A Cessationist Passage?

[hawkman]

Why, I have often wondered, is such an emphasis put on knowing the future?

Supernatural things from God are not always about the future and can be about the present but it is the present far away from you . Case in point .

A few years ago I was talking with a cousin and he told me about his son being in the army fighting in the middle east .
His son told what job he had , riding in a Humvee manning a 50cal machine gun . It was suggested by his dad that the son needed a lower profile job . So a few months later I was sound asleep one night and I was awakened by these words, " Pray for J***" . It took me a little bit to come to and understand what was going on and I remembered , oh yeah J*** is fighting over in the middle east , so I said a prayer for him and went back to sleep .
Not even thinking again about the prayer one day about two months later I hear about J*** , the Humvee he and his squad was riding in took a direct hit from and roadside IED . Some of his fellow soldiers were killed and J*** had suffered massive head trauma . J*** did survive and has raised a family , praise God !

 

[Hidden In Him]

I have no idea where or why you made the leap from what I said to concluding that I was saying the Continuist would not survive without prophecy. This has been my gripe, ( since you mentioned yours with cessationist) with those who disagree with various aspects of Reformed theology. It is as though they put words in the mouths of the Reformed that were never spoken, inferred, or implied. Straw man arguments.

It's because you made the following statements.

Why, I have often wondered, is such an emphasis put on knowing the future? Well, it is human nature. In many ways we are traveling blind, and if we knew what lay ahead, then we could avoid calamity and catastrophe. But for the believer, even though we still cannot see what has not yet come to pass, we are traveling beneath the shadow of his wings. And here comes the number one issue that fallen mankind fails in, and is at the very center of our covenant relationship with God---the very definition of faith----trusting in God to always do what he says he will do, as to our future. And this we have always available to us, in his word.

This paragraph suggests we should trust in the word of God only. That is your position, correct? If so, my response was that I did so for about 35 years and had no problems with it, but the Christianity I live now is even closer to Him, and did not arise from any sense of lack or need, but of simply abiding in Him to a greater extent.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The fact that there were a few instances in the Bible where God gave dreams to one person and the interpretation to another, they were all playing a purpose in the recorded history of redemption. It does not mean that such a thing is common.

Forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth here, but this seems like you are arguing that prophetic dreams had more to with "playing a purpose in the history of redemption" rather than being personal dreams having to do with individuals lives, is that correct?

If so, this a common Cessationist argument, but I don't think it holds water. I posted this to another Cessationist yesterday:

I think also sometimes people want immediate clear direction from God as to what they should do in one situation or another, and they think that prophets would enable them to do that. But we never see prophets doing that kind of thing in the Old Testament. Their message is always more general, unless they're confronting a specific sin by a specific king"say, Nathan with David. But other than that, we don't see prophets speaking to the individual concerns of people at large.

Greetings Roger, and blessings in Christ. I'd have to disagree with your contention here, as Elijah was a prophet and prophesied over the life of the widow of Zeraphath in 1 Kings 17. This was not merely a prophecy related to Israel but also to her personal life and that of her son, whom she feared was about to die of starvation:

8 Then the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 9 “Arise, go to Zarephath, which belongs to Sidon, and dwell there. See, I have commanded a widow there to provide for you.” 10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, indeed a widow was there gathering sticks. And he called to her and said, “Please bring me a little water in a cup, that I may drink.” 11 And as she was going to get it, he called to her and said, “Please bring me a morsel of bread in your hand.”

12 So she said, “As the Lord your God lives, I do not have bread, only a handful of flour in a bin, and a little oil in a jar; and see, I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it, and die.” 13 And Elijah said to her, “Do not fear; go and do as you have said, but make me a small cake from it first, and bring it to me; and afterward make some for yourself and your son. 14 For thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘The bin of flour shall not be used up, nor shall the jar of oil run dry, until the day the Lord sends rain on the earth.’ ”

15 So she went away and did according to the word of Elijah; and she and he and her household ate for many days. 16 The bin of flour was not used up, nor did the jar of oil run dry, according to the word of the Lord which He spoke by Elijah.

