Shouldn’t we embrace Arminianism?

OzSpen said:

Which point?

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Perseverance of the sAints

JohnDB said:

Look it all the dissenters.

Those who actually study beyond reading a commentary will likely not agree theologically with the church they attend. It's a natural and normal progression.

Doesn't mean that the people I sit next to are not my friends/family. We are all so wrapped up in each other's lives it's ridiculous. But often they have no clue as to what they believe or why they believe what little they do know.

That's normal theologies around the world. Found this attitude in every country I've visited. The hard core learned person is rare...they really don't make a church for people like us in every city in the world.

But just because I don't agree with the pastor on all theological positions doesn't mean that we don't agree on things like Love, altruistic endeavors, and encouragement of each other. Because we do agree with each other on these things. And we work diligently together on these things on a regular basis.

And that's what jasonc , wondering , and I have stumbled upon. We don't have to focus on the ways we are different and destroy each other...we can instead focus on the ways we are the same and do the difficult thing of building a community. It's easy to destroy, it's a lot more difficult to build.

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Agreed on all...
I'll only say that there is some doctrine I could live with...
and there is some doctrine I would not be able to live with.

Having said that, yes,,, no church is perfect and the good needs to be accepted and the bad needs to be ignored somewhat.

I have to attend a Catholic church....I don't even go on a regular basis, but I attend bible study and I study with a very learned monk/friar that is very enjoyable. We can agree on 95% on everything he says because he speaks of Christian ideas.

I had mentioned that I could accept purgatory better than determinism.
The other member brought up that it means the blood is not enough...
I didn't say I agreed with it, but just made a simple statement.
I know PRIESTS that don't believe in purgatory.

Plus, I don't think this is the place to have this discussion.
When someone says they don't believe in a particular doctrine,,,
the other person shouldn't get all bent out of shape and try to
protect theirs...this goes beyond a normal conversation and will
end up in an argument. Which I don't like.

jasonc said:

So because you attend that church despite not agreing with the typical Catholic position on things ,its ok but wouldn't attend a reformed one where eternal security is taught ,seldom in church is tulip even mentioned.

Funny they mention long suffering ,desiring men to repent ,living holy ,things I heard at the other churches.

Might want to stop just listening to a video or sermon meant for a theologic school.
And follow my pastor

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TULIP is NOT mentioned.
This is the problem.
WHY is it not mentioned if it's a reformed church?
I don't care for this....churches should be honest with their parishioners.

jasonc said:

Which you would have to since God just left the gentle nations that didn't get mentioned in,the prophets ,ie early,Greece,assyrria,before the time its mentioned and chaldea.Ashkenazi,sephardic and any,nations around .
Yet Romans one .

The problem with purgatory is that blood isn't good enough .


I don't have to answer 59,stop pinning,me on,it .knowing and hearing it doesn't,mean I believe it anymore then taking the 1200 bucks means I'm a Democrat

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Jason, don't you think that if you're going to a church that believes what is stated in post 59 then you should believe it too?

It seems like an important enough doctrine.
BTW,,,I don't believe purgatory exists,,,I'm sure you know this about me.

Anyway, why do you feel like you have to protect your church?
I don't feel like I have to protect any church.

I attended a Nazarene church in NY.
If someone doesn't like the Nazarene church, that's fine with me.

Why is this in the Theology forum? This discussion isn't theology.
Moving to Christian Talk and Advice.

wondering said:

Jason, don't you think that if you're going to a church that believes what is stated in post 59 then you should believe it too?

It seems like an important enough doctrine.
BTW,,,I don't believe purgatory exists,,,I'm sure you know this about me.

Anyway, why do you feel like you have to protect your church?
I don't feel like I have to protect any church.

I attended a Nazarene church in NY.
If someone doesn't like the Nazarene church, that's fine with me.

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Because my church is family .if you heard me say something you knew to be wrong about the Nazarene ,yes I knew that church we have one here .it is one a route and is the southern moat church on the water grid .you would correct me.

My pastor doesn't,make it point to nor did Calvin himself want it to named for him,and died having his grave unmarked and his followers honored him,against his wishes .

Calvim himself was. Not into the idea of limited atonement ,he doesn't mention it ,it was another who embraced it .

wondering said:

TULIP is NOT mentioned.
This is the problem.
WHY is it not mentioned if it's a reformed church?
I don't care for this....churches should be honest with their parishioners.

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BecAuse they don't have to every sermon mention it,clearly you havebt actually attended these or listened to them.

I learned because I asked for the statement of faith ,then I asked how hard core is it.the leadership as in pastoral its kinda required but he allows dissent and debate ,trust me he is more into unity in essentials then this which is a minor issue.

Stop painting the reformed with a broad brush .there are outliers on the spectrum of this debate


Hyper Calvinists exist here and hyper arminism
The primitive Baptist church is a hyper Calvinist,the other end is the Methodist

My church would be right of center with a lean to Calvin.

jasonc said:

Because my church is family .if you heard me say something you knew to be wrong about the Nazarene ,yes I knew that church we have one here .it is one a route and is the southern moat church on the water grid .you would correct me.

