crowds that attend with music in the hope of drawing them in, and erroneously equating that to worship.



You're right, it's not about damnation (there's that 'either/or' thinking that seems to be so entrenched in Christians). It's about really finding God in worship vs. missing him but thinking you met him simply because you liked the music.




But to teach that truth to the church I think we need to find the courage to back off the 'fun' part a bit.

It reminds me of only feeding infants and toddlers apple sauce so they'll like eating.




How about an anointed worship band? I suspect few can tell the real difference between the two these days.



Claudya, for as liberal as you are, you got a pretty good head on your shoulders. I'm confident you wouldn't just be repeating what I said but could add additional insight and inspiration to the discussion.

Your reasoning is why I have removed myself from all worship teams. I'm told I have a fantastic voice and style (bad) and I found the Worship Service had began to be about me and that is, in no manor, good. And this way I get to sit at the rear of the Church and just pour my heart into Worship, the Worship of God. I can lift my hands to God and be unseen.

 

[th1b.taylor]

This thread has brought light to this issue.
I was being somewhat flippant.
I was trying to point out how we can sometimes put ourselves first instead of others.

That is what I saw in your post.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I was trying to point out how we can sometimes put ourselves first instead of others.

Oh.

I was too humble to see that. My bad.

 

[Tony Hyman]

Jethro Says: "It seems too many people equate entertainment with worship. They measure worship by how much they were entertained and pleased by the music. It just doesn't work that way. But the mega churches are doing little to teach the church the truth about it. And I think it's because mega churches are evangelistically centered, meaning they're purposely entertaining the mostly unsaved crowds that attend with music in the hope of drawing them in, and erroneously equating that to worship. "

Music is definitly a powerful tool used as a marketing tool in most crowd drawing situations.Churches being no exeption ,I believe.As Jethro says if I understand correctly is that the "tool" used must not overshadow the main objective which is The Message and Word Of God.The "tool "can also be a dynamic charismatic(talented) speaker who has the crowds rolling with laughter and hanging on every word that he says and the chickes or guys freaking out over his or her highlited hairstyle as opposed to a traditional bo "Though Shalt Not" Winston Churchill type ,sticking to the well prepared speech notes.Make no mistake Sir Winston was a great speech icon along with J.F.K. from what Ive read and heard.
Well the reality is that people either buy into something or they dont for whatever personal reasons or taste ,if music is one of the draw cards then it should geared to satisfy the tastes relavant to the message or sermon ,in the case with Churches.I believe the balans between The Word and the Style of Music should be carefully pre-planned as was the case back in the 1600-1700 's where Bach(Lutheran) composed pieces on a regular basis for specific sermons eg .Cantata 147 (Jesus Joy) Handel much the same in England.
They played the popular style of their time.Bach was even seen to be old-fashioned by some .My point therefore is that the choice of music must relate to the message as a package where personal ego's , jealousys and other human self-sering hang-ups be cast aside (both congregation and the preaching team) to the Glory Of God ,and His Word.Easier said than done , but then so was getting to the moon, but Armstrong and the team did it back then.

 

[Deborah13]

Claudya, today's your birthday!
Happy birthday!
Alles Gute zum Geburtstag!

Claudya

Happy Birthday!!

 

[evenifigoalone]

The too much focus on fun thing seems to be a problem with a lot of youth groups, too. I bet that's one reason why the pastor at my mom's church was against them.

Actually, a church should be striving for neutral music--music that you neither adore, nor despise. Both of those distract from actually worshiping God in song. I personally believe a kind of easy listening, light rock music is probably best for creating a musically neutral worship service. It seems to link the hard core traditionalist with the hard core head bangers, and everybody in between in regard to worship music that is acceptable and conducive to true spiritual worship and connection with God through the Holy Spirit.

True enough that soft-rock type stuff is a nice in-between for traditional and contemporary fans. In most cases, anyway...some still consider that too much rock'n'roll. As in, they are against drums, and if you have a guitar it darned sure better not be an electric one.

If I happened to see band leading worship with metal, I'd be curious to see what it was like. lol I've had worshipful moments in regards to a few hard rock or metal songs...I think possibly the "a few" thing is mostly because the lyrics in most tend not to not really be intended for worship. Some definitely are (I could name a few songs and one band in particular), but most song lyrics and bands in that genre of Christian music are not something I think you could really use as a praise song...I mean, most of them don't seem to be made for that use.