There are also the personal words which Joseph spoke to the Pharaoh's servants in Genesis 40.

1 It came to pass after these things that the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt offended their lord, the king of Egypt. 2 And Pharaoh was angry with his two officers, the chief butler and the chief baker. 3 So he put them in custody in the house of the captain of the guard, in the prison, the place where Joseph was confined. 4 And the captain of the guard charged Joseph with them, and he served them; so they were in custody for a while. 5 Then the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, who were confined in the prison, had a dream, both of them, each man’s dream in one night and each man’s dream with its own interpretation. 6And Joseph came in to them in the morning and looked at them, and saw that they were sad. 7 So he asked Pharaoh’s officers who were with him in the custody of his lord’s house, saying, “Why do you look so sad today?” 8 And they said to him, “We each have had a dream, and there is no interpreter of it.” So Joseph said to them, “Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell them to me, please.” 9 Then the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, “Behold, in my dream a vine was before me, 10 and in the vine were three branches; it was as though it budded, its blossoms shot forth, and its clusters brought forth ripe grapes. 11 Then Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand; and I took the grapes and pressed them into Pharaoh’s cup, and placed the cup in Pharaoh’s hand.” 12 And Joseph said to him, “This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days. 13 Now within three days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your place, and you will put Pharaoh’s cup in his hand according to the former manner, when you were his butler. 14 But remember me when it is well with you, and please show kindness to me; make mention of me to Pharaoh, and get me out of this house. 15 For indeed I was stolen away from the land of the Hebrews; and also I have done nothing here that they should put me into the dungeon.”

16 When the chief baker saw that the interpretation was good, he said to Joseph, “I also was in my dream, and there were three white baskets on my head. 17 In the uppermost basket were all kinds of baked goods for Pharaoh, and the birds ate them out of the basket on my head.” 18 So Joseph answered and said, “This is the interpretation of it: The three baskets are three days. 19 Within three days Pharaoh will lift off your head from you and hang you on a tree; and the birds will eat your flesh from you.” 20 Now it came to pass on the third day, which was Pharaoh’s birthday, that he made a feast for all his servants; and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants. 21 Then he restored the chief butler to his butlership again, and he placed the cup in Pharaoh’s hand. 22 But he hanged the chief baker, as Joseph had interpreted to them. 23 Yet the chief butler did not remember Joseph, but forgot him. (Genesis 40:1-22)

 

[Arial]

It's because you made the following statements.


This paragraph suggests we should trust in the word of God only. That is your position, correct? If so, my response was that I did so for about 35 years and had no problems with it, but the Christianity I live now is even closer to Him, and did not arise from any sense of lack or need, but of simply abiding in Him to a greater extent.

Charismatics and non Charismatics in essence speak a different language. And I am not saying what I say in the dark. I have been there, done that. If we trust in something besides the authority of the word of God, we are trusting in something else. If we need new revelations and our fortunes told, we are treating his word like it is not sufficient. And don't forget, the heart of a man is deceitful above all else.

But I have too much antipathy towards what I see as grossly unscriptural and untrustworthy, and unsound doctrine, and the impossibility of ever having a meeting of the minds on the subject, to stay in this conversation, given the direction it has taken from the actual stated intent and request of the OP.

So I shall take a step back. Peace and blessings to you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I simply ask him to make my paths straight before me 'cause according to his word it is he who can do that. To direct my footsteps and lead me in paths of righteousness for his namesake, and since he said he would do that, I believe he will. He will complete the work in me that he began.

And I will say too, that it is very important how we build on the foundation that the apostles laid. Everything built on that foundation will survive. Everything built on a different foundation will be burned up though we ourselves will be saved.

Absolutely. On this much we absolutely agree.

