A Cessationist Passage?

Hidden In Him · Friday at 11:43 PM

Is 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 A Cessationist Passage?

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).

The Greek used here was βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι' ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον, which reads literally as "now we see through a glass in an enigma, but then face to face." Paul was here making use of Numbers 12, where it states, "Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent, and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, He said, 'Listen to My words. When there is a prophet among you, I the Lord reveal Myself to him in visions. I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of My servant Moses. He is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face clearly, and not in enigmas. He sees the [very] form of the Lord. Why, then, were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:5-8, LXX).

Paul used the same two phrases from this passage in Numbers from the LXX (Greek translation of the Old Testament), which shows this is the passage he was alluding to, and he used these exact same two expressions to make the same comparisons. God spoke "face to face" (πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον) with Moses, but to His prophets He spoke "in enigmas" (ἐν αἰνίγματι). An enigma is what a prophetic dream or vision is like. It is a riddle, which is why some translations read, "For now we see through a glass in obscurity (or in riddles)." Throughout ancient Greek, the word αίνιγμα is almost invariably translated into English as "dark sayings, riddles," hence the translations, "seeing through a glass darkly." In ancient times, glass was not nearly as refined as it is now. You could see through it a little, but the image was often very blurry and "dark," thus it took perception to discern what you were actually looking at through it. This parallels with what it is like to interpret prophetic dreams and visions, and also to what it is like prophesying directly over the lives of others one does not know. The one prophesying doesn't have a clue about the person he is prophesying over, so he is simply uttering what the Spirit of God is leading him to say even though at the moment he is still completely in the dark about it.

Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of operating in tongues and prophecy, and point out how prophecy is superior, being the greater gift, because it brings greater edification to the saints. But until we get to Heaven, Biblical prophecy would always be needed because we do not truly see one another face to face yet and know one another's inner most secrets as God does. In conclusion then and in context, the passage has nothing to do with the gifts ceasing or the canon being closed. Quite the opposite, it teaches the need for the gifts until the Lord comes.

Below is a Christian apologist discussing this passage, and the pros and cons of the two most prominent Cessationist arguments. I have not finished it yet, but I have found the parts I have been able to watch quite informative. Comments on either my write up or the video are welcome, but please keep the discussion centered on 1 Corinthians 13 and the surrounding Chapters and verses.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

Hidden In Him · Friday at 11:51 PM

I may be booked up tomorrow, but I should be free after that to answer any and all questions or comments.

Blessings,
- H

electedbyHim · Saturday at 6:37 AM

I have not watched the video as of yet.

Hidden In Him, I would like to know how you define the word prophecy?

I think it is helps us understand 1 Corinthians 13:8

There are many different ways that I have heard the word defined.

Free said in another thread...

Prince Harry. Really? Why would God need for people to know that? That is the "Christian" equivalent of fortune telling.

All that to point out that a serious lack of discernment in some Christian circles leads to many being led astray by supposed direct revelations from God, rather than sticking to the revelation already given in the Bible.

I agree with Free on that. This can also lead to soothsaying.

Prophecy can be anything to anyone, but is it really prophecy?

Some claim that their sense of intuition is prophecy and is special revelation from God. I believe alot of it borders on clairvoyance.

G4394
προφητεία
prophēteia
Thayer Definition:
1) prophecy
1a) a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events
1b) Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
1b1) of the prediction of events relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
1b2) of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
1b3) the gifts and utterances of these prophets, especially of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ

prophecy. The meaning is simply that of "speaking forth," or "proclaiming publicly" to which the connotation of prediction was added sometime in the Middle Ages. Since the completion of Scripture, prophecy has not been a means of new revelation, but is limited to proclaiming what has already been revealed in the written Word.
Macarthur

If God is still giving new revelation in the form of prophecy, that means that there are real prophets in this day and age.

On a side note, this is a huge topic and depending on who engages in this coversation, I believe it to be a blessing to all in understanding one another.

Grace and peace to you.

