The Ideal Church

[jasoncran]

lol, no thanks.

 

[farouk]

lol, no thanks.

Well, some heavy metal can almost be 'traditional' in the sense that for example the classical music of Bach's counterpoint can sound quite similar.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

Well, some heavy metal can almost be 'traditional' in the sense that for example the classical music of Bach's counterpoint can sound quite similar.

Blessings.

uhm. I grew up listening to slayer, black Sabbath, metallica, so I do know what it is. my grandson was surprised I knew about slayer

 

[farouk]

uhm. I grew up listening to slayer, black Sabbath, metallica, so I do know what it is. my grandson was surprised I knew about slayer

You're an expert, too...

 

[jasoncran]

hardly. I heard them but it wasn't like it was common then in the 80's to hear them on the radio.i cant recall when started listening them a lot more but I did listen to them in the army afterwards.

 

[farouk]

hardly. I heard them but it wasn't like it was common then in the 80's to hear them on the radio.i cant recall when started listening them a lot more but I did listen to them in the army afterwards.

I think you quite like heavy metal.hard rock, in any case, don't you?

There's a Christian rock festival soon called Winter Jam, so I hear, someplace in the South.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

I think you quite like heavy metal.hard rock, in any case, don't you?

Blessings.

did. I was mostly into Iron Maiden
I more soft now. the modern stuff even Christian so much yelling and not much art do it. case in point!
iron maiden's 666 the number of the beast. the rhyme of the ancient mariner(actually able to understand that and the poem isn't changed) aces high. the prisoner and back in the village.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yeah, that's what it should be. Feed me coffee and cookies every sunday morning after the service, have a heavy metal worship band and tell each other how much they love each other despite their flaws and give people room to grow into responsibility and knowledge of their spiritual gifts.
What could be wrong with that?

I trust you're trying to be cute.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I wouldn't mind attending a church using heavy metal for worship, specially with lyrics like these: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/disciple/beautifulscars.html http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/disciple/onceandforall.html
Very worshipful and God-honoring lyrics.

Not many church people are going to go for that, though, I don't think. Otherwise such a church would already exist. Although you'd think one would, since the genre has a large following. Not sure if it's as large as mainstream CCM, though. And most churches that accept CCM go for mainstream, more or less.

Anyway, it shouldn't be the type of music that decides one's church home. I don't attend church because I like or dislike the music.

IMO, and this may have already been said, the ideal church doesn't exist. No one can be the ideal person, or make an ideal congregation. We're too human and fallible.

And yet, I do see the body of Christ working together. The church is all over the world, we have brothers and sisters in Christ all over the world. Lately I'm struck by how incredible that is.

 

[Tony Hyman]

Taylor Says"Tony,
Be careful with that book. I was a member of one rapidly growing Church Family when the son of our pastor introduced his dad to the book and Rick Warren.

As soon as he began to follow Rick, God remove the Candle Stand from our church and it exists no more. And Rick has said, several times, that there are many paths to Heaven, once on the Larry King show. God may forgive him but I can not trust his writings."

That might well be the case with regard to the Larry King Show, Taylor and the effects that the said book might have had on your particular situation.I am well aware of Mr Warren's ex post facto opinions on the issue of "Christislam" and the can of worms pertaining to those views regardless of God's strict instructions under John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
I have taken the liberty to post this verse to the learned Brother Warren on his site under that topic.Whether or not he agrees I cant say within the context of that discussion.
Now ,the context of this thread can it be said that everything that Rick Warren writes or wrote is to be rejected?I find nothing in that particular book which bears false guidance in any way whatsoever.The point here is whether Rick Warren is right or wrong in stating that "there is no such thing as a perfect church".

Any other views which he might hold subsequent to the book's writing ought not to affect the validity of of what He states in that book.
I draw an analogy to Calvin .Should we ignore all His writings (Institutes Of The Christian Religion)because he also had a hand in having non-believer burned at the stake way back in the Reformation Days,The Swiss have apologised for this deed by Calvin ,by erecting a monument of repentance around 1900.
So I believe we should not reject ,everything that a fellow Christian Brother says or writes because of some deed which he dose subsequent,or prior to that publication which we might or might not agree with.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Taylor Says"Tony,
Be careful with that book. I was a member of one rapidly growing Church Family when the son of our pastor introduced his dad to the book and Rick Warren.