Well, we are going into a realm here that is very difficult for me to maintain non hostile seeming responses. I say they seem hostile, because there is no way they cannot, whether there is hostility in me or not. And there is, but towards the teaching not the individuals who follow the teaching. I have a sister immersed in it. So I am going to back out of that aspect of the conversation.

Well I can certainly understand some getting off-track if they are not firmly founded in the word of God as you say, so maybe there could be a meeting of the minds there some day. As I said, I believe in the importance of both; the written word AND the prophetic word. I believe we are increasingly entering the time when Joel 2:28 is beginning to be fulfilled, which is the reason I stress both. I believe it is the Lord's will that we increasingly understand these things going forward.

So I will just say, your "proof" is purely experiential---based on experiences---and experiences are subjective. How do you know for instance that you are operating according to specific directives that the Lord is giving you?

When you see the Lord confirming things to you over and over again, your faith increases until you just don't have doubts anymore about the efficacy of Spirit-filled, Spirit-breathed dreams and visions. The proof is in the fruit of it, and what the results are. I would again refer you to a thread I referenced earlier in Post #17 where I mention a few things, under "We Bare A Responsibility," but there's a lot I never share with the public.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree with this. From past expereince it can get ugly, evn know it was not my motivation. Just pointing out basic truths, has caused hostility and division.

I used to be that way and get hostile myself. Not so much anymore, and I think that can just be chalked up to developing a bit more spiritual maturity. Like I was saying, I think the membership at CFN now is exceptionally good as well, and it sets the stage for better discussion. All the Cessationists I've discussed things with recently have been very polite and respectful, and that makes things enjoyable. I actually enjoy good polite discussion and even debate. But we had a few here in the past who would have ruined it for me (Iconoclast comes to mind here, but he's no longer a member now).

It seems in the Pentecostal/charismatic circles, everyone is seeking and experience.

Many have claimed that their emotions and feelings are in fact the Holy Spirit moving and guiding them.

This is certainly possible.

@Hidden In Him, what is your definition of a Prophet.

Not sure if I could come up with a perfected definition without refining it over time, but my initial response would be someone who speaks by divine utterance what the Spirit of God speaks to him directly, and contains supernatural revelation that only God would know, whether it be predictive or personal information.

 

[electedbyHim]

I used to be that way and get hostile myself. Not so much anymore, and I think that can just be chalked up to developing a bit more spiritual maturity. Like I was saying, I think the membership at CFN now is exceptionally good as well, and it sets the stage for better discussion. All the Cessationists I've discussed things with recently have been very polite and respectful, and that makes things enjoyable. I actually enjoy good polite discussion and even debate. But he had a few here in the past who would have ruined it for me (Iconoclast comes to mind here, but he's no longer a member now).


This is certainly possible.


Not sure if I could come up with a perfected definition without refining it over time, but my initial response would be someone who speaks by divine utterance what the Spirit of God speaks to him directly, and contains supernatural revelation that usually only God would know, whether it be predictive or personal information.

Thank you for this.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Charismatics and non Charismatics in essence speak a different language. And I am not saying what I say in the dark. I have been there, done that. If we trust in something besides the authority of the word of God, we are trusting in something else. If we need new revelations and our fortunes told, we are treating his word like it is not sufficient.

We just disagree is all. I don't see the two as necessarily being antithetical to one another. I believe the Spirit of God can speak things today that are in agreement with His word just as I think the Spirit spoke things during New Testament times that were in agreement with Old Testament references. That goes for utterances and dreams that relate to our personal lives as well. He proved that He could speak directly to the concerns of people's personal lives in scripture, so I just don't see why He cannot continue to do so today.

But I have too much antipathy towards what I see as grossly unscriptural and untrustworthy, and unsound doctrine, and the impossibility of ever having a meeting of the minds on the subject, to stay in this conversation, given the direction it has taken from the actual stated intent and request of the OP.

So I shall take a step back. Peace and blessings to you.