 

[farouk]

..
If I happened to see band leading worship with metal, I'd be curious to see what it was like. lol I've had worshipful moments in regards to a few hard rock or metal songs...I think possibly the "a few" thing is mostly because the lyrics in most tend not to not really be intended for worship. Some definitely are (I could name a few songs and one band in particular), but most song lyrics and bands in that genre of Christian music are not something I think you could really use as a praise song...I mean, most of them don't seem to be made for that use.

From what you've said in the past also, seems like hard rock and metal style has opened up a whole new world of Christian music for you that resonates with you greatly.

Can you give one or two examples of the hard rock and metal songs that have givenn you worshipful moments?

I think John 4 is a good guidline: worship is 'in spirit and in truth'.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Can you give one or two examples of the hard rock and metal songs that have givenn you worshipful moments?

The first is a Disciple song--and Bible-based lyrics is more or less typical for them.

The second is by Skillet. Skillet tends to cater to both the secular crowd and the Christian one, and while many of their songs can be interpreted either way (like the second example above), a good number of them have little to nothing to do with spirituality. ("Don't Wake Me", Should've When You Could've", "Those Nights", "Say Goodbye", "The Older I Get", and others. These songs are definitely about human relationships and not spiritual ones. I like several of these songs, but it goes without saying they wouldn't be suitable for worship.)

 

[farouk]

The first is a Disciple song--and Bible-based lyrics is more or less typical for them.

The second is by Skillet. Skillet tends to cater to both the secular crowd and the Christian one, and while many of their songs can be interpreted either way (like the second example above), a good number of them have little to nothing to do with spirituality. ("Don't Wake Me", Should've When You Could've", "Those Nights", "Say Goodbye", "The Older I Get", and others. These songs are definitely about human relationships and not spiritual ones. I like several of these songs, but it goes without saying they wouldn't be suitable for worship.)

Interesting; thanks a lot.

So do you think that you rapidly deepening appreciation for Christian hard rock and metal tracks that have given you worshipful moments, kind of coincided with your change of churches? or maybe did it happen when you came from being an adolescent to an adult?

(Maybe it's a dumb question, or an unanswerable question, or whatever.)

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Interesting; thanks a lot.

So do you think that you rapidly deepening appreciation for Christian hard rock and metal tracks that have given you worshipful moments, kind of coincided with your change of churches? or maybe did it happen when you came from being an adolescent to an adult?

(Maybe it's a dumb question, or an unanswerable question, or whatever.)

Blessings.

You've asked me before...

I don't know if I'd say that. As far as my old church is concerned, disagreeing with them about certain styles of music being unacceptable was a step, I suppose. They were against any and all rock, including soft rock--claimed that it had some sort of demonic power, all of it. And that no real worship was or could be involved in it. I KNEW that was wrong because I had been to worship services playing Christian rock--and worshiped to it. And I knew and felt a definite difference between worship and just liking a music style. (Although sometimes I did wonder if they were right and wondered if I should stop going to the youth Bible study.)

But, no--it didn't stop me from attending. I kept going for another year or two without a thought of leaving until towards the end of that time frame. And there were a lot of other reasons involved.
In the end, my reason for leaving was mostly about them teaching things that just weren't feeding me spiritually. It wasn't just that I disagreed with several of the non-doctrinal matters being taught.


All that said, most of my worship experiences have been with the softer stuff. Christian hard rock/metal bands tend to have a somewhat different focus on their lyrics and as I've said, much of it isn't really meant for worship. Usually when I listen to it, it's for fun. "Oh yeah this is my jam!" kinda fun.
Disciple bridges the gap more, though. Their songs tend to be more explicitly God-honoring.


Also, I like a variety of music. There are other genres which I used to think didn't appeal to me--only to be proven wrong in some way later on. I've found I like at least a little from nearly every genre.

 

[farouk]

You've asked me before...

I don't know if I'd say that. As far as my old church is concerned, disagreeing with them about certain styles of music being unacceptable was a step, I suppose. They were against any and all rock, including soft rock--claimed that it had some sort of demonic power, all of it. And that no real worship was or could be involved in it. I KNEW that was wrong because I had been to worship services playing Christian rock--and worshiped to it. And I knew and felt a definite difference between worship and just liking a music style. (Although sometimes I did wonder if they were right and wondered if I should stop going to the youth Bible study.)

