Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Difficult Questions

Goldwing

Member
Many christians believe as they were taught from childhood, that the ten commandments are good rules to follow, as all but the 4th were reinstated after being nailed to the cross, upon the death of Christ. This would include me.

However, there are some questions that many have never given serious thought to, such as:

I. If they were abolished, then how does one define sin/disobedience?
2. If they were abolished, then why do we need grace?
3. If they were abolished, then what evidence can we give to show we love God?
 
Does getting dressed for the day and making my bed count as labor? If I prepare all my meals the day before but yet feed myself on the day of rest, would that be labor or does it require that I fast for that day? Fishing is a career choice for some but I enjoy fishing for a hobby and often times while out on the water in my boat, it's an opportunity for alone time for me to spend with our Lord in prayer and relishing in the beauty of His creation around me. Same is true for hunting. Spending the day in a deer stand alone with God and reading my bible app on my phone on a day of Sabbath worship is very special for me. Am I in violation of the Sabbath by doing these things?
wip, hawkman, appreciate your inquires. First let me say, the sabbaths are not mine, but the Lords. Jesus has lived out examples of what is appropriate. I try to follow His example but often I fall short. As you know growlng in Christ takes effort, understanding and patience, we fail, we confess our weakness, we ask for the Holy Spirits help to be overcomers, knowing even our best of works, are but filthy rags, compared to the righteousness that Christ offers us through faith.

Asking questions to better understanding God's seventh day sabbath, is a scary/uncomfortable endeavor. I know, from experience, as I was raised a Sunday keeper. My wife and I both having studied the issue made the change when I was in my early thirties, she early twenties. The "sanctification process," which christians should experience while growing toward maturity in Christ, is not talked about much, therefore, not understood. Understanding God's sabbath and observing it would certainly fall under that heading.

I will post some insights on, "sanctification," so you will better appreciate my answers to your questions on sabbath observance.

Romans Chapter 6
After Paul explains justification by faith in the previous three chapters, he moves forward into sanctification in the next three chapters because, “without holiness [sanctification] no one will see the Lord.”(Heb.12:14) I encourage you to read these three chapters in one sitting because sanctification is not optional. Sanctification is how fellowship with God becomes possible. It is the process of learning to love as God loves. The sanctification process prepares us to live in God’s house. While on Mt. Sinai, Moses said to the Lord, “If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you.”(Ex. 33:13) Sanctification is an eternal process. It consists of learning God’s ways and assimilating God’s character of perfect love.
Many Christians minimize or ignore the sanctification part of the Christian life. It is as though justification is everything and sanctification is unimportant! Sure, getting something very valuable for free (justification) appeals to our greedy sinful nature, but our gracious and loving Father is deeply concerned about our preparation for life with the angels, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and Himself.

Think about this: Even though they were created with sinless natures, the Father lost one-third of heaven’s angels to rebellion. Therefore, the Father requires all repentant sinners undergo a preparation process for eternal life. Of course, repentant sinners, like the thief on the cross, who receive Jesus during the last moments of life, do not have much time for sanctification. This is not a problem. At the Second Coming, the thief will be resurrected and given a sinless nature (1Cor.15:53) and his sanctification will continue in the same way as the sanctification of all of the saints! Each repentant sinner will continue to “mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." (Eph.4:13) “The righteous will flourish like a palm tree, they will grow like a cedar of Lebanon; planted in the house of the Lord, they will flourish in the courts of our God." (Psalm 92:12-13)

Sanctification requires faith through a three-step process: First, the Holy Spirit has to bring us to a place where we admit to God and ourselves that a certain behavior is a sin. Second, knowing that any cherished sin disconnects us from God’s power, we have to confess “it is a sin” before we can be freed from it. Third, we then have to wrestle with our sinful nature, doing everything we can to overcome the sin. The struggle is exhausting and frustrating. After we prove to ourselves and God that we cannot achieve the victory we intensely want, our need of the Savior will become very real. Seeking victory through faith is di cult. Failure after failure is discouraging. Therefore, clinging to the promises of Jesus until He blesses us with the victory is what the school of sanctification through faith is all about.

Wrestling with God for victory is a divine privilege. This is what Jacob did just before he met Esau. After Jesus saw Jacob’s remorse for his sin, Jesus blessed him and changed his name to Israel because of his faith and perseverance. Only born-again people want to stay within this bittersweet process. It is too di cult and distasteful for the sinful nature. Truancy from the school of sanctification explains fourteen centuries of repetitious failures by ancient Israel.

