The use of Lexicons and Strongs Concordance.

TrevorL said:

Greetings JLB,

There are many different Bible versions, and many translate the various Hebrew and Greek words differently. For example I read from an Interlinear RV/KJV and the RV often gives a different translation, hopefully a more accurate rendition. I also read from a new translation of Isaiah and the author often gives textual comments in the margin as to why he chose a particular word. My reading usually accepts what these scholars give as they are much more acquainted and qualified with the original languages, but a few reliable reference books can help our understanding of a particular verse or word.

Kind regards
Trevor.

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I believe we can see what the Original Author intended by using scripture itself and context in defining biblical words and terms.


Again the Strongs is a good place to start, as well as others, but the biblical definition should always take precedence of such lexicons.

JLB said:

Again the Strongs is a good place to start, as well as others, but the biblical definition should always take precedence of such lexicons.

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Just coming across this thread in New Posts. I'm curious, though, how are you saying you would arrive at accurate definitions without the use of lexicons? Lexicons track the use of words in the ancient language, which is the same thing all translators have done in providing you with the Bibles you have now to read. That means that your Biblical definitions have already been provided to you by the same means.

RBDERRICK said:

A site rule says to let people speak for themselves, and not impute things to them they never said. I have learned to avoid this by asking for clarification.

NewLifeInChrist said:

This is one of my all-time favorite passages. When I was legalistic, it helped me beat people with the Bible. Now that I am free, it helps me convince people they need to seek God's mercy.

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So, now you're free from fearing the Lord and keeping His commandments? Or just free from your works being judged like all men?

Perhaps this is why some get into all that science and scholarship, in order to free themselves from all that childlike reading of Bible 'legalism'. Dumb childishness no doubt.

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Maybe you should follow your own advice. Instead of returning insult for insult, I will try to help you.

If you were to fulfill your only duty to fear God and keep His commandments, then you wouldn't need His mercy and you would be justified in trusting in your works. But that path to rightness with God is not open to you, or anyone else for that matter. As Scripture says, "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Ro 3:20)

If reading the law does not teach you that you are a sinner in need of a Savior, then you are not properly applying the requirements of the law to yourself.

Hidden In Him said:

Just coming across this thread in New Posts. I'm curious, though, how are you saying you would arrive at accurate definitions without the use of lexicons? Lexicons track the use of words in the ancient language, which is the same thing all translators have done in providing you with the Bibles you have now to read. That means that your Biblical definitions have already been provided to you by the same means.

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Hebrew and Greek dictionaries and lexicons are good place to start but should never overrule what the biblical definition and context teach.

I gave an example of this in the Theological Studies Section




The Bible is its own best interpreter, in that the scriptures themselves define for us in some cases what a word or phrase means, either by context or by direct definition.


Contextually we must allow the scriptures to define for us the Authors intent and use of a word to convey His meaning to us.


Here is an example of a biblical definition -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Here is the definition of faith according to the Strongs -

Faith pistis. Strongs 4102 - Noun


I. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
A. relating to God
i. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
B. relating to Christ
i. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
C. the religious beliefs of Christians
D. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
II. fidelity, faithfulness
A. the character of one who can be relied on



The Point: Bible dictionary’s, lexicons, and study guides are a good place to start, but are not necessarily the final say on how a biblical word is defined.

JLB said:

Hebrew and Greek dictionaries and lexicons are good place to start but should never overrule what the biblical definition and context teach.

I gave an example of this in the Theological Studies Section

Defining and Understanding Biblical Words and Terms

Key biblical words and phrases that were used by our Lord, and the writers of the New Testament, may have a different meaning than their modern day counterparts, used today. There is no need for endless debate over simple, basic biblical words and terms, that degrade into unhealthy dialogue...

christianforums.net

The Bible is its own best interpreter, in that the scriptures themselves define for us in some cases what a word or phrase means, either by context or by direct definition.


Contextually we must allow the scriptures to define for us the Authors intent and use of a word to convey His meaning to us.