As soon as he began to follow Rick, God remove the Candle Stand from our church and it exists no more. And Rick has said, several times, that there are many paths to Heaven, once on the Larry King show. God may forgive him but I can not trust his writings."

That might well be the case with regard to the Larry King Show, Taylor and the effects that the said book might have had on your particular situation.I am well aware of Mr Warren's ex post facto opinions on the issue of "Christislam" and the can of worms pertaining to those views regardless of God's strict instructions under John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
I have taken the liberty to post this verse to the learned Brother Warren on his site under that topic.Whether or not he agrees I cant say within the context of that discussion.
Now ,the context of this thread can it be said that everything that Rick Warren writes or wrote is to be rejected?I find nothing in that particular book which bears false guidance in any way whatsoever.The point here is whether Rick Warren is right or wrong in stating that "there is no such thing as a perfect church".

Any other views which he might hold subsequent to the book's writing ought not to affect the validity of of what He states in that book.
I draw an analogy to Calvin .Should we ignore all His writings (Institutes Of The Christian Religion)because he also had a hand in having non-believer burned at the stake way back in the Reformation Days,The Swiss have apologised for this deed by Calvin ,by erecting a monument of repentance around 1900.
So I believe we should not reject ,everything that a fellow Christian Brother says or writes because of some deed which he dose subsequent,or prior to that publication which we might or might not agree with.

This is the wrong string for any more than a mere mention of caution and I'll let it be right there. We should be careful, not, to derail this string. I'll try to remember your stance.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I trust you're trying to be cute.

I gots the feeling she's serious.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So I believe we should not reject ,everything that a fellow Christian Brother says or writes because of some deed which he dose subsequent,or prior to that publication which we might or might not agree with.

I think Taylor's point in regard to the OP would be that an ideal church must have some basic, indisputable facts supporting it--like how a person gets saved. Lots of things in friendly dispute on top of that would not necessarily cause the church to not be 'ideal'.

 

[th1b.taylor]

...edited ... In my Church Family we have a Pastor with young children and a Music Director that also is in that age group, so our music is a mixture of Contemporary and Traditional. There is a member that goes early to make hot coffee for the Sunday School but from there, services are very traditional.

Our Pastoral Leader was brought on board to grow the Church for tomorrow while, also, serving us old foxes and he preaches Hell Fire and Damnation to both the old and the new.

When in committee, he was the second choice with six members favoring an older, less stimulating preacher that follows his corporate lawyer wife across the world with me being the only descenting vote. When the Search Committee went to hear both preach, God changed the final vote to a unanimous vote for the young teacher, tickling me to death, I like 7/0 votes.

He is completely basic in his teaching and that is good for all growing Christians.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah, that's what it should be. Feed me coffee and cookies every sunday morning after the service, have a heavy metal worship band and tell each other how much they love each other despite their flaws and give people room to grow into responsibility and knowledge of their spiritual gifts.
What could be wrong with that?

Other than the Heavy metal, I'm right with you girl. :nod

Rom_5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[jasoncran]

she is talking about fellowship and also where people simply love each other and spur one to use their gift for the lord.

 

[Deborah13]

I tried that once on here. I asked if someone could explain the basics and explain or give a 'skim read', of the entire bible in a simple message, but i never got anything, so i just ended up making a fool of myself. I would write what i thought was right only to get proven wrong time and time again. There is nothing wrong with being proven wrong, but knowing the basics would have been a good start. So i ended up reading the entire book myself. Still taking many things in the wrong context but learning a heap at the same time.

I have edited many posts because of this single reason. When i first got here months ago i knew not a single thing about anything. I had heard of someone called Jesus but that was it. I have mellowed out a bit now and think im better off reading posts than posting on scripture these days.

Suppose thats just part of learning something new.

And we are so glad to have you here.
There have been many times you have kept us on our toes. That's good for all of us.
God Bless kiwidan, don't you dare stop posting. I know it's not anywhere as good as God's love for you but we love and need you, too. Oh, guess what we probably wouldn't love you as much as we do if God had not worked His love in our hearts.

