Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[gr8grace3]

Ok give me a example of nuts trying to earn their salvation by own. This is just a trick by grace-preachers to mock devoted believers. Why don't you understand that devil is working in this matter.

Live by the example of the early church. They devoted their quality time by meditating in the word and prayer and supplication and not just simply sitting and saying that God knows the hearts of all men.

One example~~And I Truly know that the Devil is at work in this, probably more so, the arrogance of man though.

jonahmano~~We must look all these things in the totality of the scriptures. And when we do that we understand that salvation is something more than belief. If it was just belief then surely the early church wouldn't have suffered so much persecution. They would have led a easy go life escaping persecution and being silent believers without making any noise but that was not the case. The early saints are the fine example what it means to become the sons of God. If it was only belief then God would have forgiven them even if the saints would have denied Christ when the sword was on the neck because God looks into the heart of a man.

But I believe looking at all the scriptures if you guys say that old testament is something to do with law then I will from Matthew to Revelation when the whole bible is read, looking into the totality of the scriptures, I believe that salvation is something more than belief where God's Grace and our faith is the first and prominent step to become the children of God and then comes attitude of obedience to His Word.

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has notbelieved in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

 

[eddif]

Bingo!! Thanks. There is NO WAY one who possesses eternal LIFE can end up in the second DEATH.

I wonder why these guys can't or won't see this.

FreeGrace

ETERNAL LIFE
35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:35-36 NKJ)
-----
Luke 20:33
A question was asked about the resurrection.

So yes verses 35-36 are after the resurrection, and after the judgement throne etc. it is all a done deal for eternity.

The resurrection, IMHO, is not passed already. I will be glad to see the resurrection (if I continue in the faith LOL).

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What verse mentions being "barred from having faith again". That's a new one to me.

"4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. " (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

How does it make no sense that because Christ died for ALL sin, that there is no more sacrifice for sin? The problem was that the Hebrew believers were turning back to the law and sacrifice, which is a waste of time, since Christ actually died for ALL sin.

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB caps in original)

The author is plainly saying that because of their willful sinning instead of a sacrifice for sins, there is the expectation of God's fiery Judgment--the Judgment that Christ's sacrifice would have rescued them from had it not been for these once sanctified, now ex-believers losing that saving sacrifice through their willful sinning. Now they have to face the Judgement without that sacrifice--or any sacrifice for sin. Ouch....that's scary.

I have thunked about it. My explanation stands. Since we know that the lake of fire is eternal, and therefore, no one can be "consumed" by it, all passages with this kind of language is referring to physical death, since we CAN be physically consumed, and our bodies completely consumed.

Think about it.

We don't need to debate the nature of the never-ending punishment that will be doled out to these ex-believers. As I've shown, since they sinned against the blood of Christ, they no longer have Christ's sacrifice for sin to deliver them from the coming Wrath of God. Debating the nature of that punishment doesn't change the fact that they are condemned, not saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Of course eternal rewards will be given in eternity, or the kingdom. I've never said otherwise.

I've shown clear verses that indicate the possibility of loss of rewards (1 Cor 3:14-15 and 2 Jn 8).

Which I've shown not to be OSAS verses.

Why isn't it possible for all those warning passages that you think refer to loss of salvation to be loss of reward?

Because, as I'm showing, those interpretations simply don't stand up to Biblical scrutiny.

Remember, there are no verses that actually and plainly say that salvation can be lost.

They only don't say that when OSAS redefines and/or ignores the plain words of those plain passages that say you can lose the grace of God in salvation after you have obtained it. .

The New Jerusalem is the new city that comes down from heaven to the new earth (Rev 21). All the OT believers were saved and resided in Paradise, or Abraham's bosom until Christ came and took them to heaven. So I don't know what your point is about no salvation outside of the NJ. Of course there has been.

Obviously, we've been talking about no salvation outside of the New Jerusalem AFTER the resurrection.

The Biblical point is that in eternity, all saved people will reside on the new earth where the NJ will exist.

You're purposely ignoring the scriptures that show when the inheritance, the New Jerusalem comes down you are either holy and living inside it, or you are unholy and living outside of it where there is eternal burning torment and damnation, not salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But why would a believer deny the deity of Christ?