JLB · Saturday at 7:26 AM

Hidden In Him said:
Is 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 A Cessationist Passage?

View attachment 17572

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).

The Greek used here was βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι' ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον, which reads literally as "now we see through a glass in an enigma, but then face to face." Paul was here making use of Numbers 12, where it states, "Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent, and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, He said, 'Listen to My words. When there is a prophet among you, I the Lord reveal Myself to him in visions. I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of My servant Moses. He is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face clearly, and not in enigmas. He sees the [very] form of the Lord. Why, then, were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:5-8, LXX).

Paul used the same two phrases from this passage in Numbers from the LXX (Greek translation of the Old Testament), which shows this is the passage he was alluding to, and he used these exact same two expressions to make the same comparisons. God spoke "face to face" (πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον) with Moses, but to His prophets He spoke "in enigmas" (ἐν αἰνίγματι). An enigma is what a prophetic dream or vision is like. It is a riddle, which is why some translations read, "For now we see through a glass in obscurity (or in riddles)." Throughout ancient Greek, the word αίνιγμα is almost invariably translated into English as "dark sayings, riddles," hence the translations, "seeing through a glass darkly." In ancient times, glass was not nearly as refined as it is now. You could see through it a little, but the image was often very blurry and "dark," thus it took perception to discern what you were actually looking at through it. This parallels with what it is like to interpret prophetic dreams and visions, and also to what it is like prophesying directly over the lives of others one does not know. The one prophesying doesn't have a clue about the person he is prophesying over, so he is simply uttering what the Spirit of God is leading him to say even though at the moment he is still completely in the dark about it.

View attachment 17574

Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of operating in tongues and prophecy, and point out how prophecy is superior, being the greater gift, because it brings greater edification to the saints. But until we get to Heaven, Biblical prophecy would always be needed because we do not truly see one another face to face yet and know one another's inner most secrets as God does. In conclusion then and in context, the passage has nothing to do with the gifts ceasing or the canon being closed. Quite the opposite, it teaches the need for the gifts until the Lord comes.

Below is a Christian apologist discussing this passage, and the pros and cons of the two most prominent Cessationist arguments. I have not finished it yet, but I have found the parts I have been able to watch quite informative. Comments on either my write up or the video are welcome, but please keep the discussion centered on 1 Corinthians 13 and the surrounding Chapters and verses.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

Amen. Great word.

When that which is perfect comes, Jesus, we will see Him and speak with Him face to face. For now though He continues to pour out His Spirit in these last days.

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
Acts 2:14-18

Arial · Saturday at 10:11 AM

I watched the video about a third of the way through. It is too difficult (for me anyway) to hit things point by point to comment on. I will say this, that in giving the views of cessationism, IMO those views are wrestling with the scripture far more that is necessary when it comes to determining what "the perfect" refers to. Is it the church or the Bible and basing an argument on that. To me, it is much more simple and much less confusing. And I am a cessationist, who began my walk in Charismatic churches, in that I do not believe tongues, prophecy (depending on how one is defining it) and miracles, healings, knowledge (depending on how one is defining it) are the norm for the church today.

And I also think the OP makes the same mistake by focusing on referring the 1 Cor passage back to Numbers 12 and equating the two without establishing the connection or defining "prophecy". Neither thing is necessary to ascertain whether or not those gifts are the norm in the church today. So, I will give my take on 1 Cor 13, doing my best to keep it consistent with the whole counsel of God in my next post, so that the post does not get too long.

I will also point out that those who assert that the "sign" gifts as they are sometimes called are the norm for today, that they should be happening in all our congregations all of the time as a normal part of "church", have given one single interpretation to "prophecy" as being foretelling of future events that are external to the Bible. And "knowledge" as knowledge about the lives of individuals that has not been told but is hidden. At least, that has been my experience of 23 years attending various Charismatic churches, and what we see and hear in the media.

To be cont.