 

[th1b.taylor]

...edited ... In my Church Family we have a Pastor with young children and a Music Director that also is in that age group, so our music is a mixture of Contemporary and Traditional. There is a member that goes early to make hot coffee for the Sunday School but from there, services are very traditional.

Our Pastoral Leader was brought on board to grow the Church for tomorrow while, also, serving us old foxes and he preaches Hell Fire and Damnation to both the old and the new.

When in committee, he was the second choice with six members favoring an older, less stimulating preacher that follows his corporate lawyer wife across the world with me being the only descenting vote. When the Search Committee went to hear both preach, God changed the final vote to a unanimous vote for the young teacher, tickling me to death, I like 7/0 votes.

He is completely basic in his teaching and that is good for all growing Christians.

The part about the John Kennedy quote was very important but I also notice the post telling me to keep my mouth shut is gone so...

 

[Claudya]

I trust you're trying to be cute.

I was partially joking. (Is joking is synonymous to "trying to be cute"?)

Of course I don't go to church primarily for coffee (although the option of having coffee and cookies between and after the services serves the fellowship in my church a lot) or heavy metal worship music (there is probably some church somewhere in the world that has metal praise music, but I have yet to find that awesome church).The other part was quite serious.

The point is that obviously all those things allenwynne mentioned in his opening post are not bad per se. It's not bad to get the kind of worship music you like, it's not bad to get a minstry of your liking, or positive feedback from and agreement with others. It's also not bad to be fed the things you want, if you want the right things. Neither of those things are sin and will drag people into damnation. There is nothing wrong with church being "fun". But if those things become the main focus of why we attend a church, or the main reason why we choose to belong to a certain church rather than another one then something is wrong.
A church would be ideal, if it teaches the word, worships in truth and spirit, encourages everyone to grow closer to Christ, and offers a healthy and supporting fellowship (that includes the option of telling your sister or brother that they are not so great guys or gals when they keep sinning). Everything else is just an outward addition. Those outward additions (like a super awesome perfect worship band and limitless resources for ministry) aren't bad and it'd be a lie to say they are irrelevant for people's motivation to attend a church, but when the outward things outweigh the core things, i.e. the truthful encounter with the Lord, then we are on a downhill slope. For example, when telling each other how great we are becomes so important that we forget to point each other to our flaws or errors we would actually get into the way of spiritual growth and may even encourage sin.

Jethro already pointed out the ambivalences in allenwynne's post, so I thought instead of repeating what he said it'd be okay to post a more lighthearted comment.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I was partially joking. (Is joking is synonymous to "trying to be cute"?)

Of course I don't go to church primarily for coffee (although the option of having coffee and cookies between and after the services serves the fellowship in my church a lot) or heavy metal worship music (there is probably some church somewhere in the world that has metal praise music, but I have yet to find that awesome church).The other part was quite serious.

The point is that obviously all those things allenwynne mentioned in his opening post are not bad per se. It's not bad to get the kind of worship music you like, it's not bad to get a minstry of your liking, or positive feedback from and agreement with others. It's also not bad to be fed the things you want, if you want the right things. Neither of those things are sin and will drag people into damnation. There is nothing wrong with church being "fun". But if those things become the main focus of why we attend a church, or the main reason why we choose to belong to a certain church rather than another one then something is wrong.
A church would be ideal, if it teaches the word, worships in truth and spirit, encourages everyone to grow closer to Christ, and offers a healthy and supporting fellowship (that includes the option of telling your sister or brother that they are not so great guys or gals when they keep sinning). Everything else is just an outward addition. Those outward additions (like a super awesome perfect worship band and limitless resources for ministry) aren't bad and it'd be a lie to say they are irrelevant for people's motivation to attend a church, but when the outward things outweigh the core things, i.e. the truthful encounter with the Lord, then we are on a downhill slope. For example, when telling each other how great we are becomes so important that we forget to point each other to our flaws or errors we would actually get into the way of spiritual growth and may even encourage sin.

Jethro already pointed out the ambivalences in allenwynne's post, so I thought instead of repeating what he said it'd be okay to post a more lighthearted comment.

This thread has brought light to this issue.
I was being somewhat flippant.
I was trying to point out how we can sometimes put ourselves first instead of others.