Here is an example of a biblical definition -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


Here is the definition of faith according to the Strongs -

Faith pistis. Strongs 4102 - Noun


I. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
A. relating to God
i. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
B. relating to Christ
i. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
C. the religious beliefs of Christians
D. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
II. fidelity, faithfulness
A. the character of one who can be relied on



The Point: Bible dictionary’s, lexicons, and study guides are a good place to start, but are not necessarily the final say on how a biblical word is defined.

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I believe Strong is just trying to give the nuanced ways the word is used in the Bible. Here is Louw-Nida's list of ways πίστις (pistis) is used in the NT:


And here is Louw-Nida's translation of one verse they provide as an example for each use:

JLB said:

Contextually we must allow the scriptures to define for us the Authors intent and use of a word to convey His meaning to us.

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Ok, well this statement I agree with, and I got to the 3rd post in your Terms thread and I agree with this as well:

Bible dictionary’s, lexicons, and study guides are a good place to start, but are not necessarily the final say on how a biblical word is defined.

The only thing is, lexicons are often a tool the Holy Spirit will use to help guide you to the proper interpretation.

It could be just a matter of emphasis here. It looks like we essentially agree on things, only sometimes your statements seem to minimize the importance of scholarship. I don't go to scholarship first and foremost, like ever. I let the Holy Spirit guide me in coming to an accurate understanding of a word, a verse, a passage or a book. But in praying to Him for guidance, we will sometimes if not often direct me to such sources, especially something like Liddell-Scott or the CBL, which are all encompassing sources on how a word was used, in Classical, in the LXX, in the NT, and in early church history.

I think most of your respondents may be thinking the same thing I am.

Hidden In Him said:

The only thing is, lexicons are often a tool the Holy Spirit will use to help guide you to the proper interpretation.

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Amen. As I said it's a good place to start.

However, the anointing teaches us all things, and leads us into all truth.

NewLifeInChrist said:

I believe Strong is just trying to give the nuanced ways the word is used in the Bible. Here is Louw-Nida's list of ways πίστις (pistis) is used in the NT:

πίστις, εως f​

a what can be believed: 31.43​

b trust: 31.85​

c trustworthiness: 31.88​

d Christian faith: 31.102​

e doctrine: 31.104​

f promise: 33.289​

​

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). In Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 2, p. 198). United Bible Societies.​

And here is Louw-Nida's translation of one verse they provide as an example for each use:

a -- ‘having provided proof to all by raising him from the dead’ Ac 17:31​

b -- ‘you have faith in God’ Mk 11:22​

c -- that doesn’t mean that their lack of faithfulness annuls the faithfulness of God’ Ro 3:3​

d -- ‘the whole world is hearing that you have faith’ Ro 1:8​

e -- ‘fight on for the faith which once and for all God has given to his people’ Jd 3​

f -- ‘guilty of breaking their earlier pledge of faithfulness’ 1 Tm 5:12​

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Yes, we are grateful for the tremendous work that Mr Strong and others have put forth to help us understand the scriptures better.

JLB said:

Amen. As I said it's a good place to start.

However, the anointing teaches us all things, and leads us into all truth.

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Absolutely.

Hidden In Him said:

Absolutely.

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NewLifeInChrist said:

If you were to fulfill your only duty to fear God and keep His commandments, then you wouldn't need His mercy and you would be justified in trusting in your works.

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You confuse doing our duty to God by His faith, and doing our own righteousness without Christ.

Doning any work without the faith of Jesus Christ, is unjustified with God.

Only doing His righteousness through the faith of Jesus, is justified with God.

NewLifeInChrist said:

But that path to rightness with God is not open to you, or anyone else for that matter. As Scripture says, "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Ro 3:20)

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That path of doing works of the law without Christ, is still open to any who seek justification thereby.

But they are not justified with Christ in doing so.

NewLifeInChrist said:

If reading the law does not teach you that you are a sinner in need of a Savior, then you are not properly applying the requirements of the law to yourself.

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True. No one still trespassing the law of Christ, is justified with God.

Only those repented of all their sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, are not justified by His faith and doing His good works

RBDERRICK said:

You confuse doing our duty to God by His faith, and doing our own righteousness without Christ.

Doning any work without the faith of Jesus Christ, is unjustified with God.

Only doing His righteousness through the faith of Jesus, is justified with God.