Arial · Saturday at 11:12 AM

Cont. fro post # 5

Right off the bat I will say, that I don't think any part of 1 Cor 13 can correctly be used to support or deny either POV. That is not what it is talking about. We have to consider it for what it is, a culmination of what Paul has written to the Corinthians in the previous chapters; what he will say in the following chapters; why he is saying those things; and that this is a letter, one continuous flow, not a set of isolated doctrines.

Paul is writing this letter to correct some very bad practices that were going on in that church. One of the most blaring was their boasting about the gifts that they had, that were given to the church by the Holy Spirit, and also misusing them. It is likely Paul mentions those three, "prophecies, tongues, and knowledge in vs 8-9, as representative of all the spiritual gifts, and they have a temporary earthly function in this age. Another view is that those three are mentioned because they have a revelatory function that came to an end with the completion of the NT. Both can be true, and I think they are. It has to do with what the apostles needed to lay the foundation (doctrines of the church)and in its early beginnings before the Bible in its completed form and canonized existed. With Christ as the chief cornerstone. That is another rather lengthy discussion so I will leave it to come up with questions or comments.

When Paul says "when the perfect is come" he is referring to the second coming and the consummation of redemption. That is the perfect. God knows us fully now. We can only know in part, our knowledge is always limited and imperfect and we are dependent on the grace of God. But when the perfect comes we will know even as we are known. Then, all the gifts given to the church will cease as we will be complete and they are no longer needed.

Tongues served a purpose in the NT church and as we have all that information contained in the scriptures, they are no longer needed. We can discuss the purpose if any desire to.

We do not need new prophecy as forth telling as we see in the OT because God has given us all the information we need in his word. He tells us the end of the story. I agree with electedbyHim, though I will say it this way: prophecy in the church today is nothing less than peering in crystal balls and reading tea leaves and saying it comes from God.

Knowledge in the church today (relating it to what we see and hear and I have also experienced) has been turned on its head to being knowledge of secret things completely external to the Bible, and mainly about individuals. To say, well, it agrees with the Bible, or simply that it doesn't contradict the Bible, is not enough credibility. What Paul means by knowledge in 1 Cor 13 is knowledge of God.

electedbyHim · Saturday at 11:44 AM

Arial said:
Cont. fro post # 5

Right off the bat I will say, that I don't think any part of 1 Cor 13 can correctly be used to support or deny either POV. That is not what it is talking about. We have to consider it for what it is, a culmination of what Paul has written to the Corinthians in the previous chapters; what he will say in the following chapters; why he is saying those things; and that this is a letter, one continuous flow, not a set of isolated doctrines.

Paul is writing this letter to correct some very bad practices that were going on in that church. One of the most blaring was their boasting about the gifts that they had, that were given to the church by the Holy Spirit, and also misusing them. It is likely Paul mentions those three, "prophecies, tongues, and knowledge in vs 8-9, as representative of all the spiritual gifts, and they have a temporary earthly function in this age. Another view is that those three are mentioned because they have a revelatory function that came to an end with the completion of the NT. Both can be true, and I think they are. It has to do with what the apostles needed to lay the foundation (doctrines of the church)and in its early beginnings before the Bible in its completed form and canonized existed. With Christ as the chief cornerstone. That is another rather lengthy discussion so I will leave it to come up with questions or comments.

When Paul says "when the perfect is come" he is referring to the second coming and the consummation of redemption. That is the perfect. God knows us fully now. We can only know in part, our knowledge is always limited and imperfect and we are dependent on the grace of God. But when the perfect comes we will know even as we are known. Then, all the gifts given to the church will cease as we will be complete and they are no longer needed.

Tongues served a purpose in the NT church and as we have all that information contained in the scriptures, they are no longer needed. We can discuss the purpose if any desire to.

We do not need new prophecy as forth telling as we see in the OT because God has given us all the information we need in his word. He tells us the end of the story. I agree with electedbyHim, though I will say it this way: prophecy in the church today is nothing less than peering in crystal balls and reading tea leaves and saying it comes from God.