Consider the life of Jesus, the “Author and Finisher of our faith”:

“During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission [even though He was not saved from death]. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect [mature, a graduate from the school of sanctification],he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him [and are sanctified] and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.”(Hebrews 5:7-10)


You may be tempted to think that living by faith is not hard when compared to sanctification, but this perception immediately evaporates when you begin to live by faith. When God asks us to do something that is contrary to our sinful nature like avoiding retaliation against another or if God asks us to do something that comes with a significant price like to take a bold stand against evil, our faith is tested. The Holy Spirit may urge you to humble yourself and make restitution to someone you hurt, take an embarrassing stand on a matter among your peers that is socially unacceptable, or simply share the gospel with someone who appears to be de ant. The Holy Spirit wants to use us to glorify Jesus, but we cannot glorify Him without faith. It takes determined faith to follow Jesus; remember the rich young man’s sorrow when he chose not to exercise his faith. The Holy Spirit ensures the price for obedience is appropriate at all times. The rungs on the ladder of faith are not ten feet apart. When God asks the impossible, He makes the impossible possible, but you can be sure that whatever He asks will involve an uncomfortable stretch.

continued
 
Now to your questions.
First understand it is a Holy day, not a Holiday, that will help in understanding the proper observance. I believe, that God commands all who enter His rest, to rest from there labors of which tThey depend on for there living. This is a weekly lesson in learning to trust God and to grow our faith. There are exceptions to this as I understand it. Should you be a doctor, you could close your practice and only be available for emergencies. My wife is a nurse, she works on sabbath only when she has to take call. (Christ healed on the sabbath) Keep in mind, "it is not unlawful to do good on the sabbath". Myself, I had a construction business. I did not or did I mandate any employee to work on the Sabbath, nor did I take business calls or work on estimates. People with livestock must feed and care for their stock, including milking the cows. People who work for the safety of their communities, policy, fire fighters, EMT, can work during the sabbath. Keep in mind that if the work is not an emergency and can be put off during the sabbath, it is in keeping with the sabbath, and pleasing to the Lord.

It is my belief we are not to buy or sell during the sabbath as that requires other to work at their jobs. If we honor the sabbath by not working, why expect others to? According to (Isa. 58:13,14) we are not to do our own pleasure. This is a tough one. But if the Lord ask it of us it's for our own good. This is my reasoning but each one must ask the Holy Spirit to help them in understanding it for themselves.

The first four commandments inform us what love for God should look like. To say you love God, with all your heart, mind, and soul/life, (lip service) has no meaning without a physical action on our part. Doing our own pleasure is a self serving pleasure. It is what our fallen nature is programed to do. It is at enmity with God. It is my reasoning that God has commanded that we give up/sacrifice our pleasures/ hobbies, hunting, fishing, bowling, skydiving, whatever, so we can know if we love God to to that degree. If the Father was will to sacrifice Jesus, a deity to His equal in every way, each of us must ask ourselves, are we willing to sacrifice our pleasures, to honor the Sabbath?

Of course we fix meals, and eat, attend church services, listen to sacred music, read spiritual material, watch spiritual TV only, take nature walks and the like. Try to keep our mind off of worldly news, and focus on our relationship with our creator.

I am not perfect in keeping the sabbath or any of the other nine commandments, but for the grace of God, and the righteousness of Christ, I'm looking forward to the day when all the redeemed will have them written on their hearts, and we shall worship together on God's Holy Sabbath. (Isa. 66:23)
 

Sounds pretty simple, or maybe not. Far from being a day of rest, it sounds like a day of neurotic obsession. I'd be a basket case after two Sabbaths. (From https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/shabbats-work-prohibition/)

Beyond Torah: What Can and Can’t We Do?​

In the Mishnah, the Rabbis enumerated 39 major categories (with hundreds of subcategories) of labor that were forbidden (avot melachah) based on the types of work that were related to the construction of the Tabernacle in the wilderness, which ceased on the Sabbath (Shab. 7:2).