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I'm not confused. However, the phrases, "by His faith" and "the faith of Jesus" are red flags to me. It reminds me of some of Watchman Nee's phraseology. Is that where you got it from, or is there another source?

RBDERRICK said:

That path of doing works of the law without Christ, is still open to any who seek justification thereby.

But they are not justified with Christ in doing so.

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I don't understand what point you're trying to make. My point was they can try it, but it won't work. What is your point?

RBDERRICK said:

True. No one still trespassing the law of Christ, is justified with God.

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There's another red flag, "the law of Christ".

RBDERRICK said:

Only those repented of all their sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, are not justified by His faith and doing His good works

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This isn't a sentence, and I can't understand what you're saying.

NewLifeInChrist said:

I'm not confused. However, the phrases, "by His faith" and "the faith of Jesus" are red flags to me. It reminds me of some of Watchman Nee's phraseology. Is that where you got it from, or is there another source?

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If you've never read in the Bible of the faith of Jesus, and keeping His commandments by His faith, then it would be good to do so.

The difference between the faith of Jesus, and the faith of sinners, is that Jesus' faith toward God is to always do His good and righteous will.

The faith of sinners is to either sin at all times, or to sin less than before, but their faith is never to cease sinning and only do the good works of God.

That's why all sinners must repent of their sinning, in order to recieve the righteous faith of Jesus, rather than continuing living with sin by their own faith alone.

NewLifeInChrist said:

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. My point was they can try it, but it won't work. What is your point?

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Same.

NewLifeInChrist said:

There's another red flag, "the law of Christ".

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You can add the law of Christ to your Bible search for the faith of Jesus.

Nowadays it truly is remarkable to search the Scriptures. All it takes is a word search on any online Bible, or downloaded Bible in word.

The law of Christ is the law of His new covenant, that has replaced the law of Moses for the old covenant.

NewLifeInChrist said:

This isn't a sentence, and I can't understand what you're saying.

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Sorry, typo:

Only those repented of all their sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, are now justified by His faith and doing His good works.

I do try to spell check, but don't always see every misspelling. And sometimes it makes the sentence the exact opposite of what's intended.

RBDERRICK said:

If you've never read in the Bible of the faith of Jesus, and keeping His commandments by His faith, then it would be good to do so.

The difference between the faith of Jesus, and the faith of sinners, is that Jesus' faith toward God is to always do His good and righteous will.

The faith of sinners is to either sin at all times, or to sin less than before, but their faith is never to cease sinning and only do the good works of God.

That's why all sinners must repent of their sinning, in order to recieve the righteous faith of Jesus, rather than continuing living with sin by their own faith alone.



Same.


You can add the law of Christ to your Bible search for the faith of Jesus.

Nowadays it truly is remarkable to search the Scriptures. All it takes is a word search on any online Bible, or downloaded Bible in word.

The law of Christ is the law of His new covenant, that has replaced the law of Moses for the old covenant.

Sorry, typo:

Only those repented of all their sins and trespasses for Jesus' sake, are now justified by His faith and doing His good works.

I do try to spell check, but don't always see every misspelling. And sometimes it makes the sentence the exact opposite of what's intended.

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faith of Jesus
There is only one verse with the phrase "faith of Jesus" in NKJV:


There are none in the NASB, NIV, HCSB, or ESV.

law of Christ
There is also only one verse with the phrase "law of Christ" in the NKJV, NIV, HCSB, :


NASB and ESV have one other verse:


Conclusion
Red flags come up when doctrine is built around a phrase of phrases that are rarely present in Scripture and lack substantial descriptive support. These phrases are ripe for inserting into them any meaning one wants to give them. I asked where your phraseology comes from, and you chose not to respond. Why is that?

NewLifeInChrist said:

faith of Jesus
There is only one verse with the phrase "faith of Jesus" in NKJV:

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Re 14:12)​

There are none in the NASB, NIV, HCSB, or ESV.

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BibleHub shows there are 33 versions that use "faith of Jesus."

https://biblehub.com/parallel/revelation/14-12.htm

NewLifeInChrist said:

Conclusion
Red flags come up when

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Red flags come up when people don't agree with something, because they don't like it, and then when it's shown in the Bible by demand, they still don't like it.