Knowledge in the church today (relating it to what we see and hear and I have also experienced) has been turned on its head to being knowledge of secret things completely external to the Bible, and mainly about individuals. To say, well, it agrees with the Bible, or simply that it doesn't contradict the Bible, is not enough credibility. What Paul means by knowledge in 1 Cor 13 is knowledge of God.

Paul is writing this letter to correct some very bad practices that were going on in that church.

I do not think a lot of people understand the historical background of 1 Corinthians.

The Corinthians were bringing their former pagan practices of tongues and mysticism into the church.

They were abusing the gifts and sexual immorality was rampant.

Greek and Roman authors in the centuries before the rise of Christianity often referred to Corinth as the city of fornication and prostitution. The Greeks had coined the term corinthiazesthai (literally, “to live a Corinthian life”) to describe the city’s immorality. Corinth had a dozen or more temples, of which the one dedicated to the goddess of love, Aphrodite, was known in antiquity for its immorality. Strabo writes about Corinth before the Romans destroyed it in 146 B.C. and notes the presence of a thousand prostitutes at the temple of Aphrodite,5 although the accuracy of this statement has been questioned by many scholars.6 We surmise that the city of Corinth with its two harbors accommodated a crowd of seafarers, merchants, and soldiers, and was hardly a place known for creditable morals. Paul’s explicit exhortations to flee sexual immorality (5:1; 6:9, 15–20; 10:8) leave the distinct impression that promiscuity was not uncommon in that city.

5 Strabo Geography 8.6.20.
6 Among others see H. D. Saffrey, “Aphrodite a Corinthe: Réflexions sur Une Idée Reçue,” RB 92 (1985): 359–74.
Simon J. Kistemaker and William Hendriksen, Exposition of the First Epistle to the Corinthians, vol. 18, New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1953–2001), 5.

Arial · Saturday at 1:15 PM

electedbyHim said:
I do not think a lot of people understand the historical background of 1 Corinthians.

The Corinthians were bringing their former pagan practices of tongues and mysticism into the church.

They were abusing the gifts and sexual immorality was rampant.

Greek and Roman authors in the centuries before the rise of Christianity often referred to Corinth as the city of fornication and prostitution. The Greeks had coined the term corinthiazesthai (literally, “to live a Corinthian life”) to describe the city’s immorality. Corinth had a dozen or more temples, of which the one dedicated to the goddess of love, Aphrodite, was known in antiquity for its immorality. Strabo writes about Corinth before the Romans destroyed it in 146 B.C. and notes the presence of a thousand prostitutes at the temple of Aphrodite,5 although the accuracy of this statement has been questioned by many scholars.6 We surmise that the city of Corinth with its two harbors accommodated a crowd of seafarers, merchants, and soldiers, and was hardly a place known for creditable morals. Paul’s explicit exhortations to flee sexual immorality (5:1; 6:9, 15–20; 10:8) leave the distinct impression that promiscuity was not uncommon in that city.

5 Strabo Geography 8.6.20.
6 Among others see H. D. Saffrey, “Aphrodite a Corinthe: Réflexions sur Une Idée Reçue,” RB 92 (1985): 359–74.
Simon J. Kistemaker and William Hendriksen, Exposition of the First Epistle to the Corinthians, vol. 18, New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1953–2001), 5.

The use of tongues in the church at Corinth was being abused in much the same way as it is in much of the modern church. My experience with the Charismatic churches would place it at "all" but though there were many different churches I attended, it cannot be used to assert "all" without exception. So I hope no one gets upset, takes offense, or thinks I meant it as "all without exception". I would have no way of knowing that.

But in the histories and commentaries I read, the practice of "tongues" in pagan circles at the time Cor was written, was what they copied (among other things.) For the pagans it was gibberish, not known languages, and was designed to stir emotion to levels of mindlessness. And I suppose, to call upon gods. It is also practiced in Satan worship, as I understand it. Hidden In Him can correct me if I am mistaken about that.

