Unconditional Election

[JLB]

That is a self answering question.

It’s a simple question.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


I have engaged in many discussions over the years here in this Forum and others.

Many people say they believe what the scriptures say… however I have found that few really do?

Do you believe that the Lord wants the elect to also obtain salvation... based on what Paul just said? Based on the actual words of scripture?

 

[Arial]

It’s a simple question.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


I have engaged in many discussions over the years here in this Forum and others.

Many people say they believe what the scriptures say… however I have found that few really do?

Do you believe that the Lord wants the elect to also obtain salvation... based on what Paul just said? Based on the actual words of scripture?

Did you finish reading my post or stop with the first sentence?

 

[JLB]

You jump to a conclusion and say the key words in that entire set of passages is "for all", claiming then, that Jesus died for all men without exception when the actual key words that I was looking for would define who the "all" are. A bit of logic may help.

I never said the key words in the entire set of passages is “for all”, those are your words.

I emphasized the words for all because that is what the verse actually says and is in harmony with the rest of the New Testament theme.

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of
the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-6

For all men seems to be a consistent theme in this set of verses.


It sure aligns with John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Maybe you could share with us the group of people who is excluded from God’s plan of salvation?



JLB

 

[Arial]

I never said the key words in the entire set of passages is “for all”, those are your words.

Well, I ask what the key words were in the entire set of passages that would identify who the "all" are in verse 4 when Paul says "he desires all men to be saved." You didn't do that and you still haven't. Maybe it is not important to make sure we get the foundational doctrines of Christianity straight and keep them straight throughout history, just as Paul was instructing and encouraging Timothy to do?

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of
the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. 1 Timothy 2:1-6

For all men seems to be a consistent theme in this set of verses.

You have only highlighted the "all's". My point and purpose here is to identify what Paul means when he says "all men". Why is it important to do this?

Because right off the bat, if we consider that it means all men without exception, we have some glaring contradictions within the Bible, not the least of which is that God somehow is not really omnipotent. He fails to get what he desires. Equal to that monster of an idea, is that Jesus gave himself as a ransom (carefully consider what a ransom is) for all men without exception, and that lifeblood shed on the cross failed to do what it was shed for more often than it succeeded.

Now a person can go merrily on their way, neglecting to consider those three things, (a God who fails and is powerless in the face of humanities sinfulness, a Christ who dies in vain because of man's choices, and contradictions within the scriptures) and think all is well and "all" means all without exception in those passages. And it is true, that any God has elected and therefore that is why they believe, even though they believe they did the choosing in the matter, will never lose that salvation; it is also true according to Paul in 1 Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay straw---each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

 

[Arial]

It sure aligns with John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

We have been over that twice in such a very short time. But I have yet to see any effort put forth to refute what I have said about it. All I have received is other scriptures quoted that are presented as meaning the same thing that is presumed to be meant by John 3:16. A "Look over here. This says "all" also." of "Look over here, this says "world" so it means all people without exception". So I carefully, exegetically identified a different usage of "all" and "world" from the full text itself. And those two or three times that I did so, were also given no effort to refute. I don't see that changing so a profitable, what is evidently being passed as a conversation when it is not one, has pretty much come to an end. Unless there is a change and an actual engagement with what I say as well.

Maybe you could share with us the group of people who is excluded from God’s plan of salvation?

There is no"group of people" who are excluded. And I have said exactly the opposite of that.

 

[Hidden In Him]

How do you know that? If you "wanted it" it is because the Lord put the "wanting" in you.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Because He hadn't made me alive yet.

 

[Hidden In Him]

That is good! "My sheep hear my voice and follow me."

Yes, and His sheep become more than conquerors through Christ Jesus who strengthens them, and all the Devil intended is brought to nothing.

 

[Arial]

Yes, and His sheep become more than conquerors through Christ Jesus who strengthens them, and all the Devil intended is brought to nothing.

True.

 

[Whatever]

You jump to a conclusion and say the key words in that entire set of passages is "for all", claiming then, that Jesus died for all men without exception when the actual key words that I was looking for would define who the "all" are. A bit of logic may help.

It won't help. He has been told over and over again. The word "all" (pas in the Greek) is used several times to mean "all kinds" or "all manner."

Acts 10:11-12
Young's Literal Translation
11 and he doth behold the heaven opened, and descending unto him a certain vessel, as a great sheet, bound at the four corners, and let down upon the earth, 12 in which were all the four-footed beasts of the earth, and the wild beasts, and the creeping things, and the fowls of the heaven,

Everybody knows that a sheet wouldn't be big enough for every 4 footed beast of the Earth, even the translators of the King James.
King James
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

New American Standard
12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.

