Unconditional Election

JLB · 2025-01-08T10:11:44-0500

Many believers today following the teachings of Calvinism which are embodied in the 5 points referred to as T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the saints

Here is a site that has outlined these beliefs.

What Is The Doctrine Of Total Depravity? Calvinism, TULIP, And The Reformation – Dr. John Jackson Communications

drjohnjackson.com

In this thread I would like to discuss the biblical validity of Unconditional Election.

Based on this site I will give the definition of Unconditional Election as follows;

Because humans are totally depraved and cannot choose God on their own, God elects some for salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any merit or action of the individual.

Is this a biblical concept?

I believe the Bible teaches us that because God loves the world, He sent His Son to pay the price for our sins, and those who believe will be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

So we see that scripture teaches us whoever believes will be saved.

This principle of believing and being saved is reiterated again by Jesus in the parable of the Sower.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

lest they should believe and be saved.

So we see that scripture teaches us that the condition for any person to be saved is to believe.

JLB

LeviR · 2025-01-08T10:33:10-0500

Some believe the made up words of Calvinism, and for others God’s own words are just fine. Thank you.

BPPLEE · 2025-01-08T10:39:35-0500

JLB said:
Many believers today following the teachings of Calvinism which are embodied in the 5 points referred to as T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the saints

Here is a site that has outlined these beliefs.

What Is The Doctrine Of Total Depravity? Calvinism, TULIP, And The Reformation – Dr. John Jackson Communications

drjohnjackson.com

View attachment 17525

View attachment 17526

In this thread I would like to discuss the biblical validity of Unconditional Election.

Based on this site I will give the definition of Unconditional Election as follows;

Because humans are totally depraved and cannot choose God on their own, God elects some for salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any merit or action of the individual.

Is this a biblical concept?

I believe the Bible teaches us that because God loves the world, He sent His Son to pay the price for our sins, and those who believe will be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

So we see that scripture teaches us whoever believes will be saved.

This principle of believing and being saved is reiterated again by Jesus in the parable of the Sower.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

lest they should believe and be saved.

So we see that scripture teaches us that the condition for any person to be saved is to believe.

JLB

Clearly we must make a decision.
It's hard to understand because from our perspective we have to make a decision but God already knew what that decision would be

Tenchi · 2025-01-08T10:45:03-0500

JLB said:
So we see that scripture teaches us that the condition for any person to be saved is to believe.

Well, that's not quite the whole story.

Matthew 18:2-4
2 And calling to him a child, he [Jesus] put him in the midst of them
3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

JLB said:
Based on this site I will give the definition of Unconditional Election as follows;

Because humans are totally depraved and cannot choose God on their own, God elects some for salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any merit or action of the individual.

Is this a biblical concept?

No, Total Depravity is an eisegetical thing, read into Scripture by Calvinists. There is no verse anywhere in Scripture that says all people from birth are "totally depraved." What then, of Unconditional Election? Well, besides it being based on the scripturally non-existent idea of Total Depravity, this "doctrine of grace" makes a mistake in modal logic, confusing matters of necessity and consequence.

See: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/foreknowledge-and-fatalism-once-more

The Priority of Future Contingents to God’s Foreknowledge | Reasonable Faith

Hello Dr. Craig. My wife and I have been studying through your Defenders 3 lectures on YouTube. We have been really enjoying the material and having good discussion as a result. In the Doctrine of God, lecture 14, you talked about God's foreknowledge and human free will. You distinguished...

www.reasonablefaith.org

The Calvinist/Reformed proponent will tell you, though, that "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) means "utterly without capacity to respond," to be corpse-like in one's response to God (and the Gospel). Of course, Scripture contradicts this idea with many examples of men who, without being spiritually-regenerated, men who are supposed to be "dead" from birth toward God, are given high praise by God in His word for being faithful, righteous and God-fearing, men like Job, Noah, Enoch, Daniel, David and Cornelius, to name a few.