If that is the case, then it shows an inherent danger in the practice in our churches, in the way in which it is sometimes done. I gather from 1 Cor in its discussion of the misuse of tongues, that it was to exhibit a greater gifting, a greater spirituality and favor with God, than others had. A lord it over you type of thing.

electedbyHim · Saturday at 2:02 PM

Arial said:
The use of tongues in the church at Corinth was being abused in much the same way as it is in much of the modern church. My experience with the Charismatic churches would place it at "all" but though there were many different churches I attended, it cannot be used to assert "all" without exception. So I hope no one gets upset, takes offense, or thinks I meant it as "all without exception". I would have no way of knowing that.

But in the histories and commentaries I read, the practice of "tongues" in pagan circles at the time Cor was written, was what they copied (among other things.) For the pagans it was gibberish, not known languages, and was designed to stir emotion to levels of mindlessness. And I suppose, to call upon gods. It is also practiced in Satan worship, as I understand it. Hidden In Him can correct me if I am mistaken about that.

If that is the case, then it shows an inherent danger in the practice in our churches, in the way in which it is sometimes done. I gather from 1 Cor in its discussion of the misuse of tongues, that it was to exhibit a greater gifting, a greater spirituality and favor with God, than others had. A lord it over you type of thing.

I also have many years experience in these Pentecostal/charismatic churches. Some were wildly more extreme than others.

Never once will I label them all the same, because they are not.

So I hope no one gets upset, takes offense, or thinks I meant it as "all without exception". I would have no way of knowing that.

Pretty certain no one will get upset, it is not like you are bashing or hating on anyone.

But in the histories and commentaries I read, the practice of "tongues" in pagan circles at the time Cor was written, was what they copied (among other things.)

Book surveys, commentaries and theological journals give great insight to what was going on when Paul penned the letter. The many documents that I have read, agree with you statement. Many of the Corinthians were saved out of these pagan cultures and brought thier practice into their assemblies, I have read.

You are correct on saying that the pagan tongues was just gibberish, even ecstatic gibberish compared to a real known language.

Many believe that the "perfect" in verse 10 is the completeion of the Bible. I tend to agree with this, although there is a good argument for the maturity of the church that I have read.

There are 3 major views:

Christ’s Second Coming: This view suggests that “that which is perfect” refers to the return of Jesus Christ. According to this interpretation, the spiritual gifts mentioned in the passage will cease when Christ returns. This aligns with the idea that the gifts were necessary during the early stages of the church but will no longer be needed when Christ’s kingdom is fully established.

Completion of the Bible: Another interpretation is that “that which is perfect” refers to the completion of the Bible. This view argues that once the New Testament was completed, the need for the spiritual gifts mentioned in the passage would diminish. The idea is that the written word would provide the necessary guidance and revelation that the gifts provided in the early church.

Maturity of the Church: Some interpret “that which is perfect” as the maturity of the church. This perspective suggests that the gifts were temporary aids to help the church grow and mature, and once the church reached a state of maturity, the need for these gifts would diminish. This view draws parallels to Ephesians 4:13, where the church is described as moving toward a state of unity and maturity.

Macarthur says it is the eternal state, which also makes sense.

the perfect is the eternal state

By process of elimination, the only possibility for the perfect is the eternal, heavenly state of believers. Paul is saying that spiritual gifts are only for time, but that love will last for all eternity. The point is simple, not obscure.

The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the perfect and allows for the continuation of knowledge and prophecy during the church age, the Tribulation, and the Kingdom. It fits the context of Paul’s emphasis on the permanence of love. It also fits his mention of our then seeing “face to face,” which will come about only with our glorification, when we will be illumined by the very glory of God Himself (Rev. 21:23). Finally, only in heaven will we “know fully just as [we] also have been fully known” (1 Cor. 13:12).

The eternal state begins for Old Testament believers at the first resurrection, when they will be raised to be with Him forever (Dan. 12:2). For Christians the eternal state begins either at death, when they go to be with the Lord, or at the rapture, when the Lord takes His own to be with Himself. For Tribulation and Kingdom saints it will occur at death or glorification.

Just some thoughts.