Activities that cannot be performed on the Sabbath are basic tasks connected with preparing the showbread of the Temple (sowing, plowing, reaping, binding, threshing, winnowing, selecting, grinding, sifting, kneading, baking), work related to making the coverings in the Tabernacle and the vestments used by the Kohanim (shearing sheep, bleaching, carding, dyeing, spinning, stretching material, making two loops — the beginning of sewing, threading needles, weaving, separating, tying a knot, untying a knot, sewing, tearing), activities concerned with writing and the preparation of parchment from animal skin (trapping or hunting, slaughtering, skinning, curing hides, scraping pelts, marking out a hide to make ready for cutting, cutting), writing, erasing, constructing (building, demolishing), kindling a flame (lighting or extinguishing), carrying (from private to public domain, and vice versa), and putting the finishing touches to a piece of work already begun before the Sabbath.

The Rabbis decreed that one not only should avoid forbidden acts but also must not do anything that (1) resembles a prohibited act or could be confused with it, (2) is a habit linked with a prohibited act, or (3) usually leads to performing a prohibited act.

The rabbinic enactment of measures to prevent these possibilities was termed “putting a fence around the Torah” (Avot 1:1). For example, ripping up a piece of paper was forbidden since it resembles “cutting to shape” or could be confused with it.

Similarly, agreeing to buy something was prohibited, because most agreements are confirmed in “writing”; climbing a tree is forbidden, because it may lead to breaking twigs or tearing leaves, which could be construed as “reaping” (i.e., separating part of a growing plant from its source). Other activities that by extension are prohibited on the Sabbath include the following:

  • Adding fresh water to a vase of cut flowers (sowing — any activity that causes or furthers plant growth).
  • Making a bouquet of flowers (making a sheaf).
  • Separating good fruit from spoiled fruit (winnowing, selecting, sifting).
  • Brushing dried mud from boots or clothes (grinding).
  • Cutting hair or nails (shearing sheep-removing outer covering of a human or animal).
  • Applying makeup (dyeing).
  • Braiding hair (weaving).
  • Drawing blood for a blood test (slaughtering).
  • Rubbing soap to make lather, applying face cream, polishing shoes, using scouring powder for utensils or other surfaces (scraping-smoothing the surface of any material by grinding, rubbing, or polishing).
  • Sharpening a pencil (cutting to shape-altering the size or shape of an item to make it better for human use).
  • Painting, drawing, typing (writing, making durable marks on a durable material).
  • Tearing through lettering on a package (erasing).
  • Opening an umbrella or unfolding a screen (building).
  • Smoking a cigarette, using the telephone (kindling a fire).
  • Switching off an electric light (extinguishing a fire).
  • Setting or winding a clock or watch (finishing off).
  • Wearing eyeglasses not permanently required (carrying from private to public domain and vice versa).

Muktzeh: Things You Can’t Even Touch​

Any items that may not be used on the Sabbath may not even be handled on that day, lest one unintentionally perform one of the forbidden types of work. These objects are termed muktzeh, meaning to “set aside” or “store away.” Among the many things considered muktzeh are money and checks; scissors, hammers and saws; pencils and pens; battery-operated toys and flashlights; radios and CDs; telephones and computers; and certain religious objects such as shofar, tefillin, and lulav. Even the Sabbath candlesticks are muktzeh and thus should not be touched on the Sabbath after the candles have been lit.

Even if not strictly classified as forbidden work, certain “mundane matters” should be avoided on the Sabbath. These include weekday chores (such as packing suitcases and rearranging furniture, which are not in keeping with enjoyment of the restful spirit of the Sabbath), opening mail, and discussing business issues or matters of everyday concern. One is forbidden to even think about or make plans for the week ahead, such as preparing equipment, mapping out a route, readying a briefcase for the next day, or setting the table for a party on Saturday night.

Based on Isaiah’s exhortation that one “honor it (the Sabbath) by not doing your usual ways” (Isa. 58:13), the Rabbis recommended that a person should even walk differently on the Sabbath, avoiding the long strides and rushing about that characterize the pace of most people on weekdays.

Then What Can We Do?​

For an activity to be considered as work forbidden on the Sabbath, the violation must be intentional. Therefore moving a chair from one place to another is permissible, even though it may produce an impression on the ground. Similarly, walking on the grass is allowed, even though this may result in some of it being crushed underfoot and thus technically constitute the prohibited activity mentioned above or the forbidden cutting of blades of grass.

One has not violated the Sabbath as long as the original purpose was solely to move the chair or to walk on the grass. In contrast, one is not permitted to engage in a task that always results in forbidden work. Thus washing oneself on a lawn is prohibited because it inevitably will result in watering the grass, which is forbidden on the Sabbath.