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-29.htm
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God: this seems to be a stronger expression than crucifying him again, Hebrews 6:6 and is to be understood, not of what was in fact committed, but in will by persons; who, could they have had their will of him, would have pulled him from his throne, and trampled upon him: it is a phrase expressive of the utmost scorn, contempt, and ill usage; and which such are guilty of, who deny his deity, and eternal sonship; who render him useless in his offices, undervalue his sacrifice, despise his righteousness, and strip him of the glory of his person, office, and grace. And this is aggravated by his being the Son of God who is thus used, who became the son of man for the sake of men, is superior to men, and equal with God:

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-29.htm
and hath done despite unto the spirit of grace; by denying his being, deity, and personality; despising his powerful operations as enthusiasm; treating his extraordinary gifts as illusions; and ascribing his miracles to Satan, and representing the Gospel dictated by him as a fable, or a lie: and this is aggravated by his being "the spirit of grace"; the author, giver, and applier of all grace to the saints; and who therefore ought not to be in the least slighted, but highly esteemed and honoured; nor will such affronts go unpunished.

It isn't about denying the deity of Christ (although that could be one way that a believer could go back to unbelief).

What happens is the sanctified believer in Christ tramples on the blood that sanctified him by willfully sinning, showing contempt and ingratitude for the grace of God that sanctified them. You can't trample the grace of God treating it as an unholy thing and have that grace operating on your behalf at the same time. God will not allow it.

The grace of God was given to us to be holy and to cover the weaknesses and failures of believers clinging to the cross and growing up, glory to glory, into Christ. It was not given so believers can purposely live sinful lives and still be covered by God's forgiveness. That's the very license to sin the Bible says grace is NOT.

 

[DRS81]

It isn't about denying the deity of Christ (although that could be one way that a believer could go back to unbelief).

But how can a believer deny the deity of Christ. How is that possible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not talking about HIS PEOPLE (emphasis original) but de-saved people, huh?
"disowning" of Christ people, huh?

Correct. These are the people of God who then trample on the blood Christ and are tossed into the lake of fire as unbelievers who once did believe and were a part of the people of God, but lose that status through their denial and contempt for the blood of Christ that sanctified them.

The anti-OSAS point must be that Jesus' rescue and our destiny is not really a "rescue" or a "destiny' at all. What's the word... a chance?

No. Not just a chance. When you have faith, and you continue in that faith, you have the sure hope of salvation. Stop having faith and you do not have that sure hope anymore.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But how can a believer deny the deity of Christ. How is that possible.

For that particular way to deny Christ, the one who once did believe that Christ is deity now simply does not.

 

[DRS81]

For that particular way to deny Christ, the one who once did believe that Christ is deity now simply does not.

But how, if the holy spirit never leaves them, then how is that possible.

 

[JLB]

Not inheriting the kingdom means one thing = 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

We are told Not to grieve the Holy Spirit!

26 "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:26-32

...do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:1-7


Hear it is again very plain and clear!

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them


Therefore do not be partakers with them! WITH THEM!!!


WITH WHO?...THE SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE!


...who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God = Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


This scripture like the others, can not be refuted with scripture.

It can only be talked around, and explained away, with empty words.



Empty words that are as chaff on the summer threshing floor, that are blown away by the Spirit of Truth!



JLB

 

[Gregg]

(Rom 10:9 LITV)

"Because if you confess [aorist active subjunctive, 2nd person sing.] the Lord Jesus with your mouth,"
"and believe [aorist active subjunctive, 2nd person sing.] in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,"
. . . aorist active subjunctive - a condition [two here in this verse] not referencing or taking into account linear time, but rather pointing to a specific moment; it is the summary of an action [here 'confess' and 'believe'] without indicating continuation; the subjunctive use with 'ean' indicates a probable future condition, 3rd class conditional subjunctive; that future condition is given in the following phrase:

"you will be saved [future passive indicative]." - if the two prior conditions are met then what was probable will occur; the outcome of believing and confessing is guaranteed at the very moment the two prior conditions are met. There are no other conditions to negate, reverse, or influence this newly entered state of 'salvation' once it is entered into, once it is consummated. The stated outcome is salvation. Believers enter into Christ on this occasion - into the LIVING ONE, into the Resurrection and the Life, into the Firstborn of all creation.

Paul goes a little further in his account of the new birth:

- - -

(Rom 10:10 LITV)

"For with the heart one believes [present passive indicative, 3rd person] unto [eis] righteousness,"
. . . present passive indicative, 3rd person [impersonal] - faith is formed within the believer and he is declared righteous;

"and with the mouth one confesses [present passive indicative, 3rd person] unto [eis] salvation."
. . . present passive indicative, 3rd person [impersonal] - a saving knowledge of the LORD is formed within the believer and he is declared saved.