Follower Of Christ · Saturday at 3:56 PM

Personally, I have an aversion to using labels like cessationism etc. I stay away from using them for the simple purpose that certain people hunger for knowledge and by default want to put immediately labels and boundaries on a systematic approach to understanding certain phenomena. Well this approach works well for understanding physical phenomena but fails in understanding God and His Ways.

Wisdom is different from knowledge. Godly wisdom is different from knowing about God and His Ways. The core of one's brain and way of thinking has to fundamentally transform to have God's wisdom. If the Holy Spirit indwells in you, the light shines within you. All you do is because of God's love, through God's love and for God's love.

It's because of God's love that we are spiritually alive. If we are spiritually alive we attain to a better wisdom about God over time. From that wisdom come the prophecies too albeit sometimes they seem like riddles even to the person speaking the prophecy.

I leave you with Revelation 3:1-6 "
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

jasonc · Saturday at 4:10 PM

A major problem is that if the office of a prophet etc is still around then so it the apostles .

Most charismatic churches reject the idea of a modern apostle.

Arial · Saturday at 4:43 PM

electedbyHim said:
Many believe that the "perfect" in verse 10 is the completeion of the Bible. I tend to agree with this, although there is a good argument for the maturity of the church that I have read.

I think Paul meant the second coming of Christ and the consummation by "when the perfect is come". And I am not the Lone Ranger in that interpretation. Here is why. That is the only perfected, perfect. And that is when, and only when, we will know even as we are known by him.

But I do not think that means that when he referred to tongues, prophecy, knowledge that those offices or gifts will be active as the norm until the end. Not according to the definitions given to them by the Charismatic community and how they are used. Tongues in the Bible were actual languages and there is a reason they were needed. Many different languages were spoken among the people present at Pentecost and where the gospel was being spread. In that sense, it is still ongoing. If someone speaks something in a gathering in there native language and it is not the common language, it will need to be interpreted. The gospel must reach the four corners of the earth in all languages. But usually people of in church gatherings have a common language. Everytime we say sola fide, or sola scriptura, or any of the other solas, we are speaking in tongues if we are in the company of English speakers etc.

Hidden In Him · Saturday at 4:53 PM

electedbyHim said:
prophecy. The meaning is simply that of "speaking forth," or "proclaiming publicly" to which the connotation of prediction was added sometime in the Middle Ages. Since the completion of Scripture, prophecy has not been a means of new revelation, but is limited to proclaiming what has already been revealed in the written Word.
Macarthur

Hi Elected, and thanks for responding.

I regard MacArthur as a fairly solid interpreter in many respects, but this definition of "prophecy" is IMO an attempt at redefining the word to deliberately take any supernatural reference out of it, based on a doctrinal bias. The claim that the term only took on a predictive meaning in the middle ages is not to be taken seriously IMO.

The normal understanding of the term is to be preferred, so I would simply point to something like the Wiki definition:

In religion, mythology, and fiction, a prophecy is a message that has been communicated to a person (typically called a prophet) by a supernatural entity. Prophecies are a feature of many cultures and belief systems and usually contain divine will or law, or preternatural knowledge, for example of future events. They can be revealed to the prophet in various ways depending on the religion and the story, such as visions, or direct interaction with divine beings in physical form.

Prophecy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hidden In Him · Saturday at 5:00 PM

Arial said:
And I also think the OP makes the same mistake by focusing on referring the 1 Cor passage back to Numbers 12 and equating the two without establishing the connection or defining "prophecy".

Why would you say that a connection has not been made when all the same Greek vocabulary is used in both passages and both passages in context are talking about the gift of prophecy?

Hidden In Him · Saturday at 5:04 PM

Arial said:
I will also point out that those who assert that the "sign" gifts as they are sometimes called are the norm for today, that they should be happening in all our congregations all of the time as a normal part of "church", have given one single interpretation to "prophecy" as being forth telling of future events that are external to the Bible.

Again, I would repeat here Arial that the redefinition of the term is a deliberate attempt by Cessationists to take the supernatural out of the term, so as to then claim that the gifts are no longer in operation today.