The Rules on Fire!​

In addition to the general forbidding of all manner of work on the Sabbath, there is a special prohibition against making a fire (Exod. 35:3). The Rabbis considered this to include everything that pertains to the kindling of light, even if no actual work is involved. In modern times, there is a controversy regarding whether the switching on of electric lights and appliances is equivalent to making a fire.

There are two reasons to think that switching on an electric light may not be considered kindling. First, switching on a light does not create electric power; the power exists already. Second, there is no combustion in the filament of an electric light. Nevertheless, Orthodox Jews do not use electric appliances on the Sabbath, believing that the prohibition against kindling a fire was not based on the physical effort involved in rubbing two stones together to produce a spark but rather on the thought and planning that resulted in its generation.

For the Hazon Ish, the activation of an electric current and its transmission to sources of power, heat, and light that is produced by turning on a switch is forbidden because it falls under the category of “building” — intentionally causing something to happen. An exception is the refrigerator, which may be opened and closed because any electric current that this produces is incidental and without conscious intent. However, many observant Jews unscrew the refrigerator bulb for the Sabbath.

Lights that have been kindled before the Sabbath, such as the Sabbath candles, are allowed, as are an oven for keeping previously cooked food warm and a burner to keep water warm for coffee or tea. Similarly, it is permitted to leave an electric appliance running during the Sabbath and to use a timer to automatically turn an appliance on or off, as long as the timer is set before the Sabbath begins.

One mechanism to ease the difficulty of complying with the prohibition against work on the Sabbath was the concept of the Shabbos goy — a non-Jew hired by an observant family to perform certain activities forbidden to Jews on the Sabbath, such as starting a fire and turning lights on and off. However, the proliferation of electronic timers has virtually eliminated the need for the Shabbos goy.
 

Sounds pretty simple, or maybe not. Far from being a day of rest, it sounds like a day of neurotic obsession. I'd be a basket case after two Sabbaths. (From https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/shabbats-work-prohibition/)

Beyond Torah: What Can and Can’t We Do?​

In the Mishnah, the Rabbis enumerated 39 major categories (with hundreds of subcategories) of labor that were forbidden (avot melachah) based on the types of work that were related to the construction of the Tabernacle in the wilderness, which ceased on the Sabbath (Shab. 7:2).

Activities that cannot be performed on the Sabbath are basic tasks connected with preparing the showbread of the Temple (sowing, plowing, reaping, binding, threshing, winnowing, selecting, grinding, sifting, kneading, baking), work related to making the coverings in the Tabernacle and the vestments used by the Kohanim (shearing sheep, bleaching, carding, dyeing, spinning, stretching material, making two loops — the beginning of sewing, threading needles, weaving, separating, tying a knot, untying a knot, sewing, tearing), activities concerned with writing and the preparation of parchment from animal skin (trapping or hunting, slaughtering, skinning, curing hides, scraping pelts, marking out a hide to make ready for cutting, cutting), writing, erasing, constructing (building, demolishing), kindling a flame (lighting or extinguishing), carrying (from private to public domain, and vice versa), and putting the finishing touches to a piece of work already begun before the Sabbath.

The Rabbis decreed that one not only should avoid forbidden acts but also must not do anything that (1) resembles a prohibited act or could be confused with it, (2) is a habit linked with a prohibited act, or (3) usually leads to performing a prohibited act.

The rabbinic enactment of measures to prevent these possibilities was termed “putting a fence around the Torah” (Avot 1:1). For example, ripping up a piece of paper was forbidden since it resembles “cutting to shape” or could be confused with it.

Similarly, agreeing to buy something was prohibited, because most agreements are confirmed in “writing”; climbing a tree is forbidden, because it may lead to breaking twigs or tearing leaves, which could be construed as “reaping” (i.e., separating part of a growing plant from its source). Other activities that by extension are prohibited on the Sabbath include the following:

  • Adding fresh water to a vase of cut flowers (sowing — any activity that causes or furthers plant growth).
  • Making a bouquet of flowers (making a sheaf).
  • Separating good fruit from spoiled fruit (winnowing, selecting, sifting).
  • Brushing dried mud from boots or clothes (grinding).
  • Cutting hair or nails (shearing sheep-removing outer covering of a human or animal).
  • Applying makeup (dyeing).
  • Braiding hair (weaving).
  • Drawing blood for a blood test (slaughtering).
  • Rubbing soap to make lather, applying face cream, polishing shoes, using scouring powder for utensils or other surfaces (scraping-smoothing the surface of any material by grinding, rubbing, or polishing).
  • Sharpening a pencil (cutting to shape-altering the size or shape of an item to make it better for human use).
  • Painting, drawing, typing (writing, making durable marks on a durable material).
  • Tearing through lettering on a package (erasing).
  • Opening an umbrella or unfolding a screen (building).
  • Smoking a cigarette, using the telephone (kindling a fire).
  • Switching off an electric light (extinguishing a fire).
  • Setting or winding a clock or watch (finishing off).
  • Wearing eyeglasses not permanently required (carrying from private to public domain and vice versa).

Muktzeh: Things You Can’t Even Touch​

Any items that may not be used on the Sabbath may not even be handled on that day, lest one unintentionally perform one of the forbidden types of work. These objects are termed muktzeh, meaning to “set aside” or “store away.” Among the many things considered muktzeh are money and checks; scissors, hammers and saws; pencils and pens; battery-operated toys and flashlights; radios and CDs; telephones and computers; and certain religious objects such as shofar, tefillin, and lulav. Even the Sabbath candlesticks are muktzeh and thus should not be touched on the Sabbath after the candles have been lit.

Even if not strictly classified as forbidden work, certain “mundane matters” should be avoided on the Sabbath. These include weekday chores (such as packing suitcases and rearranging furniture, which are not in keeping with enjoyment of the restful spirit of the Sabbath), opening mail, and discussing business issues or matters of everyday concern. One is forbidden to even think about or make plans for the week ahead, such as preparing equipment, mapping out a route, readying a briefcase for the next day, or setting the table for a party on Saturday night.

Based on Isaiah’s exhortation that one “honor it (the Sabbath) by not doing your usual ways” (Isa. 58:13), the Rabbis recommended that a person should even walk differently on the Sabbath, avoiding the long strides and rushing about that characterize the pace of most people on weekdays.

Then What Can We Do?​

For an activity to be considered as work forbidden on the Sabbath, the violation must be intentional. Therefore moving a chair from one place to another is permissible, even though it may produce an impression on the ground. Similarly, walking on the grass is allowed, even though this may result in some of it being crushed underfoot and thus technically constitute the prohibited activity mentioned above or the forbidden cutting of blades of grass.

One has not violated the Sabbath as long as the original purpose was solely to move the chair or to walk on the grass. In contrast, one is not permitted to engage in a task that always results in forbidden work. Thus washing oneself on a lawn is prohibited because it inevitably will result in watering the grass, which is forbidden on the Sabbath.

The Rules on Fire!​

In addition to the general forbidding of all manner of work on the Sabbath, there is a special prohibition against making a fire (Exod. 35:3). The Rabbis considered this to include everything that pertains to the kindling of light, even if no actual work is involved. In modern times, there is a controversy regarding whether the switching on of electric lights and appliances is equivalent to making a fire.

There are two reasons to think that switching on an electric light may not be considered kindling. First, switching on a light does not create electric power; the power exists already. Second, there is no combustion in the filament of an electric light. Nevertheless, Orthodox Jews do not use electric appliances on the Sabbath, believing that the prohibition against kindling a fire was not based on the physical effort involved in rubbing two stones together to produce a spark but rather on the thought and planning that resulted in its generation.

For the Hazon Ish, the activation of an electric current and its transmission to sources of power, heat, and light that is produced by turning on a switch is forbidden because it falls under the category of “building” — intentionally causing something to happen. An exception is the refrigerator, which may be opened and closed because any electric current that this produces is incidental and without conscious intent. However, many observant Jews unscrew the refrigerator bulb for the Sabbath.

Lights that have been kindled before the Sabbath, such as the Sabbath candles, are allowed, as are an oven for keeping previously cooked food warm and a burner to keep water warm for coffee or tea. Similarly, it is permitted to leave an electric appliance running during the Sabbath and to use a timer to automatically turn an appliance on or off, as long as the timer is set before the Sabbath begins.