But, no--it didn't stop me from attending. I kept going for another year or two without a thought of leaving until towards the end of that time frame. And there were a lot of other reasons involved.
In the end, my reason for leaving was mostly about them teaching things that just weren't feeding me spiritually. It wasn't just that I disagreed with several of the non-doctrinal matters being taught.


All that said, most of my worship experiences have been with the softer stuff. Christian hard rock/metal bands tend to have a somewhat different focus on their lyrics and as I've said, much of it isn't really meant for worship. Usually when I listen to it, it's for fun. "Oh yeah this is my jam!" kinda fun.
Disciple bridges the gap more, though. Their songs tend to be more explicitly God-honoring.


Also, I like a variety of music. There are other genres which I used to think didn't appeal to me--only to be proven wrong in some way later on. I've found I like at least a little from nearly every genre.

Thoughtful post from both some already referred to but also even new angles; thanks.

Yes, I knew you left the other church for a variety of reasons; I guess I was looking particularly at the musical one.

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As Jethro says if I understand correctly is that the "tool" used must not overshadow the main objective which is The Message and Word Of God.

I couldn't have said it better.

My point therefore is that the choice of music must relate to the message as a package where personal ego's , jealousys and other human self-sering hang-ups be cast aside (both congregation and the preaching team) to the Glory Of God ,and His Word.Easier said than done , but then so was getting to the moon, but Armstrong and the team did it back then.

It seems most worship services I've attended ended up being more like Apollo 13.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

True enough that soft-rock type stuff is a nice in-between for traditional and contemporary fans. In most cases, anyway...some still consider that too much rock'n'roll. As in, they are against drums, and if you have a guitar it darned sure better not be an electric one.

This is true. A drummer, if you have one, should play in a subdued jazz style. This seems to take the edge off of those opposed to drummers in worship (I'm one of them). And truthfully, an electric guitar is usually like the drums--they get played in a brash over-bearing way that distracts from the worship, and, depending on whether you like that kind of guitar playing or not, will cause you to either hate it or adore it and you'll be distracted from actually worshiping. An electric acoustic guitar is the way to go. It's a good bridge between electric and acoustic styles of playing where the church can meet in the middle.

If I happened to see band leading worship with metal, I'd be curious to see what it was like. lol I've had worshipful moments in regards to a few hard rock or metal songs...I think possibly the "a few" thing is mostly because the lyrics in most tend not to not really be intended for worship. Some definitely are (I could name a few songs and one band in particular), but most song lyrics and bands in that genre of Christian music are not something I think you could really use as a praise song...I mean, most of them don't seem to be made for that use.

What you're describing here is the difference between Christian worship and Christian entertainment. There's nothing wrong with Christian entertainment, just as long as it's understood that's what it is. I have listened to music by Christian artists that I liked, and even caused me to think about and meditate on God, but I knew it was hardly worship music that I could bring into the church and expect everybody to warm up to and worship God corporately through. All of us have to acknowledge the difference, and when it comes to corporate worship leave our personal tastes in entertainment out of it--even if we personally are able to worship God through it.

 

[evenifigoalone]

All of us have to acknowledge the difference, and when it comes to corporate worship leave our personal tastes in entertainment out of it--even if we personally are able to worship God through it.

True enough. That's why I don't think a heavy metal band would go over well in a local church worship service. Unless maybe the audience was full of people who liked it and it held no hindrance to them, but that wouldn't happen in a general church setting. Maybe at a concert, if the band was focusing on worship. But most of them, from what I've seen, are more about entertainment. (Thanks for supplying the word that was on the tip of my tongue but just out of reach.) Which is cool, if I was against that I wouldn't go to such concerts or be listening to the music.

Anyway I have to go head off to church now.
My church tends to play both contemporary and hymns, and the instruments used are a piano (sometimes with a keyboard), a guitar (usually acoustic), and an electric drum set. If the youth group is involved, the song service will lean more toward the contemporary side. Once a month we lead Sunday night worship.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I don't want to pull this thread too off topic since the main topic is churches, but it occurred to me in church this morning that the Psalms talk about worshiping God with musical instruments.

 

[farouk]

I don't want to pull this thread too off topic since the main topic is churches, but it occurred to me in church this morning that the Psalms talk about worshiping God with musical instruments.

Psalm 150?

Some would say that the immediate context was Israel. (Depending on one's dispensational outlook.)