God tells us
Isaiah 46:9, 10
9 . . . . I am God, and there is none like me, 10 who announces the end from the beginning and reveals beforehand[a] what has not yet occurred; who says, ‘My plan will be realized, I will accomplish what I desire;’

So, if God accomplishes all He desires, what actually happens at the end. Are all men without exception saved?
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

It sounds like God's desire of all kinds of men to be saved is what comes to pass.

 

[JLB]

We have been over that twice in such a very short time. But I have yet to see any effort put forth to refute what I have said about it.

I use scripture to expose unbiblical theories.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

• For God so loved the world

I believe God loves the world of unsaved people.

If you don’t believe this then please share with us who is excluded from God’s love and God’s plan of salvation?

 

[JLB]

Well, I ask what the key words were in the entire set of passages that would identify who the "all" are in verse 4 when Paul says "he desires all men to be saved."

I have given you scriptures within the context 1 Timothy 2:3-4 going back to the beginning of chapter 2.

Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
1 Timothy 2:1-7

God desires all men to be saved.

This even includes the elect. God desires for the elect to also be saved.


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they alsomay obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10

This is what I believe, based on the consistent theme of all the New Testament.

God loves unsaved people and desires all men to be saved.


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9


And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14



If you don’t believe this then please show me the people who are excluded from God’s love and desire for all men to be saved?




JLB

 

[Arial]

It’s a simple question.

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10


I have engaged in many discussions over the years here in this Forum and others.

Many people say they believe what the scriptures say… however I have found that few really do?

Do you believe that the Lord wants the elect to also obtain salvation... based on what Paul just said? Based on the actual words of scripture?

If God elects them would that not mean that he wants them to obtain salvation? What does elect mean? Or what do those who seem to think the question they pose, "Does God also want the elect to be saved?" think "elect" means, that makes it a reasonable question?

 

[JLB]

If God elects them would that not mean that he wants them to obtain salvation? What does elect mean? Or what do those who seem to think the question they pose, "Does God also want the elect to be saved?" think "elect" means, that makes it a reasonable question?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

Elect is not mentioned in this verses.

• For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Why would God send His Son into the world to suffer a horrible death for those who are already saved?

 

[JLB]

What does elect mean?

Election for purpose, not salvation. That is the context of Romans 9.

• that the purpose of God according to election might stand,

The purpose God elected specific individuals from Abraham’s offspring was to be the bloodline lineage of Jesus Christ.

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), Romans 9:1-11

 

[Arial]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

Elect is not mentioned in this verses.

That is because that passage is not talking about election but about Jesus. He gives the means of salvation in the previous verses. By being born again by the Holy Spirit. As to who He (the Holy Spirit) regenerates it is like the wind. No one knows where it is going or where it comes from. The Holy Spirit, like the wind, goes where he pleases.

And the verses that follow 16-17 have been neglected in arriving at a doctrine that opposes the entire discourse. 18-21
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.

Why would God send His Son into the world to suffer a horrible death for those who are already saved?

They aren't "already" saved. They are already his sheep but they must be gathered into the fold. That is what Christians are assigned to do since he is no longer physically present, having completed the work necessary, when we preach the gospel. Jesus implies this in John 10:11-16 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold (Israel who he was speaking to). I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, and one shepherd. (Inclusion of Gentiles. The whole world and not just Israel.) Jesus through the Holy Spirit of Christ indwelling the Christian is the power of the drawing through the preached gospel.

 

[JLB]

That is because that passage is not talking about election but about Jesus.

Jesus and those who receive everlasting life by believing in Him.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[JLB]

They are already his sheep but they must be gathered into the fold.

They aren’t saved but they are His sheep?

Sounds complicated.

So the Totally Depraved are really His sheep, but their not saved?


Fascinating, to say the least.

 

[JLB]

He gives the means of salvation in the previous verses. By being born again by the Holy Spirit.

Yes and the way the means of salvation He describes in
John 3:3-6 is obtained, is by believing.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Whoever ( pas; G3956) indicates everyone in the world.
All men.


He reiterates this in the parable of the Sower.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

JLB

 

[Whatever]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

Elect is not mentioned in this verses.

No, but "whoever believes" does. Do you not believe that God is omniscient and knows the future?
Do you think that God having infallible foreknowledge of all those who wouldn't believe, actually thought, hoped, wished, that these unbelieving ones might actually fool Him and believe and be saved?

What kind of God do you believe in?

 

[JLB]

No, but "whoever believes" does. Do you not believe that God is omniscient and knows the future?
Do you think that God having infallible foreknowledge of all those who wouldn't believe, actually thought, hoped, wished, that these unbelieving ones might actually fool Him and believe and be saved?

What kind of God do you believe in?

I believe in the God of truth.

His word is the truth.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The condition for a person to have everlasting life is to believe.


JLB