This verse is an intimate and insightful spiritual account of the very moment a believer is born again! It is the unadulterated Gospel of salvation; not merely implying continuation but unequivocally stating the perpetuity 'eternal life.'

 

[Deborah13]

Hebrews 6:6
"To renew them again unto repentance - As repentance is the first step that a sinner must take in order to return to God, and as sorrow for sin must be useless in itself unless there be a proper sacrificial offering, these having rejected the only available sacrifice, their repentance for sin, had they any, would be nugatory, and their salvation impossible on this simple account; and this is the very reason which the apostle immediately subjoins: -

Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God - They reject him on the ground that he was an impostor, and justly put to death. And thus they are said to crucify him to themselves - to do that in their present apostasy which the Jews did; and they show thereby that, had they been present when he was crucified, they would have joined with his murderers."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/hebrews/6.htm

Hebrews 10:26
"...This is the meaning of the apostle, and the case is that of a deliberate apostate - one who has utterly rejected Jesus Christ and his atonement, and renounced the whole Gospel system. It has nothing to do with backsliders in our common use of that term. A man may be overtaken in a fault, or he may deliberately go into sin, and yet neither renounce the Gospel, nor deny the Lord that bought him. His case is dreary and dangerous, but it is not hopeless; no case is hopeless but that of the deliberate apostate, who rejects the whole Gospel system, after having been saved by grace, or convinced of the truth of the Gospel. To him there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin; for there was but the One, Jesus, and this he has utterly rejected."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/hebrews/10.htm

 

[JLB]

(Rom 10:9 LITV)

"Because if you confess [aorist active subjunctive, 2nd person sing.] the Lord Jesus with your mouth,"
"and believe [aorist active subjunctive, 2nd person sing.] in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,"
. . . aorist active subjunctive - a condition [two here in this verse] not referencing or taking into account linear time, but rather pointing to a specific moment; it is the summary of an action [here 'confess' and 'believe'] without indicating continuation; the subjunctive use with 'ean' indicates a probable future condition, 3rd class conditional subjunctive, and is given in the following phrase:

"you will be saved [future passive indicative]." - if the two prior conditions are met then what was probable will occur; the outcome of believing and confessing is guaranteed at the very moment the two prior conditions are met. There are no other conditions to negate, reverse, or influence this newly entered state of 'salvation' once it is entered into, once it is consummated. The stated outcome is salvation. Believers enter into Christ on this occasion - into the LIVING ONE, into the Resurrection and the Life, into the Firstborn of all creation.

Paul goes a little further in his account of the new birth:

- - -

(Rom 10:10 LITV)

"For with the heart one believes [present passive indicative, 3rd person] unto [eis] righteousness,"
. . . present passive indicative, 3rd person [impersonal] - faith is formed within the believer and he is declared righteous;

"and with the mouth one confesses [present passive indicative, 3rd person] unto [eis] salvation."
. . . present passive indicative, 3rd person [impersonal] - a saving knowledge of the LORD is formed within the believer and he is declared saved.

This verse is an intimate and insightful spiritual account of the very moment a believer is born again! It is the unadulterated Gospel of salvation.

for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.


For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.



Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:1-7


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Hebrews 6:6
"To renew them again unto repentance - As repentance is the first step that a sinner must take in order to return to God, and as sorrow for sin must be useless in itself unless there be a proper sacrificial offering, these having rejected the only available sacrifice, their repentance for sin, had they any, would be nugatory, and their salvation impossible on this simple account; and this is the very reason which the apostle immediately subjoins: -

Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God - They reject him on the ground that he was an impostor, and justly put to death. And thus they are said to crucify him to themselves - to do that in their present apostasy which the Jews did; and they show thereby that, had they been present when he was crucified, they would have joined with his murderers."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/hebrews/6.htm

Hebrews 10:26
"...This is the meaning of the apostle, and the case is that of a deliberate apostate - one who has utterly rejected Jesus Christ and his atonement, and renounced the whole Gospel system. It has nothing to do with backsliders in our common use of that term. A man may be overtaken in a fault, or he may deliberately go into sin, and yet neither renounce the Gospel, nor deny the Lord that bought him. His case is dreary and dangerous, but it is not hopeless; no case is hopeless but that of the deliberate apostate, who rejects the whole Gospel system, after having been saved by grace, or convinced of the truth of the Gospel. To him there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin; for there was but the One, Jesus, and this he has utterly rejected."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/hebrews/10.htm

First off, we do not feel "sorry" for our sins, we change our mind about who Christ is. We do NOT have repentance of our sin. We have repentance of who we think Christ Is. Judas felt "sorry" for his sin, but never changed His mind about WHO the innocent man was that he betrayed.

There remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, Because Christ Paid for EVERY sin. Past present and future for EVERY man.

If any man Is saved by Grace and earned none of it , He cannot "earn his way out of Grace." He even paid for the sin of unbelief, unbelievers will get to compare their "good deeds" against the "good deed" of Christ.

 

[Gregg]

(Rom 10:9 LITV)

"Because if you confess [aorist active subjunctive, 2nd person sing.] the Lord Jesus with your mouth,"
"and believe [aorist active subjunctive, 2nd person sing.] in your heart that God raised Him from the dead,"
. . . aorist active subjunctive - a condition [two here in this verse] not referencing or taking into account linear time, but rather pointing to a specific moment; it is the summary of an action [here 'confess' and 'believe'] without indicating continuation; the subjunctive use with 'ean' indicates a probable future condition, 3rd class conditional subjunctive; that future condition is given in the following phrase:

"you will be saved [future passive indicative]." - if the two prior conditions are met then what was probable will occur; the outcome of believing and confessing is guaranteed at the very moment the two prior conditions are met. There are no other conditions to negate, reverse, or influence this newly entered state of 'salvation' once it is entered into, once it is consummated. The stated outcome is salvation. Believers enter into Christ on this occasion - into the LIVING ONE, into the Resurrection and the Life, into the Firstborn of all creation.

Paul goes a little further in his account of the new birth:

- - -

(Rom 10:10 LITV)

"For with the heart one believes [present passive indicative, 3rd person] unto [eis] righteousness,"
. . . present passive indicative, 3rd person [impersonal] - faith is formed within the believer and he is declared righteous;

"and with the mouth one confesses [present passive indicative, 3rd person] unto [eis] salvation."
. . . present passive indicative, 3rd person [impersonal] - a saving knowledge of the LORD is formed within the believer and he is declared saved.

This verse is an intimate and insightful spiritual account of the very moment a believer is born again! It is the unadulterated Gospel of salvation; not merely implying continuation but unequivocally stating the perpetuity 'eternal life.'

for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:1-7

JBL,

You didn't even respond to the post . . .

but merely pasted a screen full of repeated and contextually irrelevant words 4-5 minutes after my post appeared.

Have you efforts here really come to this?

 

[JLB]

JBL,

You didn't even respond to the post . . .

but merely pasted a screen full of repeated and contextually irrelevant words 4-5 minutes after my post appeared.

Have you efforts here really come to this?

More empty words...


JLB

 

[Gregg]

How long does it take for mindless argument to be exposed as outright deception?

Eternal life is just that - eternal. If you are born again then you can not lose salvation . . . period.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But how, if the holy spirit never leaves them, then how is that possible.

How a believer can turn away from the truth after they "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit" (Hebrews 6:4 NASB) is beyond my personal understanding. I just know the Bible talks about these sanctified, partakers of the Holy Spirit who do that.

 

[chessman]

Correct. These are the people of God who then trample on the blood Christ and are tossed into the lake of fire as unbelievers

You do realize that at the time Hebrews was written, the recipients would have said; "Lake of Fire", huh? The "Lake of Fire" is NOT what they would have understood Hebrews 10:27's fire to mean. It's a re-definition on your part to think it is. But you probably know this already.

The "lake of fire" is a term used only within the vision in John's Revelation of Christ given 90-95 A.D, 30 years after this epistle.

On the other hand, the Hebrew people, newly converted to Christians (HIS PEOPLE), who this Epistle was written to were quite familiar with God's fire, snuffing out people. Hebrews even calling God a consuming fire. Even consuming HIS PEOPLE and HIS sacrifices when necessary.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this, judgment, ​

Heb 10:27's "fire" means 1st death (everybody's destiny). It's illogical to think the author meant the Lake of Fire since Revelation hadn't even been written (visioned) yet.

You re-define it (Heb 10:27's fire) to mean Rev's 2nd death.

Why? Because there are no verses that speak of a saved person going to the Lake of Fire so you just pick this one out, as if it were talking about the Lake of Fire. It's clearly not.

You're not fooling anyone that's thinking this passage through, either.

 

[Gregg]

How a believer can turn away from the truth after they "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit" (Hebrews 6:4 NASB) is beyond my personal understanding. I just know the Bible talks about these sanctified, partakers of the Holy Spirit who do that.

What you are saying is opinion counter to the Scriptures.