“But woe to you that are rich.â€

[elijah23]

But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation. Luke 6:24 RSV

It is a sin to be rich? If so, how much money do you have to have before you are rich?

 

[stovebolts]

Net Bible: 1 Timothy 6:17 Command those who are rich in this world’s goods not to be haughty or to set their hope on riches, which are uncertain, but on God who richly provides us with all things for our enjoyment. 6:18 Tell them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, to be generous givers, sharing with others. 6:19 In this way they will save up a treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the future and so lay hold of what is truly life.

Being rich is not a sin, what one does with his wealth will be considered.
I would suggest that if you have a roof over your head, and food stocked up for tomorrow, you're considered rich.

Take for example this story.

Net Bible: Luke 12:13 Then someone from the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.†12:14 But Jesus said to him, “Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator between you two?†12:15 Then he said to them, “Watch out and guard yourself from all types of greed, because one’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.â€

12:16 He then told them a parable: “The land of a certain rich man produced an abundant crop, 12:17 so he thought to himself, ‘What should I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?’ 12:18 Then he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 12:19 And I will say to myself, “You have plenty of goods stored up for many years; relax, eat, drink, celebrate!â€â€™

12:20 But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded back from you, but who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ 12:21 So it is with the one who stores up riches for himsel, but is not rich toward God.â€

 

[Ninjasaurus]

I think the term "rich" is extremely relative. Rich compared to whom? For a person who has been in poor conditions all their life, being in an upper-middle class household might be different to them. I know a friend who grew up in a big city and never considered herself that lucky until she took a trip to India and saw all that went on in the slums there. Another relative grew up during the Depression, in an extremely poor neighborhood where people rarely had enough food. Of course, this didn't seem strange to him because everyone else around him was in the same situation. He wasn't even aware that he was considered "poor" by most people's standards until he went off to college.

 

[Nick]

I think the term "rich" is extremely relative. Rich compared to whom? For a person who has been in poor conditions all their life, being in an upper-middle class household might be different to them. I know a friend who grew up in a big city and never considered herself that lucky until she took a trip to India and saw all that went on in the slums there. Another relative grew up during the Depression, in an extremely poor neighborhood where people rarely had enough food. Of course, this didn't seem strange to him because everyone else around him was in the same situation. He wasn't even aware that he was considered "poor" by most people's standards until he went off to college.

That is a good point - richness is relative, but the Bible passage Jeff quoted still stands.

Here's another passage on riches and giving, in Luke 21:1-4 (NIV):
As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins."I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

 

[DrFrank]

Most Americans Are In Big Trouble!

And then there is this famous verse which I interpret literally:

Matthew 19:24 (King James Version)

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

"Eye of a needle" was the name used during Jesus' time to refer to a low entrance through protective walls built around cities to keep large animals such as camels out.The only way a camel could get through these entrances would be if it first lied down and then several men tied ropes on it and pulled it through.

The Christian teaching on wealth certainly is interesting isn't it considering the teachings of some television ministers? One of my former clients was the personal assistant to one of them and she has described to me the luxury hotel lifestyle, which she describes as " like a rock star" ,which they live with donated money given to them frequently by very poor individuals who make real sacrifices to support them.

WAIT A MINUTE!

I JUST FIGURED IT OUT!! 3

NOW I UNDERSTAND WHAT JESUS MEANS:

Matthew 7:22-23 (Contemporary English Version)

22 On the day of judgment many will call me their Lord. They will say, "We preached in your name, and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles." 23 But I will tell them, "I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!"

WAIT ANOTHER MINUTE!

Almost all Americans live better than 90% of the world's population.

OH NO! I JUST FIGURED IT OUT !!

Contrary to what they keep indicating in churches,it looks like God isn't an American ! :amen

 

[Mike]

I do agree that it's very short sighted to look at your neighbor to determine your wealth. By neighbor here, I would say the country you're living in, and to me that would the U.S. Even to look at our century can be limiting because of social security. I've been to deprived areas of Brazil with our church a few times. That was enough to know those who consider themselves poor in the U.S. are actually very wealthy. We have safety nets that can keep them from living in filthy disease. Sure some slip through the cracks, and often they have a psychological condition that prevents them from being able to seek help.