I understand, and blessings and peace to you as well. I think you are a good addition here, and I like your frankness and your honesty. I'm doing the same with you, and that's how true fellowship starts is speaking the truth in love to one another.

Blessings,
- H

 

[Arial]

He proved that He could speak directly to the concerns of people's personal lives in scripture, so I just don't see why He cannot continue to do so today.

The question or controversy is not whether he can and does speak directly to the concerns of people's personal lives. That is not even in question. The controversy is in how he does this.

I am going to say the following, not as a criticism, but just to point something out that interferes in a discussion on this topic and causes them to become heated.

Even in this thread the postings by Charismatics inevitably move into supporting their beliefs by presenting experiences. That reduces the thread to the personal level and moves it out of the theological realm. There is no way to respond using apologetics or theology or even scripture because the two parties do not interpret the same scriptures in the same way. Any attempt at refuting the claim by theological means will only be met with experiences as evidence.

So, that having been said, I will move my support of my position into the theology and apologetic boards. I did post a video "What is Reformed Theology". It is probably worth a view just so members who are in disagreement with that theology know where the one posting from that view is coming from. Most opposed to RT will not bother doing so, and I understand. I won't watch posts on Dispensational discussions of Revelation either. But at the same time, I once was a dispensationalist, once was an Armennianist, once was a Charismatic. With one person arguing against what they have never looked into---well that wrecks something actually being a debate. (And I am generalizing here, not personalizing.) I am just saying, the more we know about what we are talking about, the better off we are. There is nothing to be afraid of.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Even in this thread the postings by Charismatics inevitably move into supporting their beliefs by presenting experiences. That reduces the thread to the personal level and moves it out of the theological realm. There is no way to respond using apologetics or theology or even scripture because the two parties do not interpret the same scriptures in the same way. Any attempt at refuting the claim by theological means will only be met with experiences as evidence.

Arial, that is not so. This thread was created to discuss a specific passage of scripture in 1 Corinthians 13 and the exegesis involved in it. I also redirected the discussion back to scripture when Elected was asking about who I thought might be a prophet today. I have no big problems with any of it, but I don't see your contention here as being true. The intention was to discuss the scriptures involved, as I even attempted to redirect you back to it once. It's just that when asked to reply to questions or statements that point away from scripture, I assume I am free to respond in kind.

Anyway, none of it is a big deal. Just thought I would invite a discussion on it is all. There is much more that I could say about 1 Corinthians 13 and the surrounding context, but we never actually got into a debate on it.

Blessings,
- H

 

[Rodger]

Forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth here, but this seems like you are arguing that prophetic dreams had more to with "playing a purpose in the history of redemption" rather than being personal dreams having to do with individuals lives, is that correct?

If so, this a common Cessationist argument, but I don't think it holds water. I posted this to another Cessationist yesterday:


Greetings Roger, and blessings in Christ. I'd have to disagree with your contention here, as Elijah was a prophet and prophesied over the life of the widow of Zeraphath in 1 Kings 17. This was not merely a prophecy related to Israel but also to her personal life and that of her son, whom she feared was about to die of starvation:

8 Then the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 9 “Arise, go to Zarephath, which belongs to Sidon, and dwell there. See, I have commanded a widow there to provide for you.” 10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, indeed a widow was there gathering sticks. And he called to her and said, “Please bring me a little water in a cup, that I may drink.” 11 And as she was going to get it, he called to her and said, “Please bring me a morsel of bread in your hand.”

12 So she said, “As the Lord your God lives, I do not have bread, only a handful of flour in a bin, and a little oil in a jar; and see, I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it, and die.” 13 And Elijah said to her, “Do not fear; go and do as you have said, but make me a small cake from it first, and bring it to me; and afterward make some for yourself and your son. 14 For thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘The bin of flour shall not be used up, nor shall the jar of oil run dry, until the day the Lord sends rain on the earth.’ ”

15 So she went away and did according to the word of Elijah; and she and he and her household ate for many days. 16 The bin of flour was not used up, nor did the jar of oil run dry, according to the word of the Lord which He spoke by Elijah.