As you'll see in this thread, Calvinists read God's word through the lens of their Calvinism and thus see their Calvinist presupposition of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election (and the rest of TULIP) everywhere in Scripture, though it is not evident at all to those studying God's word without such a lens.

LeviR · 2025-01-08T10:56:55-0500

Tenchi said:
Well, that's not quite the whole story.

Matthew 18:2-4
2 And calling to him a child, he [Jesus] put him in the midst of them
3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

No, Total Depravity is an eisegetical thing, read into Scripture by Calvinists. There is no verse anywhere in Scripture that says all people from birth are "totally depraved." What then, of Unconditional Election? Well, besides it being based on the scripturally non-existent idea of Total Depravity, this "doctrine of grace" makes a mistake in modal logic, confusing matters of necessity and consequence.

See: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/foreknowledge-and-fatalism-once-more

The Priority of Future Contingents to God’s Foreknowledge | Reasonable Faith

Hello Dr. Craig. My wife and I have been studying through your Defenders 3 lectures on YouTube. We have been really enjoying the material and having good discussion as a result. In the Doctrine of God, lecture 14, you talked about God's foreknowledge and human free will. You distinguished...

www.reasonablefaith.org

The Calvinist/Reformed proponent will tell you, though, that "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) means "utterly without capacity to respond," to be corpse-like in one's response to God (and the Gospel). Of course, Scripture contradicts this idea with many examples of men who, without being spiritually-regenerated, men who are supposed to be "dead" from birth toward God, are given high praise by God in His word for being faithful, righteous and God-fearing, men like Job, Noah, Enoch, Daniel, David and Cornelius, to name a few.

As you'll see in this thread, Calvinists read God's word through the lens of their Calvinism and thus see their Calvinist presupposition of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election (and the rest of TULIP) everywhere in Scripture, though it is not evident at all to those studying God's word without such a lens.

Because they start with a false premise, the rest is the same.

Bruce.Leiter · 2025-01-08T12:49:54-0500

JLB said:
Many believers today following the teachings of Calvinism which are embodied in the 5 points referred to as T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the saints

Here is a site that has outlined these beliefs.

What Is The Doctrine Of Total Depravity? Calvinism, TULIP, And The Reformation – Dr. John Jackson Communications

drjohnjackson.com

View attachment 17525

View attachment 17526

In this thread I would like to discuss the biblical validity of Unconditional Election.

Based on this site I will give the definition of Unconditional Election as follows;

Because humans are totally depraved and cannot choose God on their own, God elects some for salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any merit or action of the individual.

Is this a biblical concept?

I believe the Bible teaches us that because God loves the world, He sent His Son to pay the price for our sins, and those who believe will be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

So we see that scripture teaches us whoever believes will be saved.

This principle of believing and being saved is reiterated again by Jesus in the parable of the Sower.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

lest they should believe and be saved.

So we see that scripture teaches us that the condition for any person to be saved is to believe.

JLB

Your conclusion doesn't fit the texts exactly. The texts say that salvation and belief happen at the same time, not that belief is "the condition" for being saved.

JLB · 2025-01-08T12:52:04-0500

Tenchi said:
Well, that's not quite the whole story.

Matthew 18:2-4
2 And calling to him a child, he [Jesus] put him in the midst of them
3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

No, Total Depravity is an eisegetical thing, read into Scripture by Calvinists. There is no verse anywhere in Scripture that says all people from birth are "totally depraved." What then, of Unconditional Election? Well, besides it being based on the scripturally non-existent idea of Total Depravity, this "doctrine of grace" makes a mistake in modal logic, confusing matters of necessity and consequence.

