Unconditional Election

[Whatever]

They are chosen from the beginning because the gospel of salvation is from the beginning and they answered the call of it.

But how were they chosen from the beginning if they didn't answer the call till way after the beginning.
It makes more sense to say they were chosen from the beginning to answer the call at God's timing.

Something like this. Before the foundation of the world, God chose Joe Blow to be born in Kansan City in 1983, and then when Joe Blow is 50 years old, he will hear the gospel and the Holy Spirit will open his heart to respond to that gospel message and then he is saved and will endure to the end.

Joe Blows brother who was born 5 years earlier, God simply passed over and left him to his own devices. He lived a pretty good life, never got into trouble, but would never accept the gospel when he heard it.
He that believes the gospel (Joe Blow) is not condemned: but he that does not believe (Joe Blow's brother) is condemned, because he has rejected the gospel.

 

[JLB]

So then there will be two classes of people in Heaven.
1. Sinners who are saved by the blood of Christ
2. Those who were innocent and don't need a savior.

Calvinism could at least say that these "innocent" were still born children of wrath because they are in Adam, and God can apply the blood of Christ to them and translate them from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of His dear Son, by sheer grace, not because they deserve it.

Maybe you could share the scriptures that teach this so we can discuss it.


I don’t find any scriptures that teach God “unconditionally elects” people to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Jesus taught that God so loves the world.

He also taught that whoever believes in Him will have everlasting life.


Do you believe this?

 

[Arial]

Based on this site I will give the definition of Unconditional Election as follows;

• Because humans are totally depraved and cannot choose God on their own, God elects some for salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any merit or action of the individual.

Is this a biblical concept?

Yes. Except I would clarify. Unregenerate man (man in his natural state) cannot choose God because they don't want to. We do not go against our own will. I will give scriptures that verify God electing unto salvation is exactly what he does if you like. But what we end up with is a series of scriptures not fully exegeted into the full counsel of God. So, I will simply point out that there is not a place in the Scriptures where it is not God choosing and for whatever purpose. He is a covenant God, meaning covenants are a means of relationship between the creature man and the transcendent, invisible God. He reveals himself in covenant relationships from beginning to end.

No one ever decides who will and will not be brought into a covenant with God. Only God does that.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

So we see that scripture teaches us whoever believes will be saved.

Yes it does teach that. It does not say in that passage (isolated from all the rest of Scripture to form a doctrine) that whoever chooses to believe will be saved. So who are the ones who believe. The answer is all the verses leading to and following verse 16, and a sack full of other scriptures.

So we see that scripture teaches us whoever believes will be saved.


This principle of believing and being saved is reiterated again by Jesus in the parable of the Sower.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

So we see that scripture teaches us that the condition for any person to be saved is to believe.

It isn't really a condition of salvation unless one believes that salvation is by works of our own initiative Eph 2:8 would resolve the issue all by itself unless one can't accept the clear meaning and seeks a way to change it. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And that is not your own doing; it is a gift of God---

 

[JLB]

Yes. Except I would clarify. Unregenerate man (man in his natural state) cannot choose God because they don't want to. We do not go against our own will. I will give scriptures that verify God electing unto salvation is exactly what he does if you like. But what we end up with is a series of scriptures not fully exegeted into the full counsel of God. So, I will simply point out that there is not a place in the Scriptures where it is not God choosing and for whatever purpose. He is a covenant God, meaning covenants are a means of relationship between the creature man and the transcendent, invisible God. He reveals himself in covenant relationships from beginning to end.

No one ever decides who will and will not be brought into a covenant with God. Only God does that.

Yes it does teach that. It does not say in that passage (isolated from all the rest of Scripture to form a doctrine) that whoever chooses to believe will be saved. So who are the ones who believe. The answer is all the verses leading to and following verse 16, and a sack full of other scriptures.

It isn't really a condition of salvation unless one believes that salvation is by works of our own initiative Eph 2:8 would resolve the issue all by itself unless one can't accept the clear meaning and seeks a way to change it. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And that is not your own doing; it is a gift of God---

Thank goodness we don't have to rely on man, or man's doctrine to know the truth about who God desires to be saved, since we have the scriptures.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4


This even includes the elect. God also desires for the elect to also be saved.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


God loves unsaved people and desires all men to be saved.


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14

 

[Whatever]

Maybe you could share the scriptures that teach this so we can discuss it.

We can't discuss anything. No matter what passage I give you, you will just deny it says X and say it means Z.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes. Except I would clarify. Unregenerate man (man in his natural state) cannot choose God because they don't want to. We do not go against our own will.

Greetings, and I would disagree. I came to Christ out of Satanism, and I wanted a new form of life; a new way of viewing the world. I wanted it, and before I was ever regenerated.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

 

[Arial]

Thank goodness we don't have to rely on man, or man's doctrine to know the truth about who God desires to be saved, since we have the scriptures.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3-4

Would you be so kind as to give an exegesis of that passage within its context? And make sure that it contradicts nothing else in Scripture.

This even includes the elect. God also desires for the elect to also be saved.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

Just for the sake of clarity, let me present the entire set of passages as they appear in the Bible. As opposed to using them inappropriately as you have done. I will begin with the first passage from 1 Tim 2. (Two separate letters to a specific person about different and specific things.

2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

There are some key words in there that help us determine the meaning. Perhaps you can find them when you do the exegesis?

2 Tim 2

2 You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. 3Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him. 5An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. 6It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. 7Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

8Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! 10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Why is the word "therefore" in verse 10?