There are also the personal words which Joseph spoke to the Pharaoh's servants in Genesis 40.

1 It came to pass after these things that the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt offended their lord, the king of Egypt. 2 And Pharaoh was angry with his two officers, the chief butler and the chief baker. 3 So he put them in custody in the house of the captain of the guard, in the prison, the place where Joseph was confined. 4 And the captain of the guard charged Joseph with them, and he served them; so they were in custody for a while. 5 Then the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, who were confined in the prison, had a dream, both of them, each man’s dream in one night and each man’s dream with its own interpretation. 6And Joseph came in to them in the morning and looked at them, and saw that they were sad. 7 So he asked Pharaoh’s officers who were with him in the custody of his lord’s house, saying, “Why do you look so sad today?” 8 And they said to him, “We each have had a dream, and there is no interpreter of it.” So Joseph said to them, “Do not interpretations belong to God? Tell them to me, please.” 9 Then the chief butler told his dream to Joseph, and said to him, “Behold, in my dream a vine was before me, 10 and in the vine were three branches; it was as though it budded, its blossoms shot forth, and its clusters brought forth ripe grapes. 11 Then Pharaoh’s cup was in my hand; and I took the grapes and pressed them into Pharaoh’s cup, and placed the cup in Pharaoh’s hand.” 12 And Joseph said to him, “This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days. 13 Now within three days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your place, and you will put Pharaoh’s cup in his hand according to the former manner, when you were his butler. 14 But remember me when it is well with you, and please show kindness to me; make mention of me to Pharaoh, and get me out of this house. 15 For indeed I was stolen away from the land of the Hebrews; and also I have done nothing here that they should put me into the dungeon.”

16 When the chief baker saw that the interpretation was good, he said to Joseph, “I also was in my dream, and there were three white baskets on my head. 17 In the uppermost basket were all kinds of baked goods for Pharaoh, and the birds ate them out of the basket on my head.” 18 So Joseph answered and said, “This is the interpretation of it: The three baskets are three days. 19 Within three days Pharaoh will lift off your head from you and hang you on a tree; and the birds will eat your flesh from you.” 20 Now it came to pass on the third day, which was Pharaoh’s birthday, that he made a feast for all his servants; and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants. 21 Then he restored the chief butler to his butlership again, and he placed the cup in Pharaoh’s hand. 22 But he hanged the chief baker, as Joseph had interpreted to them. 23 Yet the chief butler did not remember Joseph, but forgot him. (Genesis 40:1-22)

I am a "Cessationist" in that God has said all that He wanted to say and the "sign gifts" given to the apostles have ended with the death of the last apostle.

An Apostle had to have seen Jesus personally to be an Apostle and that alone rules out the office of an Apostle today.

We have the completed Word of God in the Bible so there is no need for a "Profet" today.

We tend to accept the Pentecostal teaching of "God spoke to me and said" as a word of knowledge or prophecy. That is simply not true IMHO.

Following the pronouncement at the Transfiguration that Jesus was His beloved Son, God said, “Listen to Him!” Listening to Jesus is important because it is He through whom God speaks to the world today through His written Word.....the Bible.

 

[Rodger]

Arial, that is not so. This thread was created to discuss a specific passage of scripture in 1 Corinthians 13 and the exegesis involved in it. I also redirected the discussion back to scripture when Elected was asking about who I thought might be a prophet today. I have no big problems with any of it, but I don't see your contention here as being true. The intention was to discuss the scriptures involved, as I even attempted to redirect you back to it once. It's just that when asked to reply to questions our statements that point away from scripture, I assume I am free to respond in kind.

Anyway, none of it is a big deal. Just thought I would invite a discussion on it is all. There is much more that I could say about 1 Corinthians 13 and the surrounding context, but we never actually got into a debate on it.

Blessings,
- H

Agreed.

I always thought that was what a forum was about.