See: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/foreknowledge-and-fatalism-once-more

The Priority of Future Contingents to God’s Foreknowledge | Reasonable Faith

Hello Dr. Craig. My wife and I have been studying through your Defenders 3 lectures on YouTube. We have been really enjoying the material and having good discussion as a result. In the Doctrine of God, lecture 14, you talked about God's foreknowledge and human free will. You distinguished...

www.reasonablefaith.org

The Calvinist/Reformed proponent will tell you, though, that "dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1) means "utterly without capacity to respond," to be corpse-like in one's response to God (and the Gospel). Of course, Scripture contradicts this idea with many examples of men who, without being spiritually-regenerated, men who are supposed to be "dead" from birth toward God, are given high praise by God in His word for being faithful, righteous and God-fearing, men like Job, Noah, Enoch, Daniel, David and Cornelius, to name a few.

As you'll see in this thread, Calvinists read God's word through the lens of their Calvinism and thus see their Calvinist presupposition of Total Depravity and Unconditional Election (and the rest of TULIP) everywhere in Scripture, though it is not evident at all to those studying God's word without such a lens.

I’m sticking to what Jesus taught.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

So we see that scripture teaches us whoever believes will be saved.

This principle of believing and being saved is reiterated again by Jesus in the parable of the Sower.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believeand be saved. Luke 8:12

lest they should believe and be saved.

So we see that scripture teaches us that the condition for any person to be saved is to believe.

IOW each person must believe the Gospel in order to be saved.

No where does the Bible teach that people are elected to be saved.

Of course to understand what the biblical word believe means is another discussion, whir we can discuss in another thread.

In this thread I was hoping to just discuss the doctrine of unconditional election.

JLB · 2025-01-08T12:58:12-0500

Bruce.Leiter said:
Your conclusion doesn't fit the texts exactly. The texts say that salvation and belief happen at the same time, not that belief is "the condition" for being saved.

Ok let’s discuss that. Good point.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

lest they should believe and be saved.

Here is where I see the condition for salvation is to believe.

Those by the wayside all heard the Gospel but were not saved.

What was missing was the didn’t believe.

That’s why I said the condition… maybe condition isn’t the right word?

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

JLB

Whatever · 2025-01-09T10:47:46-0500

JLB said:
So we see that scripture teaches us that the condition for any person to be saved is to believe.

So then you don't believe infants and mentally retarded can be saved.

When Calvinists say "unconditional" what we mean is there might be conditions in God's mind, but those conditions are not anything we can do, like believe or be baptized or pray the sinners prayer.

Remember, we are talking about unconditional election, something you seem to reject.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Chosen for salvation - through sanctification by the Spirit - and then comes belief in the truth.
"The Holy Spirit is the Agent in sanctification. The sanctification of the Spirit is associated with the choice, or election, of God; it is a Divine act preceding the acceptance of the Gospel by the individual."

Whatever · 2025-01-09T10:50:02-0500

LeviR said:
Some believe the made up words of Calvinism, and for others God’s own words are just fine.

They are not fine if you reject them, like the one below.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

Whatever · 2025-01-09T11:01:28-0500

BPPLEE said:
Clearly we must make a decision.
It's hard to understand because from our perspective we have to make a decision but God already knew what that decision would be

That is what 99% of "Christians believe. That God looks forward into time (foreknowledge) and sees who will believe and then elects them. But they forget one thing even Jesus says:
Matthew 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

So according to the "looking forward into time view," God doesn't just elect people He sees start to believe, but only elects those who endure to the end. So it is possible for millions of people in our churches to be non elect because God foresaw their falling away. If God never elected them, He never gives them the Holy Spirit to sanctify them, and thus they are never really saved. Thus when they do finally fall away, they do not lose their salvation because they were never saved.

Thus with your view, once saved always saved has to be true because only those who God foresaw would endure to the end will be elected to be saved and God knows they will endure to the end.

LeviR · 2025-01-09T11:22:57-0500

Whatever said:
They are not fine if you reject them, like the one below.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

They are chosen from the beginning because the gospel of salvation is from the beginning and they answered the call of it.
It is a call by the Spirit because it has been written by inspired men for our learning the truth of it.
A call to walk in newness of life. Not as they had before, serving the deceitfulness of lusts whereby their hearts and minds had been corrupted.