NewLifeInChrist said:

doctrine is built around a phrase of phrases that are rarely present in Scripture and lack substantial descriptive support.

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Huge red flags go up with fireworks when the faith of Jesus Christ, is denounced as an unsubstantial rare phrase.

I know some believers preach a gospel of salvation by their own faith alone, but I don't believe I've seen anyone downgrade the faith of Jesus to do so.

I would call this a classic example of scholarship in words, to cover unbelief in Scripture.

2 Timothy{6:20} O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

That is, concerning the faith of Jesus Christ.

NewLifeInChrist said:

These phrases are ripe for inserting into them any meaning one wants to give them. I asked where your phraseology comes from, and you chose not to respond. Why is that?

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I show it's not my phraseology, but Scripture, and you call it unsubstantially rare, and then a non-response? Why is that?

I'd be glad to teach the Scriptural difference between having the faith of Jesus Christ, rather than one's own alone, if you'd like.

Hint: Jesus' faith is righteous to do righteousness. Sinful man's faith is not.

NewLifeInChrist said:

faith of Jesus
There is only one verse with the phrase "faith of Jesus" in NKJV:

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Re 14:12)​

There are none in the NASB, NIV, HCSB, or ESV.

law of Christ
There is also only one verse with the phrase "law of Christ" in the NKJV, NIV, HCSB, :

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. (Ga 6:2)​

NASB and ESV have one other verse:

to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law (1 Co 9:21) NASB​

Conclusion
Red flags come up when doctrine is built around a phrase of phrases that are rarely present in Scripture and lack substantial descriptive support. These phrases are ripe for inserting into them any meaning one wants to give them. I asked where your phraseology comes from, and you chose not to respond. Why is that?

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One thing is for sure. We're seeing the opposing results of a differing use of extra-biblical tools, to prove doctrine of Christ. I don't use anything other than Scripture to prove doctrine of Christ. You advocate a more scholarly aproach with much obvious time spent elsewhere.

P.s. Is doctrine of Christ one of those unsubstantial rare phrases, that should be downgraded beneath the high places of Strong's lexicon and concordance? Personally I prefer Liddel-Scott to research the Koine Greek, so as to avoid all the extra-biblical doctrinal dressing.

RBDERRICK said:

Red flags come up when people don't agree with something, because they don't like it, and then when it's shown in the Bible by demand, they still don't like it.

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Is it Watchman Nee or someone else? You never answered that question.

RBDERRICK said:

Huge red flags go up with fireworks when the faith of Jesus Christ, is denounced as an unsubstantial rare phrase.

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I showed that it is rare by what I posted .I'm not denouncing the phrase because it appears in the Bible, though rarely.

RBDERRICK said:

I know some believers preach a gospel of salvation by their own faith alone, but I don't believe I've seen anyone downgrade the faith of Jesus to do so.

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But now we are getting to the root of the matter. Take a rare phrase (faith of Jesus) and create a doctrine that says salvation is by Jesus' faith, not ours. This doctrine, of course, is unsupported in Scripture. On the contrary,


So, the concerns that the red flags raised proved to be correct.

RBDERRICK said:

I would call this a classic example of scholarship in words, to cover unbelief in Scripture.

2 Timothy{6:20} O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.

That is, concerning the faith of Jesus Christ.

I show it's not my phraseology, but Scripture, and you call it unsubstantially rare, and then a non-response? Why is that?

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I must have missed what you said because I never saw anything of the sort from you. I only saw a post from runningman that said that the phrase was found in many versions of the Bible. That doesn't prove anything. I already conceded it was in some bibles, but is not a common phrase.

RBDERRICK said:

I'd be glad to teach the Scriptural difference between having the faith of Jesus Christ, rather than one's own alone, if you'd like.

Hint: Jesus' faith is righteous to do righteousness. Sinful man's faith is not.

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Tusting Christ (i.e., "faith in Christ") is a human ability that all people possess (Ro 10:8) and it is the one thing people must do in order for God to save them from eternal damnation (Jn 3:16, et. al.). I may be able to help you if you're willing to learn.

