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Difficult Questions

G

Goldwing

Member
Many christians believe as they were taught from childhood, that the ten commandments are good rules to follow, as all but the 4th were reinstated after being nailed to the cross, upon the death of Christ. This would include me.

However, there are some questions that many have never given serious thought to, such as:

I. If they were abolished, then how does one define sin/disobedience?
2. If they were abolished, then why do we need grace?
3. If they were abolished, then what evidence can we give to show we love God?
 
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Whatever said:
Because the Pastor talked about it the next Sunday. He apparently saw no problem leaving after Church to drive himself and his kids close to 100 miles to get to the amusement park.
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One other thing. We have a nursing home in our town a few blocks from the Church. Imagine instead of driving that far to have "fun" he and his kids could have spent the afternoon visiting the sick and lonely.

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
 
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Whatever said:
God is allowed to use hyperbole to get a point across.
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Then don’t use it to prove a point that babies are born evil when you, yourself, admit that isn’t what it means. Babies aren’t born evil.
Whatever said:
Well, it is Scripture speaking. I know a lot of people are insulted by what God says - "You are a sinner," "Jesus is the only way," and many others.
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And? What does that have to do with the discussion?
Whatever said:
Because the Pastor talked about it the next Sunday. He apparently saw no problem leaving after Church to drive himself and his kids close to 100 miles to get to the amusement park.
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Wow! But I’ve noticed that it’s more common for speakers in church to go on and on about themselves. They can’t say anything worth hearing about God so they use the time as a verbal social media platform full of verbal selfies to a captive audience. If the listeners don’t think about God, as least they can be left admiring the minister. “Spotlight on me” is the name of services these days.
 
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Whatever
Moving this statement of mine and a follow up question to you, down from post #15. Would you be comfortable in giving me your thoughts?

"However, I know of no place in the new testament where either the disciples or Christ (our example), ever mentioned moving the seventh day Sabbath to the first day of the week. This would indicate that there was no hint of a change in the day of observance through nearly the first century past the death of Christ.

I am aware however, how that change took place. Have you ever been curious enough to research how and when the change accurred?"
 
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Here are some not familiar facts and yes the ten commandments still stand today as the first day God gave them.

www.jewfaq.org

Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are now binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Noah, and none today on this side of the cross as we are all one in the Spirit of God, Galatians 3:28. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13, and until the days of Jacob there was no land called Israel or any laws pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as none of that existed yet. What there were was seven to begin with that are the laws that are written on our heart. Laws were added to as the generations grew until there became 613 that became a curse as no one could ever follow all of them.

Beginning with Genesis 2:16 the Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Sanhedrin 56ab listed six commandments given first to Adam and then again to Noah after the flood. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all the first part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow that are written upon our heart. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the righteousness of the laws, Matthew 5:17-22.

Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.


Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
Then don’t use it to prove a point that babies are born evil when you, yourself, admit that isn’t what it means. Babies aren’t born evil.
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No, it does mean that babies are born estranged from God. The "speaking lies" is hyperbole.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

Genesis 8:21 The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth . . .

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be pure,
Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
 
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I don't believe that God's morality or expectations for humanity were fully set forth or defined in the Ten Commandments. God's morality encompasses every situation and decision in human life. As Paul suggests, the specific Ten Commandments were given to make clear to the Jews how far short of God's morality they fell; they weren't given in the expectation that anyone actually could or would fulfill them. They haven't been "abolished" by Christ but rather "fulfilled." The great commandments to love God with all one's heart and mind and one's neighbor as oneself are what guide the Christian's walk in every situation and decision. The Ten Commandments are subsumed into these two. If I'm walking in those two commandments, I don't need a specific commandment not to commit murder or commit adultery.

As for the Sabbath, it's irrelevant to a Christian. We celebrate the day of Christ's resurrection. (My wife, who is Russian, points out that the Russian word for Sunday is literally "Resurrection.") If someone thinks it pleases God or makes them feel like better Christians to strictly observe the Sabbath and other Jewish rites and festivals, I'm not going to argue with them.

Original sin is indeed an Augustinian concept with no biblical support and a massive body of theological criticism. The Christian notion is that with the Fall a propensity to sin entered into human nature. We aren't condemned because Adam and Eve sinned. We have fallen (perverted) natures because they sinned and we are thus prone to sin ourselves. We inherited the propensity, not the guilt for their sin.

A baby is "estranged" from God in the same way all humans are estranged from God: We are created beings who fall short of God's perfect holiness. Romans 3:23 says "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." It doesn't say "BECAUSE all have sinned, they fall short of the glory of God." A newborn baby falls short of the glory of God the same way we all do - merely by being a created being with a fallen nature prone to sin. Most believe, however, that a baby is not condemned by God because he or she lacks any moral accountability for sin.
 
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Runner said:
Most believe, however, that a baby is not condemned by God because he or she lacks any moral accountability for sin.
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Yes, most believe this, but there are some hints.
Hos 6:7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.

Yes the word "adam" can refer to the historical Adam or just "men."