But even visiting the "favelas" in Brazil is not equal to the depravity you see in Haiti, from my understanding. I've worked with doctors who have gone on Christian medical mission trips to Haiti and other parts of the world for years. From their experience, there is nothing to compare to the sadness of Haiti. I've heard and seen footage of Bombay as well. Looking throughout the world, there has been depths of devastation we have never seen.

Does this make someone free from the sin of envy and idolatry? No. It's all scaled down, but they battle too. In the favelas, someone with a metal roof over 4 posts is the envy of someone with a tarp. I witnessed this myself. By comparison, they are amazing in their faith. They cling to God for every breath they take, but they aren't removed from the human condition of sin. Just thought I'd share.

 

[jasoncran]

dr.frank the eye of the needle refers not to a gate, that was debunked a while ago.

it refers to the noose or rope around the camel used to control that animal most likely.

 

[Bugala]

Abraham, the father of our religion, was rich.
Salomon was exremely rich (if i rightly rememebr, Bible even quotes him having more money than anyone in the world)
Job was rich, and after all the trouble, God gave him even MORE riches than before.

Does bible say being rich is a sin? No
Does bible say rich people dont get to heaven (bye bye Abraham, Salomon, Job, etc.)? No

It just says that it is hard for Rich to get into heaven. That for rich people it is hard to bow down and humble (which figuratively is what camels need to do to get through that place called eye of needle, that they cant stand their heads proud and go through it).

When bible talks about rich people, it doesnt always speak of only people who have lots of money. There are other ways to be rich too.

Maybe you are rich in friends, that you have loads of them. Or maybe you are rich in hobbies, that all your time is occupied by the great amount of your hobbies. Or maybe you have great knowledge or great skills.

If someone who doesnt have any friends is told the good message, its not a problem for him to follow Jesus if he believes the message. someone with lots of friends mioght doubt, since he might wonder what hes friends think if he now starts following Jesus suddenly.

Someone with lots of hobbies might have trouble in getting really inside the bible studies asnd stuff, since in order to get time to fellowship and prayer, he needs to give up some of those so belowed hobbies, or in worst case, that favorite hobby might not even be in line with his new chrsitian life.

Someone with great amount of years at schools, might suddenly find out that lot of the Atheist stuff he have learned in those years, are all suddenly wrong, and that makes you being fool.

And one with great skills might have trouble in bowing down to Lord and let him do His work instead of you yourself stepping in with your great skills of speaking and organizing.

This skill thing is bit like the new wine needs to be put on new empty vessel, and not on the old one.

Empty yourself first, so Christ can fill you.

Someone with nothing to lose, can do it much easier, than someone rich, who has everthing to lose.


Bible verses do apply to literally rich people too, because obviously someone with lot of money, had propably lot of other stuff too, and when you have concentrated your life on getting money, and suddenly God asks for example tenth of it, and togive to poors as they need and so on, it might be hard for the rich oneto follow hes conscinece and give to those in need, when he have so hard orked for all the money and learned the sefish ways that money gaining often means (not necessary of course, lot of rich people follow the get and give principle as well).

Do not forget that there are also several bible verses which talk about how God takes care of us, gives us richness and all.

Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Gen 26:12 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him.
(In Finnish version bible it says that LORD blessed him by giving hundredfold sowing)

 

[Bugala]

dr.frank the eye of the needle refers not to a gate, that was debunked a while ago.

it refers to the noose or rope around the camel used to control that animal most likely.

My fiend visited Isreal just i think it was this year, and he visited that place called "Eye of the Needle"-gate, so he have seen it with his very own eyes. he told me about that trip to there and mentioned that bible verse too. Not sure if he even emntioned that he saw Camels put throug hti, that maybe there were still Camels travelling through that place.

But that doesnt mean it woudl make your comment unvalid. Maybe both are true. Maybe it refers to both the place as well as those ropes. for we have to rememebr that Bible verses are in several layers. That each layer reveals us more indepth knowledge about everything.

 

[Bugala]

Re: Most Americans Are In Big Trouble!

Matthew 7:22-23 (Contemporary English Version)

22 On the day of judgment many will call me their Lord. They will say, "We preached in your name, and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles." 23 But I will tell them, "I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!"