 

[Rodger]

The question or controversy is not whether he can and does speak directly to the concerns of people's personal lives. That is not even in question. The controversy is in how he does this.

I am going to say the following, not as a criticism, but just to point something out that interferes in a discussion on this topic and causes them to become heated.

Even in this thread the postings by Charismatics inevitably move into supporting their beliefs by presenting experiences. That reduces the thread to the personal level and moves it out of the theological realm. There is no way to respond using apologetics or theology or even scripture because the two parties do not interpret the same scriptures in the same way. Any attempt at refuting the claim by theological means will only be met with experiences as evidence.

So, that having been said, I will move my support of my position into the theology and apologetic boards. I did post a video "What is Reformed Theology". It is probably worth a view just so members who are in disagreement with that theology know where the one posting from that view is coming from. Most opposed to RT will not bother doing so, and I understand. I won't watch posts on Dispensational discussions of Revelation either. But at the same time, I once was a dispensationalist, once was an Armennianist, once was a Charismatic. With one person arguing against what they have never looked into---well that wrecks something actually being a debate. (And I am generalizing here, not personalizing.) I am just saying, the more we know about what we are talking about, the better off we are. There is nothing to be afraid of.

LOL...........You seem to have been a lot of things!

I was once a sinner, and I still am but I am saved by the grace of God!

 

[Arial]

LOL...........You seem to have been a lot of things!

I was once a sinner, and I still am but I am saved by the grace of God!

It was a package deal.

 

[hawkman]

The Bible is a closed book.

Since you are still posting I have a question for you . What exactly are you calling "The Bible " ? KJV ? NIV ? The Message ? Douay-Rheims ? etc.

 

[Arial]

deleted. incorrect link.

 

[Arial]

Since you are still posting I have a question for you . What exactly are you calling "The Bible " ? KJV ? NIV ? The Message ? Douay-Rheims ? etc.

They are all the Bible---different translations.

 

[Arial]

Ok, but now, in apologetics, you need to state your actual case for this, not simply what you believe about it. You regard it as coincidence that the same Greek wording is used in both passages, and coincidence that in context both passages are talking about prophecy? That's kinda my beef with the average Cessationist (not you, mind you. I'm just saying I run into this a lot). There is this great stress on the written word, but when the written word seems to present something that runs counter to what they believe it never gets addressed.

If you can, tell me why both passages would use the same Greek wording in the phrases ἐν αἰνίγματι and πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον ("in an enigma" and "face to face") and not be dealing with the same subject?

See OP in Apologetics

 

[Rodger]

It was a package deal.

I do not believe that is Biblical truth. It is if you are a Pentecostal believer who "wants" those sign gifts, but it is not so stated in the Scriptures. Lets do a Bible study shall we ............

Mark 16:14-17 is the charge of the "Sign Gifts"....
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

First of all, There is significant evidence that the original Mark did not include these verses. It would be very wrong to make a doctrine out of these verses. If we are not entirley sure that this passage
was in the original, this might have some effect on the importance of interpreting, as you can imagine.

Secondly, perhaps all of us are agreed that more than ninety-five per cent of all Christians let their religious, denominational or spiritual leaders do most of their thinking for them instead of accepting what the Scriptures actualy and literally say.

LOOK at verse #14......"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven ".
The ELEVEN were the Apostles minus Paul who had yet to meet Jesus.

Third, and Greek Grammer demands that the highlighted "Them and They" in the posted Scriptures are what is referred to as "ATACEDENTS." In other words, they point back to the subjst or context of the words said which is in verse #14......."ELEVEN".

Then YES, it was a "package deal"...........a package gift given by Jesus to the ELEVEN Apostles as a sign of their calling from God to validate their message of the gospel.

 

[Hidden In Him]

See OP in Apologetics

Why on earth did you create a new thread for it, LoL? Why not post it here? That's what I've been waiting on for three pages now? Why should I not be able to respond to it in my own thread?