One mechanism to ease the difficulty of complying with the prohibition against work on the Sabbath was the concept of the Shabbos goy — a non-Jew hired by an observant family to perform certain activities forbidden to Jews on the Sabbath, such as starting a fire and turning lights on and off. However, the proliferation of electronic timers has virtually eliminated the need for the Shabbos goy.
Runner, do you believe in Judaism, If not why are you sharing their faith? Jesus, tried to teach them of their many errors, they often accused Him breaking the Sabbath, because He did not submit to their man made rules of which you list. Please don't promote these rules for sabbath observance as what God would have us do, or use them as a reason for ignoring the seventh day sabbath.
 
Runner, do you believe in Judaism, If not why are you sharing their faith? Jesus, tried to teach them of their many errors, they often accused Him breaking the Sabbath, because He did not submit to their man made rules of which you list. Please don't promote these rules for sabbath observance as what God would have us do, or use them as a reason for ignoring the seventh day sabbath.
If I thought I still had to observe the Sabbath, I certainly think I would look to those to whom the commandment was given for guidance as to how they understood it over a period of centuries. Jesus' point was that in circumstances where the purpose of the Sabbath should have taken precedence over formalistic ritual, they gave precedence to formalistic ritual. He didn't suggest their Sabbath practice was completely flawed. I assume Jesus and his disciples celebrated the Sabbath like other Jews.

You follow the SDA understanding of the Sabbath (https://www.adventist.org/the-sabbath/celebrating-the-sabbath-today/), which those to whom the commandment was given would say is not observing the Sabbath at all. For all I know, Jesus would be aghast. I apply my own interpretation, which is: I don't believe the OT Sabbath command is binding on me at all. I treat Sunday as the Lord's Day and a day of rest as I conceive it (which looks nothing your supposed Sabbath), and so be it.

If observing the Sabbath as you conceive it makes you feel better about your Christianity and you think it pleases God, go for it. It strikes me mostly as one of those oddball doctrines that Christian denominations and sects emphasize and cherish because it makes them "different" from other denominations and sects.
 
Thank you for your response .
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I find it odd that you mentioned milking cows . Cattle would be another term for cow .
People with livestock must feed and care for their stock, including milking the cows.
That cow is working . I see it no other way .
 
Quoting you, "I find it interesting that when Jesus talks about the commandments He never talks about the first 4."
Have you heard it said, never say never? This is why, (Mat. 22: 34-40).
The first 4 commandments:
Deu 5:6 “‘I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Deu 5:7 (1) “‘You shall have no other gods before me.
Deu 5:8 (2) “‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Deu 5:9 You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Deu 5:10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Deu 5:11 (3) “‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
Deu 5:12 (4) “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.

Jesus is simply summarizing all 10 commandments as Love God and Love Neighbor. But He doesn't specifically mention Idolatry, taking God's name in vain or the sabbath.
 
You state: :Where did either of them claim anything?" You, are looking for word statements from them, in so you are overlooking their actions. Do not actions speak louder than words?
No, not in this case. You said "they claimed." To me this means they said with their mouth, they asserted.
 
Jesus is simply summarizing all 10 commandments as Love God and Love Neighbor. But He doesn't specifically mention Idolatry, taking God's name in vain or the sabbath.
Whatever, do you believe, that since the commandments can be summed up in, Love God, and your neighbor, the ten individual commandments can be ignored? If that be the case, then each individual would determine what that would be.

What would the likely hood of that being consistent?

Too, how would one define sin?
 
Thank you for your response .
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I find it odd that you mentioned milking cows . Cattle would be another term for cow .

That cow is working . I see it no other way .
I can't believe your response, do you seriously expect a dairy farmer in order to keep his cows from doing any labor, should go out to the barn and say, listen up all you cows, it is the sabbath, you must not produce milk until after sundown. Is your heart so harden agains the Holy Spirit that your reasoning has turned to foolishness.
 
I can't believe your response, do you seriously expect a dairy farmer in order to keep his cows from doing any labor, should go out to the barn and say, listen up all you cows, it is the sabbath, you must not produce milk until after sundown. Is your heart so harden agains the Holy Spirit that your reasoning has turned to foolishness.
Ok the dairy farmer is milking cows on the sabbath . What happens to the milk that is milked from the cows ?
 
Ok the dairy farmer is milking cows on the sabbath . What happens to the milk that is milked from the cows ?
hawkman, If your employer were to give you a day off, would you be so resistant? You, need to ask yourself why it is that you are so defiant, when the God you supposedly love, commands that you rest every seventh day? Consider the question seriously.