I have been trying to find out what this verse means in another topic in this forum. When you first read it, it quickly comes to mind that most charismatic ones would be these, but when you look closer, that doesnt make any sense.

Heres link to that topic:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=48291

 

[jasoncran]

dr.frank the eye of the needle refers not to a gate, that was debunked a while ago.

it refers to the noose or rope around the camel used to control that animal most likely.

My fiend visited Isreal just i think it was this year, and he visited that place called "Eye of the Needle"-gate, so he have seen it with his very own eyes. he told me about that trip to there and mentioned that bible verse too. Not sure if he even emntioned that he saw Camels put throug hti, that maybe there were still Camels travelling through that place.

But that doesnt mean it woudl make your comment unvalid. Maybe both are true. Maybe it refers to both the place as well as those ropes. for we have to rememebr that Bible verses are in several layers. That each layer reveals us more indepth knowledge about everything.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... f-a-needle

please read that.

 

[Bugala]

hmm, thats interesting article, especially the part that went about "There is no archeological proof for the eye of the needle-gate" part.

For as i pointed out, my friend just visited eye of the needle gate, BUT knowing that they still keep selling pieces of Wood from the cross that Jesus was crucified (amongst other things), its well possible that they have just put up a gate at later point for tourists or something.

Anyone have any better knowledge on history of current "eye of the needle"-gates history? (I also have to check from my friend in case i remember wrong what he said, for maybe he said that he was in a place where it supposedly was and i just heard/remembered wrong that he said he was in that gate)

 

[Drew]

I think it is indeed a sin to be rich.

However, I need to qualify this statement. It is a sin to hold on to way more money than you need to live a "reasonable" life and also plan for retirement, etc.

This is one of the challenges to the obedient Christian - as long as there are poor in the world, diseases that need research money, the Christian simply cannot have yachts, huge cars, and big houses.

We are God's agents for healing the world, and accumulating excessive wealth, which could otherwise be diverted to those causes is not the gospel way.

Some will invoke Old Testament figures whom God "made rich". I thinks its a mistake to therefore assume being rich is OK. God was up to something very specific in the Old Testament, and it is dangerous to generalize from that.

After all, in the Old Testament, God ordered Israel to commit acts of war and kick people out their native land. Now I actually think there was a very good and specific reason why God did this, but it is not a principle that generalizes beyond the Old Testament. So just as we should not justify things like Iraq by appealing to the Old Testament, neither should we argue that its OK to be rich because Abraham and Solomon were rich.

 

[Mike]

I think it is indeed a sin to be rich.

However, I need to qualify this statement. It is a sin to hold on to way more money than you need to live a "reasonable" life and also plan for retirement, etc.

This is one of the challenges to the obedient Christian - as long as there are poor in the world, diseases that need research money, the Christian simply cannot have yachts, huge cars, and big houses.

Drew, I want to be clear that I'm not calling you a relativist when I say you have a lot of relativism in your post.

What is "rich"?
What is a "reasonable life and plan for retirement"?
What's a "huge" car?
What's a "huge" house?

Let's take a car for example, and say you have 4 people. One with a Hummer, 1 with a Lexus, 1 with a Taurus and 1 with a Yugo. The Lexus owner could accuse the Hummer owner of being negligent with his blessings. The Taurus owner could accuse both. The Yugo owner could accuse all three. So is the Yugo owner the one who's right? Maybe the guy who rides his bike work wouldn't think so.

We all make choices that predicate our lifestyles. We don't "need" a car. We could move to a location that doesn't require one or use public transportation. We don't need a house. We could make other arrangements. Two income households? We create that need. But there's nothing wrong with having these things in an of themselves.

All this to say, I don't think it's a sin to be rich. It's a sin to focus on being rich, obsessing on what we have, not being thankful for what we have, and not making ourselves available when the Lord places a need on our hearts. There's nothing inherently righteous about being in the lower class, just as there's nothing inherently evil about being in the upper class. It depends on your attitude, and your love for what you have, regardless of what that is, IMO.