I regard that as interpretation bias. But if you like, list for me the passages (both OT and NT) where the word prophecy is used in a manner that has nothing to do with the predictive and we can discuss it.

Hidden In Him · Saturday at 5:08 PM

electedbyHim said:
The Corinthians were bringing their former pagan practices of tongues and mysticism into the church.

I acknowledge the possibility of this in a recent study I have Featured right now on 1 Peter 4:7-11. But as I also state, the command in 1 Thessalonians was nevertheless not to forbid prophesying, but to simply keep the good and discard the bad.

Hidden In Him · Saturday at 5:10 PM

Arial said:
The use of tongues in the church at Corinth was being abused in much the same way as it is in much of the modern church. My experience with the Charismatic churches would place it at "all" but though there were many different churches I attended, it cannot be used to assert "all" without exception. So I hope no one gets upset, takes offense, or thinks I meant it as "all without exception". I would have no way of knowing that.

Again Arial, I deal with this in the above mentioned study (see under "Dealing With Complications")

Thread 'Charismatic Bible Studies - 1 Peter 4:7-11'

Jan 3, 2025

Speaking As The Oracles Of God, The Responsibility Of Every Believer

Were the works of the Old Testament prophets just painting a picture from the past that we are no longer supposed to walk in, or should the great prophetic gifts of old still be in operation today? And is prophecy exclusively the domain of those who walk in the office of prophet, or was it a gift the entire church was called to walk in? Joel 2:28 suggests that the entire end-time church will continue to operate in them, and that from youngest to oldest they will all move in dreams, visions and...

electedbyHim · Saturday at 5:11 PM

Hidden In Him said:
Hi Elected, and thanks for responding.

I regard MacArthur as a fairly solid interpreter in many respects, but this definition of "prophecy" is IMO an attempt at redefining the word to deliberately take any supernatural reference out of it, based on a doctrinal bias. The claim that the term only took on a predictive meaning in the middle ages is not to be taken seriously IMO.

The normal understanding of the term is to be preferred, so I would simply point to something like the Wiki definition:

In religion, mythology, and fiction, a prophecy is a message that has been communicated to a person (typically called a prophet) by a supernatural entity. Prophecies are a feature of many cultures and belief systems and usually contain divine will or law, or preternatural knowledge, for example of future events. They can be revealed to the prophet in various ways depending on the religion and the story, such as visions, or direct interaction with divine beings in physical form.

Prophecy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Your understanding, per wikipedia, would sugget there are real Prophets today.

From Gotquestions.
The spiritual gift of prophecy is listed among the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:10 and Romans 12:6. The Greek word translated “prophesying” or “prophecy” in both passages properly means to “speak forth” or declare the divine will, to interpret the purposes of God, or to make known in any way the truth of God which is designed to influence people. Many people misunderstand the gift of prophecy to be the ability to predict the future. While knowing something about the future may sometimes have been an aspect of the gift of prophecy, it was primarily a gift of proclamation (“forth-telling”), not prediction (“fore-telling”).

A pastor/preacher who declares the Bible can be considered a “prophesier” in that he is speaking forth the counsel of God. With the completion of the New Testament canon, prophesying changed from declaring new revelation to declaring the completed revelation God has already given. Jude 3 speaks of “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (emphasis added). In other words, the faith to which we hold has been settled forever, and it does not need the addition or refinement that comes from extra-biblical revelations.

Also, note the transition from prophet to teacher in 2 Peter 2:1: “There were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you” (emphasis added). Peter indicates that the Old Testament age had prophets, whereas the church will have teachers. The spiritual gift of prophecy, in the sense of receiving new revelations from God to be proclaimed to others, ceased with the completion of the Bible. During the time that prophecy was a revelatory gift, it was to be used for the edification, exhortation, and comfort of men (1 Corinthians 14:3). The modern gift of prophecy, which is really more akin to teaching, still declares the truth of God. What has changed is that the truth of God today has already been fully revealed in His Word, while, in the early church, it had not yet been fully revealed.