RBDERRICK said:

One thing is for sure. We're seeing the opposing results of a differing use of extra-biblical tools, to prove doctrine of Christ. I don't use anything other than Scripture to prove doctrine of Christ. You advocate a more scholarly aproach with much obvious time spent elsewhere.

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"More scholarly" is correct. But I do not rely primarily on scholarship. My main resource is God Himself. He guides my understanding. He gives me joy when I get things right and leaves me unsettled when I don't. Sometimes scholarship helps me get things right. Sometimes not.

RBDERRICK said:

P.s. Is doctrine of Christ one of those unsubstantial rare phrases, that should be downgraded beneath the high places of Strong's lexicon and concordance? Personally I prefer Liddel-Scott to research the Koine Greek, so as to avoid all the extra-biblical doctrinal dressing.

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Yes, I guess so. It's only in one verse in the NKJV. I read into it nothing more than what is written there...

NewLifeInChrist said:

Take a rare phrase (faith of Jesus)

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We see how reliance upon other books of men to know the truth of God, rather than trusting only in the Book of God, leads to discounting as to rarely mentioned the only faith of God that saves by Jesus Christ. So much so, that a great reader of such books had not even heard of such a thing as the faith of Jesus Christ, until told to look for it in the Bible.

The faith of Jesus may be rare in the world, but is the only faith known in heaven, and saves on earth.

And the rarely written faith of Jesus in Scripture, is the all important Scripture of salvation and justification with God.

The faith of Jesus Christ may be rarely written in Scripture, but not the abundance of Scriptures for salvation of the Lord.

The Word was God is even more rare, and said only once. And yet without God the Word being made flesh, dying on a cross, and rising again from the dead, there would be no faith of man on earth toward God to save from sin.

There would still be much faith among men to live as they will on earth, but not any faith of Jesus Christ to live forever.

The importance of God's word is not rated by how many times He says it in Scripture...

NewLifeInChrist said:

and create a doctrine that says salvation is by Jesus' faith, not ours.

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And so, Jesus faith is His, not yours. And any doctrine of Jesus' faith is not the doctrine of your faith. And yet, the only doctrine of Christ by Scripture, is by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Act 24:24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

Rom 1:5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 3:3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

The faith of God is the faith in Christ that saves, and is called the faith of Jesus Christ, not ours.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

The gift of the faith toward God that saves, is that of Jesus Christ, not of ourselves. The faith of ourselves is faith in ourselves.

And the sinners' own faith is to sin more. Jesus' faith is to sin not. The faith of sinners is to be saved in sins. The faith of Jesus Christ is to be saved from sinning.

There is a world of difference between the common faith of sinners, and the rare faith of Jesus Christ:

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

NewLifeInChrist said:

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)​

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Those who believe in Jesus Christ, only do so by the gift of His faith, through the preaching of His faith in God.

Gal 3:22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Which is only given by grace through repentance of our own sins, will, and faith in and of ourselves.

Heb {6:1} Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

NewLifeInChrist said:

Tusting Christ (i.e., "faith in Christ") is a human ability that all people possess (Ro 10:8)

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2Pe 1:1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

We must obtain the faith of Jesus Christ, not by man's power of understanding, but by hearing of the gospel of His faith to save from sin. The faith of Jesus Christ is precious on earth, because it is so rare.

No sinner by understanding, has any faith to be saved from their own sins and trespasses against God and His Christ.

Pro 3:5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Nor lean to thine own faith.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

The promise of Scripture is only to hearers of the word. Not to hearers of the world. The faith of the man Jesus Christ is not the faith nor understanding of the world.

Rom 10:17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Only them hearing and recieving the faith of Jesus Christ, can be saved and justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

NewLifeInChrist said:

and it is the one thing people must do in order for God to save them from eternal damnation (Jn 3:16, et. al.).

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Those who use their ability to posses their own understanding and faith, are not recieving anything from the Lord, but only from and by themselves.

Eph{2:8} For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

We don't do anything to be saved by Jesus Christ, other than to repent and recieve His faith toward God unto salvation of the soul.

We see here how errors against the truth of Scripture are made by preaching one's own understanding of faith, and not by preaching the rare faith of Jesus Christ in Scripture, that has the only rare power of God to save the soul from sinning against Him.

1Co 13:2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.