Mike

 

[mondar]

Let's take a car for example, and say you have 4 people. One with a Hummer, 1 with a Lexus, 1 with a Taurus and 1 with a Yugo. The Lexus owner could accuse the Hummer owner of being negligent with his blessings. The Taurus owner could accuse both. The Yugo owner could accuse all three. So is the Yugo owner the one who's right? Maybe the guy who rides his bike work wouldn't think so.

If I drive the Yugo and pick up the guy riding his bike will that work?
Or if I drive the Taurus and offer to take the guy driving the Hugo to work with me, is that sufficient penance?
How about if I drive the Hummer and go around and take everyone where they need to go?

Speaking of bicycles......

One day I was driving my old Chevy S10 to work and I pulled up to a red light. Next to me was an Amishman on a bicycle, it was a 15 speed, ultra light, racing bike. Well, that brassy Amishman challenged me to a race.

When I rolled up my window, revved my engine and pealed out when the light turned green. In a matter of seconds I saw the Amishman peddling that bike right past me.

I stabbed the S10 into 2nd gear and roared right back past that Amish guy..... but was a little surprised when in a matter of seconds he again came up along side me and passed me out.

Not to be out done, I slammed it into 3ird gear. I passed him with the hammer down thinking that this will be the last I will see of that sucker. I was astonished when after a few seconds I looked out my side window and saw the Amish guy with his leg going so fast it was a blur. The wind had his hair blown back, and his hat was gone, but there he was passing me out.

So I put the S10 in 4th gear and thought nobody can possibly ride a bike this fast. My jaw dropped when in a matter of seconds I saw him come past me once again. I began to wonder if he was really human.

I finally put it in 5th gear, and smashed down the petal to the floor. I was no longer driving at a safe speed and felt concern for my own safety. I was afraid to look out the window. Well, in seconds when I did look, I had to pinch myself to believe it was real. There was that Amishman. I could no longer see his legs they were moving so fast. It looked like a large disk of black pants without seeing any one leg. His hands were glued to the handle bars, his knuckles were white, his skin was blow back to the sides of his face, his eyes were reddened, but there he was, going right on past me.

I pulled over to talk to him and he followed. I asked him how it was possible. He told me..... "well, when ya put up yer winder, ya caught my suspender in yer winder."

 

[Drew]

Drew, I want to be clear that I'm not calling you a relativist when I say you have a lot of relativism in your post.

I am not sure of the sense in which you use the term "relativism". But while I do agree that I did not define:

What is "rich"?
What is a "reasonable life and plan for retirement"?
What's a "huge" car?
What's a "huge" house?

.....I would not think that the "ambiguity" shoud be used by a Christian to justify excessive wealth. Yes, the line between "acceptable wealth" and "unacceptable wealth" is vague, but sometimes its pretty clear that people are setting their wealth above the gospel imperative.

There's nothing inherently righteous about being in the lower class, just as there's nothing inherently evil about being in the upper class. It depends on your attitude, and your love for what you have, regardless of what that is, IMO.

I think you are drawing a distinction that cannot be sustained. In other words, I would suggest that it is simply not possible for someone to have a billion dollars, in our world with its poverty and need, and not have the wrong attitude about wealth.

I am not accusing you of this, but we need to be wary of those who will say things like "Yes, I may have a billion dollars, but I love God more than my money - just because I have a billion dollars does not mean I place that money above God."

That kind of reasoning has a superficial appeal, but it ultimately does not work. And the reason it does not work is that we Christian have a non-optional responsibility to heal the world. And if you have a billion dollars, you are not fulfilling that obligation.

 

[Mike]

Drew, I want to be clear that I'm not calling you a relativist when I say you have a lot of relativism in your post.

I am not sure of the sense in which you use the term "relativism".

Drew, thanks for your reply. I would have started my post something like, "I see a lot of relativism here.", but I didn't want that to imply that I was calling you a relativist. Sufficiently confused, now? I am.

.....I would not think that the "ambiguity" shoud be used by a Christian to justify excessive wealth. Yes, the line between "acceptable wealth" and "unacceptable wealth" is vague, but sometimes its pretty clear that people are setting their wealth above the gospel imperative.