Share with me what you know about the change from the seventh day sabbath to the Lords day.
 
If I thought I still had to observe the Sabbath, I certainly think I would look to those to whom the commandment was given for guidance as to how they understood it over a period of centuries.
If the above is your reasoning, and you believe the Jews understand the Sabbath correctly, do you also believe that Christ is not the Son of God, a deity Himself equal with the Father, like the Jews do?

Was Christ not born of a Jewish mother, and into the Jewish culture, and was prophesied to come, as the son of God, but yet, chosen as His special people they failed to recognized Him. Do you really want to put your confidence in knowledge of the sabbath?

It is really quite interesting in hearing all the reasons individuals have posted to justify why the sabbath is not valid. Individuals need to ask themselves why they are so defiant in regard to God's forth commandment.
 
hawkman, If your employer were to give you a day off, would you be so resistant?
I am off every day lately , I can rest and worship God all the days .
You, need to ask yourself why it is that you are so defiant, when the God you supposedly love, commands that you rest every seventh day? Consider the question seriously.
What happens to that milk on the sabbath really concerns me , doesn't it concern you ?
Share with me what you know about the change from the seventh day sabbath to the Lords day.
"On March 7, A.D. 321, Constantine the Great issued the first civil Sunday law, compelling all the people in the Roman Empire, except farmers, to rest on Sunday."

And wouldn't you know it those farmers just can't catch a break ! Milking cows and slopping hogs every day of the week !

Ok if you are not worried about sour milk I have another question for you .

It is my belief we are not to buy or sell during the sabbath as that requires other to work at their jobs. If we honor the sabbath by not working, why expect others to?
Just how is the not buying anything on the sabbath working out for you ? I have a couple of things I have to purchase on the sabbath that I would hate to be without .
 
If the above is your reasoning, and you believe the Jews understand the Sabbath correctly, do you also believe that Christ is not the Son of God, a deity Himself equal with the Father, like the Jews do?

Was Christ not born of a Jewish mother, and into the Jewish culture, and was prophesied to come, as the son of God, but yet, chosen as His special people they failed to recognized Him. Do you really want to put your confidence in knowledge of the sabbath?

It is really quite interesting in hearing all the reasons individuals have posted to justify why the sabbath is not valid. Individuals need to ask themselves why they are so defiant in regard to God's forth commandment.
I don't think your reasoning goes anywhere. Jesus and his family were first century Jews. They would have observed the Sabbath as first century Jews. Ditto for Jesus and his disciples. That was and is the Sabbath, not some latter-day reinvention of it. The early Christians quickly began to observe Sunday as the Lord's Day. I simply said that if I were inclined to observe the Sabbath, which I'm not, I'd look to the Jewish understanding - not a latter-day "Sabbath" as reinvented by the SDA.
 
I am off every day lately , I can rest and worship God all the days .

What happens to that milk on the sabbath really concerns me , doesn't it concern you ?

"On March 7, A.D. 321, Constantine the Great issued the first civil Sunday law, compelling all the people in the Roman Empire, except farmers, to rest on Sunday."

And wouldn't you know it those farmers just can't catch a break ! Milking cows and slopping hogs every day of the week !

Ok if you are not worried about sour milk I have another question for you .


Just how is the not buying anything on the sabbath working out for you ? I have a couple of things I have to purchase on the sabbath that I would hate to be without .

Having expressed that your carnal cravings take precedence over your spiritual, consider the words of Paul:


Romans 8:5-9: “Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you [and we know that the Holy Spirit does not lead us away from God’s law, but He leads us into fulfilling the law because God’s law is righteous and holy. The Spirit wants to write God’s law in our hearts and minds so that we can walk and live in perfect harmony with God]. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.”
 
The early Christians quickly began to observe Sunday as the Lord's Day.
There is no Biblical record to support such a claim. There is however, historlcal, that prove the change began in the 3rd. century A.D., as Hawkman stated. Have you ever did any serious research into it? If you do, you will discover it all came about by the will of man, not God. Would that give you concern?
 
Just how is the not buying anything on the sabbath working out for you ? I have a couple of things I have to purchase on the sabbath that I would hate to be without .
And you said .
Having expressed that your carnal cravings take precedence over your spiritual, consider the words of Paul:
I have a strong suspicion that you are buying the same things on the sabbath that I am buying on the sabbath .
Do you want to know what these things are ? Would this not be important for you to know ?
 
Back
Top