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Would you be so kind as to give an exegesis of that scripture within its context---which includes the surrounding text. And make sure it does not contradict anything else in the Bible. If that is done:
Who are the "you"?
Who then would be the "any"?
Who are the "all"?

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14

If you read Is 11 and Rev 21:1-8 in particular, you will see that the Son indeed will save the whole created world. However even you surely acknowledge that he does not save every individual in the world. And if Jesus was sent to do that, then he failed. So it cannot be used to deny the doctrine of election.

 

[Arial]

Greetings, and I would disagree. I came to Christ out of Satanism, and I wanted a new form of life; a new way of viewing the world. I wanted it, and before I was ever regenerated.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

Wanting a new form of life is not automatically wanting God. So I need a bit more clarification.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Wanting a new form of life is not automatically wanting God. So I need a bit more clarification.

I wanted a different form of life but didn't know exactly what it was, and then realized I wanted to follow the Lord Jesus Christ when I picked up a Bible and started reading it.

 

[JLB]

Would you be so kind as to give an exegesis of that passage within its context? And make sure that it contradicts nothing else in Scripture.

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-7

Paul exhorts Timothy and those whom Timothy is overseeing to pray and intercede for all men.

Paul plainly says this God and acceptable to God, Because God desires all men to be saved.

• For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God desires all men to be saved. Plain and simple.

 

[JLB]

2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

 

[JLB]

10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Therefore connects what he just said, with what he is about to say.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


Do you believe that the Lord wants the elect to also obtain salvation... based on what Paul just said?

 

[BPPLEE]

That is what 99% of "Christians believe. That God looks forward into time (foreknowledge) and sees who will believe and then elects them. But they forget one thing even Jesus says:
Matthew 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

So according to the "looking forward into time view," God doesn't just elect people He sees start to believe, but only elects those who endure to the end. So it is possible for millions of people in our churches to be non elect because God foresaw their falling away. If God never elected them, He never gives them the Holy Spirit to sanctify them, and thus they are never really saved. Thus when they do finally fall away, they do not lose their salvation because they were never saved.

Thus with your view, once saved always saved has to be true because only those who God foresaw would endure to the end will be elected to be saved and God knows they will endure to the end.

First of all, I'm not a Calvinist
and I wasn't getting into election, clearly we make a choice

 

[JLB]

We can't discuss anything. No matter what passage I give you, you will just deny it says X and say it means Z.

Just try.

Please share the scripture you believe validates your statement.

 

[Whatever]

Please share the scripture you believe validates your statement.

Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21

 

[Whatever]

and I wasn't getting into election, clearly we make a choice

Yes, everybody makes a choice. But that choice is determined by out status.

John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

The Jews surrounding Him made the choice not to believe because they were not of His sheep.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

His sheep hear His voice and choose to follow Him.

 

[Whatever]

I wanted it, and before I was ever regenerated.

How do you know that? If you "wanted it" it is because the Lord put the "wanting" in you.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

 

[Arial]

Therefore connects what he just said, with what he is about to say.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

Obviously. But what does he say before the "therefore" and what is the connection to what he says here? And to the purpose of the letter and who it is to when Paul knows that his time on earth is very short at that point? How does what is in the "therefore" interpret the scripture? Do you agree with the aspect of sola scriptura that says scripture interprets scripture?

Do you believe that the Lord wants the elect to also obtain salvation... based on what Paul just said?

That is a self answering question. I will give you a clue. Go back to chapter 1, check the book introduction if you have a study Bible, and find out why Paul is writing that letter to Timothy. Then you will be able to check what I am about to say.

Paul is about to leave this earth and he is instructing and encouraging Timothy to endure in sound doctrine and to train others to follow in his footsteps in holding to the faith and sound doctrine after Timothy also leaves the earth, whenever that is, and so on and so on. So that the foundation of doctrine that the apostles laid is not lost. He warns Timothy that he too will suffer, just as he (Paul) has suffered for the sake of the elect. That is not a statement of "in addition to" the elect. But a statement of "for them". It is actually a confirmation of election by God, whereas you are using it as the reverse.

 

[Arial]

there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

You jump to a conclusion and say the key words in that entire set of passages is "for all", claiming then, that Jesus died for all men without exception when the actual key words that I was looking for would define who the "all" are. A bit of logic may help.

If Jesus paid a ransom for all men without exception then all men would be saved. It would not even hinge on faith. And we know that is not true. So that cannot be what that passage means by "all".

I will quote the scripture again and highlight the key words that define who the "all" in that passage are. And remember, this is a letter of instruction to Timothy concerning the church.

1 Tim 2:1-6 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom--- for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Some translations say "all men" instead of "all people" and though not inaccurate, that is somewhat misleading (obviously since it is the go to scripture in denying election). The full counsel of God on the same subject presents all men as not being saved by the ransom Jesus paid, so "people" better relates to the rest of the content. The following categories of people "kings and all in high positions", qualifies the "all" as types of people. And this counsel for the members of the body of Christ, and particularly in church gatherings corporately, is serving two purposes. First, that they (the Christians) might live a peaceful and quiet life. And secondly, since God saves all types of people, no matter what their station in life or where they live, no one is saved by any other than the one mediator between God and men. The church is a witness to Christ the one mediator.

 

[Arial]

I wanted a different form of life but didn't know exactly what it was, and then realized I wanted to follow the Lord Jesus Christ when I picked up a Bible and started reading it.

That is good! "My sheep hear my voice and follow me."