Many believe that the whole idea of Jesus justifying people based on His obedience, hinges on the same principle that many are condemned by one man's (Adam) disobedience.

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

This is called Original Sin. Basically Adam stood as a Federal Head (Priest) of the human race. God basically made a covenant of works with him. Don't do X and you will live, do X and you will die. When Adam broke this covenant, he broke it for all of us. Thus, we are all born covenant breakers. That is why all die. The theologians see this curse as coming down through the seed (sperm.) That way Jesus wasn't under the curse because of his virgin birth.

Exo_20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

It sounds to me like if a man and woman who are cannibals who live in the jungle somewhere and have never heard of Jesus, have a kid, and that kid dies, he does not "go to heaven because he is innocent."

Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating.

1Co_7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

It seems that children of unbelievers are unclean. That word unclean in Strongs:
ak-ath'-ar-tos
(meaning cleansed); impure (ceremonially, morally (lewd) or specifically (demonic)): - foul, unclean.
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
Ah Goldwing, I laughed out loud. But what did I ever do to you to suggest such a thing? How much of me would be left after that? (hope you at least smiled.)

That’s the excuse the majority have for their sin and it’s so beautiful because it’s not their fault. They were born that way. They can even convince others to repent of their sin nature, something they aren’t responsible for. It’s how Augustine excused his deeply sinful past and so wrote it into theology.

I dropped it the day I decided to do a search for “sin nature” and got no hits. The term and concept is no where in the Bible. But “thems fightin’ words! I like my head where it is and not lying on the floor after the guillotine did it’s work.
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Volumes spoken here.
 
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Whatever said:
God is allowed to use hyperbole to get a point across.

Well, it is Scripture speaking. I know a lot of people are insulted by what God says - "You are a sinner," "Jesus is the only way," and many others.

Because the Pastor talked about it the next Sunday. He apparently saw no problem leaving after Church to drive himself and his kids close to 100 miles to get to the amusement park.
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I forget which commandment forbids swimming, going to an amusement park or having fun in general on a Sunday in particular. Is it the driving of close to 100 miles that was the violation? Or that he dared do all this and spoke about it?

This is how the Moses' book of the law became the uncountable number of laws and regulations we call legal code.

1656688549176.png
 
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Mister E said:
I forget which commandment forbids swimming, going to an amusement park or having fun in general on a Sunday in particular. Is it the driving of close to 100 miles that was the violation? Or that he dared do all this and spoke about it?

This is how the Moses' book of the law became the uncountable number of laws and regulations we call legal code.

View attachment 14348
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For me I wonder why the pastor felt it a part of his duties to encourage and inspire his congregation in the Lord by telling them of his personal entertainment plans. Does he give others the chance to tell the group what expensive entertainment they’re able to do after church or only he gets that privilege?
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
For me I wonder why the pastor felt it a part of his duties to encourage and inspire his congregation in the Lord by telling them of his personal entertainment plans. Does he give others the chance to tell the group what expensive entertainment they’re able to do after church or only he gets that privilege?
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And furthermore- who cares?

Be thankful the kids came to church at all. Be thankful you have a church to go to. Be thankful it has a pastor.

Be thankful you live in a country where all this is still possible.
 
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Mister E said:
And furthermore- who cares?

Be thankful the kids came to church at all. Be thankful you have a church to go to. Be thankful it has a pastor.

Be thankful you live in a country where all this is still possible.
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That’s a pretty low bar. It’s just sad, that’s all. Every man for himself and “be grateful you can be so selfish.”
 
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Whatever said:
That sounds okay to me. I'm not strict on Sundays. But it does bother me when I see young girls come to Church wearing shorts over their bathing suits and carrying a towel so that as soon as Church is over they can run to the swimming pool.
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Ahh, to be young again :) ! You were young once too , right ?

Whatever said:
Or as soon as Church is over, the pastor and his kids heading for the amusement park.
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It is possible this was the only day the whole family could enjoy being together ? What did you do with your children after Church ?
Whatever said:
One other thing. We have a nursing home in our town a few blocks from the Church. Imagine instead of driving that far to have "fun" he and his kids could have spent the afternoon visiting the sick and lonely.
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What was the pastor and his family doing the other 6 days of the week?
Do you spend much time visiting people in the nursing home ?
 
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Mister E said:
That sounds quite bitter. Jesus set the lowest bar possible. We don’t need people constantly trying to raise it.
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No, he actually set the bar higher than the law of Moses. We have to forgive others as we are forgiven, for example. Under Moses they just needed to offer a sacrifice.

He also said that those who obey God, the Father will love. Uh oh! He said to care for widows and orphans and others. He said not to favor the rich. To one guy he said he needed to sell everything he had. He said when we give or help, we ought not to think about it afterwards.

I’m not bitter. I feel sorry for the brethren who could not afford to drive so far to spend the day at an amusement park. In these days many are struggling financially. I’m not saying he shouldn’t go. I’m saying he didn’t help the less financially well off by bragging he could. Some pleasures ought to be enjoyed quietly out of love for others.
 
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