My pastor doesn't,make it point to nor did Calvin himself want it to named for him,and died having his grave unmarked and his followers honored him,against his wishes .

Calvim himself was. Not into the idea of limited atonement ,he doesn't mention it ,it was another who embraced it .

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OK. I understand that.
We also attribute to Arminius beliefs he did not have.
The titles Calvinist and Arminian have come to denote a system of beliefs.
We cannot go back and change this...it is what it is.

If I knew you stated something wrong about the Nazarene church, I'd state it and that would be it.
UNLESS you wanted to discuss the doctrine involved --- but not to protect the church.

Anyway, what did I say that was wrong?
I think I know the reformed faith pretty well.
I said you were a 3 point calvinist. It's not an insult.
You go to a reformed church...what am I supposed to believe?
I know you don't consider yourself a calvinist - I've known you long enough.
However, you SEEM to believe as one does.

jasonc said:

BecAuse they don't have to every sermon mention it,clearly you havebt actually attended these or listened to them.

I learned because I asked for the statement of faith ,then I asked how hard core is it.the leadership as in pastoral its kinda required but he allows dissent and debate ,trust me he is more into unity in essentials then this which is a minor issue.

Stop painting the reformed with a broad brush .there are outliers on the spectrum of this debate


Hyper Calvinists exist here and hyper arminism
The primitive Baptist church is a hyper Calvinist,the other end is the Methodist

My church would be right of center with a lean to Calvin.

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I have this suspicion that churches don't like to advertise that they're reformed.
There are churches in the south that were NOT calvinist and then a new pastor took over and before you knew it, he was teaching reformed doctrine and the congregation didn't even realize it. This bothers me.

I don't care to know what every title of every church teaches....
Personally, I think there are TOO MANY denominations.
I go by what a person tells me.
And you never did reply to post 59! (ha ha)

wondering said:

I have this suspicion that churches don't like to advertise that they're reformed.
There are churches in the south that were NOT calvinist and then a new pastor took over and before you knew it, he was teaching reformed doctrine and the congregation didn't even realize it. This bothers me.

I don't care to know what every title of every church teaches....
Personally, I think there are TOO MANY denominations.
I go by what a person tells me.
And you never did reply to post 59! (ha ha)

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Most people as my,pastor says ,don't even know the bible
.

Kindly,reread what john,said .my,pastor says that about any studied person ,most don't and won't


You have to want to know it.I,know it from here and before as I was raised in a cult .most of my churches bible study are shallow .my,pastor said I would find it that way since most don't know the bible .

Did you watch me in that sheol discussion.before we even did that I had to ask because of its depth to keep it simple.sheol was a one hour discussion .his wife learned from me.I,said despite have read and read a lot on shell,gan Eden ,paradise ,I still don't know it .

The lost want to know if You care not about some debate about how God works his plans out.

Its not hidden .morning star Presbyterian is part of the Scottish Westminster confession .pca,its break away is pcua. Rc sproul is pcua

They are tackling revelation ,should I undermine the leader and debate him on why futurism is off?
When I,myself not anyone can't say what it says. Now then that's where I am at .
The most simple man ,uneducated ,has taught me more about Jesus then some theological position lesson.

Love Jesus,I can't make it without him,he provided.yes a man without full,facilities has taught me much

wondering said:

OK. I understand that.
We also attribute to Arminius beliefs he did not have.
The titles Calvinist and Arminian have come to denote a system of beliefs.
We cannot go back and change this...it is what it is.

If I knew you stated something wrong about the Nazarene church, I'd state it and that would be it.
UNLESS you wanted to discuss the doctrine involved --- but not to protect the church.

Anyway, what did I say that was wrong?
I think I know the reformed faith pretty well.
I said you were a 3 point calvinist. It's not an insult.
You go to a reformed church...what am I supposed to believe?
I know you don't consider yourself a calvinist - I've known you long enough.
However, you SEEM to believe as one does.

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I'm a not.

1. Conditional election.I believe that
2.nope on eternal security
3.free will ,is neither Arminism or quite Calvinism.if you read my statements this is clear
4.while i do see humans from my war time and no man can convince me otherwise ,as dark,I also know that because of the fall we are able to do good.
5.limited atonement,nope
6.irresistible grace ,nope

jasonc said:

I'm a not.

1. Conditional election.I believe that
2.nope on eternal security
3.free will ,is neither Arminism or quite Calvinism.if you read my statements this is clear
4.while i do see humans from my war time and no man can convince me otherwise ,as dark,I also know that because of the fall we are able to do good.
5.limited atonement,nope
6.irresistible grace ,nope

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I also believe in conditional election.

I also cannot believe in eternal security.

Free will...libertarian free will is NOT reformed. It doesn't depend on YOUR explanation!
Compatiblist free will is reformed free will - it is no free will at all.

Humans are born depraved...not so depraved that they are UNABLE to answer to the call of God.

You do not believe in Limited Atonement.