But, what is excessive wealth? Unless you're living on the level of the "untouchable" caste of India, my guess is there are some people that would think you are sitting on wealth. Do you feel guilty about it? I think that's between you and God, but I'm certainly not going to say you should or even if you're sitting on wealth in the first place.

There's nothing inherently righteous about being in the lower class, just as there's nothing inherently evil about being in the upper class. It depends on your attitude, and your love for what you have, regardless of what that is, IMO.

I think you are drawing a distinction that cannot be sustained. In other words, I would suggest that it is simply not possible for someone to have a billion dollars, in our world with its poverty and need, and not have the wrong attitude about wealth.

I am not accusing you of this, but we need to be wary of those who will say things like "Yes, I may have a billion dollars, but I love God more than my money - just because I have a billion dollars does not mean I place that money above God."

That kind of reasoning has a superficial appeal, but it ultimately does not work. And the reason it does not work is that we Christian have a non-optional responsibility to heal the world. And if you have a billion dollars, you are not fulfilling that obligation.

What if I have a billion dollars, but I started with 20 Billion and gave 95% of my net worth to the needy. I realize these are not realistic numbers, but I'm not sure how many people are walking around with a billion dollars in the first place. If you're still not satisfied enough to say they have done enough, how far down do they have to spend to make it right, in your opinion? If a philanthropist gives huge sums of money away, but his wealth allows him to generate further wealth that he can contribute to worthy causes, does this make his wealth wrong?

Drew, I get what you're saying. I would agree that a billionaire is not responding to the gifts he has received. Probably the same with a millionaire. All I'm saying is that we can't sit on our wrung of the economic ladder, look up at everyone and curse them for being so selfish. There will be countless people in wrungs below you who are pointing at you. I'm sure I have many things that I could do without that I'm blind to. This just seems like we would get to a point that we're guilting ourselves into having anything. If you think this is an extreme statement, then where is your middleground? Where does someone cross the line?

I maintain what I said earlier:

All this to say, I don't think it's a sin to be rich. It's a sin to focus on being rich, obsessing on what we have, not being thankful for what we have, and not making ourselves available when the Lord places a need on our hearts. There's nothing inherently righteous about being in the lower class, just as there's nothing inherently evil about being in the upper class. It depends on your attitude, and your love for what you have, regardless of what that is, IMO.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree. That's all.

 

[jasoncran]

drew in america many wont have a retirement as that is becoming a thing of the past.

i work for the government, and its not looking good for us! many are retiring early so that can get something.(decent health plans).

the towns to the southn of me are laying off cops. its that bad in america.

 

[Bugala]

I think it is indeed a sin to be rich.

However, I need to qualify this statement. It is a sin to hold on to way more money than you need to live a "reasonable" life and also plan for retirement, etc.

This is one of the challenges to the obedient Christian - as long as there are poor in the world, diseases that need research money, the Christian simply cannot have yachts, huge cars, and big houses.

Not necessary having anything to do with this actually, since it depends how you look at it. but it is anyway worth a thought in this matter:

For God built Himself a temple. And that Temple cost a LOT. the temple they built for God in Old Testament. You could surely have fed loads of people with that money, you could have bought lots of houses for poor and homeless.

And im pretty sure that at same time all that money was used to buitl that temple, there were families that were slavews to others, because of having so much debt that they couldnt have paid it back to the loaner, and hence as to my understanding law said, they became loaners slaves for some certain time. Im pretty sure that money could have been used to pay those debts those families had to their loaners and hence got families free from their slavery punishment.

And im also pretty sure that Stone temple had been quite enough, that building temple from gold isnt necessary at all. I think Stone temple would have lasted as long as golden temple does.

So when taking into consideration that we should imitate Jesus, and Jesus does the will of Father, and Fathers will was to build temple from Gold to Himself, instead of feeding all the poor people, buying those houses etc. it raises a possible doubt to your thought of too much money being a sin.

But i do agree that if christian is rich, he should take care of the not so fortunate ones.

 

[Pard]

But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation. Luke 6:24 RSV

It is a sin to be rich? If so, how much money do you have to have before you are rich?

It is not a sin to be rich, God grants us riches! It is sinful to be MISERLY. If you do not give to your fellow man what God gives to you, then that is sinful.