Tenchi · 2025-01-09T12:27:39-0500

JLB said:
I’m sticking to what Jesus taught.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

So we see that scripture teaches us whoever believes will be saved.

This principle of believing and being saved is reiterated again by Jesus in the parable of the Sower.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believeand be saved. Luke 8:12

lest they should believe and be saved.

So we see that scripture teaches us that the condition for any person to be saved is to believe.

You didn't understand my point. I never denied that belief wasn't necessary, only that it isn't, alone, what is required for salvation, as Jesus said in the passage I cited from Matthew 18. Humility, too, is vital. The person who would be saved must trust in Christ as their Savior and their LORD (Romans 10:9-10). There is no reconciliation of a lost sinner to God who does not humble himself before His holy Maker.

JLB said:
No where does the Bible teach that people are elected to be saved.

I agree. As I pointed out, the Calvinist makes a mistake in modal logic when they insist God's foreknowledge is necessarily causative.

JLB said:
In this thread I was hoping to just discuss the doctrine of unconditional election.

Which I did in my last post. Did you actually read it?

JLB · 2025-01-09T12:57:50-0500

Whatever said:
So then you don't believe infants and mentally retarded can be saved.

Children, infants, babies that are innocent as well as those who have no cognitive recognition of good and evil, anre innocent and are in God’s hands.

Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
Deuteronomy 1:39

JLB · 2025-01-09T13:11:04-0500

Whatever said:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Initial salvation comes at the beginning of your faith, which is being born again (regeneration) comes by believing and therefore obeying the Gospel; obeying the truth.

That’s how we are born again, by obeying the truth through the Spirit.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

Receiving the salvation of your soul, the thing we hope for, comes as an end result of a life of faith; a life of sanctification unto holiness.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

This is a lifelong process… the process of becoming sons of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12

to them gave he power to become the sons of God

It all starts with believing.

JLB

JLB · 2025-01-09T13:16:22-0500

Tenchi said:
You didn't understand my point. I never denied that belief wasn't necessary, only that it isn't, alone, what is required for salvation

Believing is where salvation begins.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Initial salvation comes at the beginning of your faith, which is being born again (regeneration) comes by believing and therefore obeying the Gospel; obeying the truth.

That’s how we are born again, by obeying the truth through the Spirit.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23

Receiving the salvation of your soul, the thing we hope for, comes as an end result of a life of faith; a life of sanctification unto holiness.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

This is a lifelong process… the process of becoming sons of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12

to them gave he power to become the sons of God

It all starts with believing.

Tenchi · 2025-01-09T13:31:36-0500

JLB said:
Believing is where salvation begins.

??? Knowledge necessarily precedes belief. One cannot believe something about which one knows nothing.

Also salvation has an single starting point at conversion when a person is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus "baptized" into Christ. Being made a "temple of the Spirit" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) is not a progressive thing, occurring slowly over time.

And we aren't born-again by our obedience but by the Holy Spirit. He makes us "new creatures in Christ" and he alone.

Finally, we receive the end of our faith which is eternity in heaven with God because we are saved by Christ. We are in him and thus fully and always accepted by God. Our works have nothing to do with our salvation. Our salvation is a Person not our ability to be holy. See John 14:6, Acts 4:12, 1 Timothy 2:5.

JLB · 2025-01-09T13:35:20-0500

Tenchi said:
Knowledge necessarily precedes belief. One cannot believe something about which one knows nothing.

Yes the process is laid out for us in scripture.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

JLB

JLB · 2025-01-09T13:36:26-0500

Tenchi said:
And we aren't born-again by our obedience but by the Holy Spirit. He makes us "new creatures in Christ" and he alone.

Yes we are born again by the Spirit.

However, we are not born again until we believe…

CFN has a new look and a new theme

Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

CFN welcomes new contributing members!

Have questions about the Christian faith?

Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

Focus on the Family

Unconditional Election

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life