You do not believe in Irresistible Grace.


So you're not even a 3 pointer!

Jason,,,just enjoy your church and be thankful that you have a church you can consider family.
I don't have this luxury.

I can't go back and reread...
you sure sounded reformed back there.
I would love you even if you were, BTW.
I just wouldn't agree with that doctrine.

wondering said:

I also believe in conditional election.

I also cannot believe in eternal security.

Free will...libertarian free will is NOT reformed. It doesn't depend on YOUR explanation!
Compatiblist free will is reformed free will - it is no free will at all.

Humans are born depraved...not so depraved that they are UNABLE to answer to the call of God.

You do not believe in Limited Atonement.

You do not believe in Irresistible Grace.


So you're not even a 3 pointer!

Jason,,,just enjoy your church and be thankful that you have a church you can consider family.
I don't have this luxury.

I can't go back and reread...
you sure sounded reformed back there.
I would love you even if you were, BTW.
I just wouldn't agree with that doctrine.

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Because I read up ,ponder the positions ,I,will take up an opposing view on that .I have said things like this to the reformed in my,church .

Its not a debate like its often, said about each other

Michelina said:

Right. If I go according to the logic that I can’t choose or refuse God’s gift of salvation, it would cause extreme doubt, rather than knowing I have eternal security.

So, not that I’m worried, but I believe that we shouldn’t have to have nagging thoughts in our head in regards to whether our belief is all in vain.

I’m willing to have this discussion in private/inbox if that’s better.

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Hi Michelina, I just want to say a couple of things: 1, that Jesus is going to judge our salvation on the last day, it's not a thing we can earn by getting the right beliefs. It all comes down to the way we have lived, and He has described at the end of Matthew 25 that He separates the sheep from the goats, and the sheep are blessed because they did love to Him and His brethren. The goats are cursed because they refused to do love to Him and His brethren.

2, please try to not get caught up in all the "I am Arminian" or "I am Calvinist", "I am Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic, Pentecostal" etc, because all it is doing is exactly what St Paul was warning against in 1 Corinthians 3:3-7 (factionism, warring of flesh through the workings of division), but rather scripture teaches that we are all baptised into one spirit, and if we remain in the unity of spirit, we will come to agree on things, one question at a time. It is sometimes easier said than done when people are being contentious and possessive, but you need to try not to lock horns with them because it is only pointless and harmful (John 6:63 LEB).

That's why they are attacking you and calling you names, trying to get under your skin and infect you with resentment, hurt, bitterness, contention etc, because truly it is not love that is talking to you that way (1 John 4:12-21 LEB) .. you will know them by their fruits.

3, remember to trust Jesus because the only thing that can merit our salvation is doing what we know is the right thing to do. As long as we have a good conscience then we cannot be condemned, and that is the message of salvation that Christ gives to us: "there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ" even though we might be still a way off from perfection, the fact we have good conscience means that we have done good in God's sight according to His expectation of us (John 3:21 LEB). There will of course be humans who like to pile on the judgments, and it is useful to understand the difference between the judgments of the person compared to the judgments of the spirit of God.

Nice to meet you, and I hope you will really enjoy being part of the community here!

jasonc said:

Perseverance of the sAints

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is not necessarily eternal security . its more of those who are truly saved will stay with it.. if they stray they will return, actually when it comes to someone else's salvation . we soon form a opinion on who is saved and who is not. but if we do it were ok

I embraced Arminianism 46 years ago.
BTW,
Armenianism
is a nationality.
Arminianism
Is a theological position.

I had a friend who was an Armenian ARMINIAN.

As far as what is verboten here, I think it is the debate between OSAS vs OSnAS, and that is something the followers of Arminius said was too close to call.

So you do have OSAS Arminians, as well as OSnAS Arminians.
Eternal Security is NOT a pillar of Arminianism as it is in C (cough) Calvinism...

The works of Jacob Arminius are all online somewhere. He wrote mainly in Dutch, but of course theologians back then wrote in Latin also. He was once a Calvinist, and was once designated to refute the writings of a guy named Koornhert. But in studying the matter, Arminius switched sides. So Arminianism was born

To paraphrase what Arminius said, translated from Dutch:

It is impossible for a BELIEVER to lose salvation, but it might be possible for a person to CEASE BEING A BELIEVER.

They walk away from it themselves, no one snatches them out of Christ's hand - it is their own doing.

Arminius had passed away before the infamous Synod of Dort - where his followers stood as accused, were denounced and driven out of the Netherlands.

The IDEAS of Arminius were resurrected in England by John Wesley, at a time when C.. Ca... Calvinism was strong in Church of England.

The early BAPTISTS in Holland had some Arminians (General BAPTISTS) and some Calvinists ( Particular BAPTISTS)

It was Particulars who came over on the Mayflower.

These terms General and particular are not really used anymore, Roger Olson is one of top dog ARMINIAN BAPTISTS today

I see Roger E. Olson has apparently passed away too.

I guess we're all going to - but Paul said "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet"

1 Corinthians 15:51-52