Christians are to be very wary of those who claim to have a “new” message from God. It is one thing to say, “I had an interesting dream last night.” However, it is quite another matter to say, “God gave me a dream last night, and you must obey it.” No utterance of man should be considered equal to or above the written Word. We must hold to the Word that God has already given and commit ourselves to sola scriptura—Scripture alone.

Hidden In Him · Saturday at 5:17 PM

electedbyHim said:
Pretty certain no one will get upset, it is not like you are bashing or hating on anyone.

Arial said:
So I hope no one gets upset, takes offense, or thinks I meant it as "all without exception". I would have no way of knowing that.

I appreciate that from both of you. That's why I invited you both to this thread, knowing you take an opposing view. I admit myself that the modern use of the gifts has been highly plagiarized and falsified in some circles, and should rightly be called out. I think it brings shame to the name of Christ as well, as well as to the gifts, and is in some cases downright dangerous. That's why I tend to applaud healthy discussion and even healthy criticism. At the same time, though, I fully believe in the real gifts still being for today. I have dealt with so many dreams that can be explained in no other way than that they HAVE to be supernatural. The dreamers speak of things only God would know, and this has happens literally dozens of times. Now some could still say the source is demonic, and I also regard it as healthy to always keep a healthy skepticism. But too many times the dreams serve to protect the child of God from harm, so I have to believe the source cannot be demonic. The end result is that the works of the enemy are destroyed rather than prospered.

Hidden In Him · Saturday at 5:21 PM

electedbyHim said:
Your understanding, per wikipedia, would sugget there are real Prophets today.

From Gotquestions.
The spiritual gift of prophecy is listed among the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:10 and Romans 12:6. The Greek word translated “prophesying” or “prophecy” in both passages properly means to “speak forth” or declare the divine will, to interpret the purposes of God, or to make known in any way the truth of God which is designed to influence people. Many people misunderstand the gift of prophecy to be the ability to predict the future. While knowing something about the future may sometimes have been an aspect of the gift of prophecy, it was primarily a gift of proclamation (“forth-telling”), not prediction (“fore-telling”).

A pastor/preacher who declares the Bible can be considered a “prophesier” in that he is speaking forth the counsel of God. With the completion of the New Testament canon, prophesying changed from declaring new revelation to declaring the completed revelation God has already given. Jude 3 speaks of “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (emphasis added). In other words, the faith to which we hold has been settled forever, and it does not need the addition or refinement that comes from extra-biblical revelations.

Also, note the transition from prophet to teacher in 2 Peter 2:1: “There were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you” (emphasis added). Peter indicates that the Old Testament age had prophets, whereas the church will have teachers. The spiritual gift of prophecy, in the sense of receiving new revelations from God to be proclaimed to others, ceased with the completion of the Bible. During the time that prophecy was a revelatory gift, it was to be used for the edification, exhortation, and comfort of men (1 Corinthians 14:3). The modern gift of prophecy, which is really more akin to teaching, still declares the truth of God. What has changed is that the truth of God today has already been fully revealed in His Word, while, in the early church, it had not yet been fully revealed.

Christians are to be very wary of those who claim to have a “new” message from God. It is one thing to say, “I had an interesting dream last night.” However, it is quite another matter to say, “God gave me a dream last night, and you must obey it.” No utterance of man should be considered equal to or above the written Word. We must hold to the Word that God has already given and commit ourselves to sola scriptura—Scripture alone.

LoL.

Elected, GotQuestions here is interpreting the word "prophecy" through the same doctrinal bias MacArthur is. Almost the same exact wording is used throughout. I am telling you the word has always had to do with the predictive utterances of God.

I would make the same offer as with Arial. If you would like, list for me the passages (both OT and NT) where the word prophecy is used in a manner that has nothing to do with the predictive and we can discuss it. I will list the uses of the word where the term had a predictive meaning, and we can then compare the two sample groups and see which sense is more prevalent in the NT and OT.

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