“Freedom from” anything is anything but freedom

[Milk-Drops]

You have missed the point entirely. There can be no "freedom from"

Your argument rests on a misunderstanding on what they mean by freedom from. The individuals are free from religious conviction. It's not about establishing a right to be free from religion at all times. It's all on their websites and you can look up cases they have taken.

anything that does not remove freedoms. The Communists employed "freedom from" and the result was no faith allowed.

That is not true in any of the communist countries that existed. Religions were broken up from the state, but here is the thing The USSR and Cuba both reinstated state religions.

The current move towards "freedom from hate speech"

which has nothing to do with the FFRF.

curbs speech for the sake of the sensibilities of a few or even one. Of course the exacerbating problem is hate is always a matter of opinion and just about never objective.

Can you name one law that stops your freedom of speech?

 

[T. E. Smith]

You can pick examples we all find unacceptable or we can pick an example only one finds unacceptable. Perhaps a man finds the term “freckle faced” insulting. In freedom from hate speech, no person would be able to use that term. Some find the police asking a witness if the suspect was a man or woman “hate” speech or what race they were bigotry. A witness is not allowed to the police the decor skin color of the suspect (although those differences don’t exist.) Have we lost or gained freedoms?

Yeah, if I shouted at someone on the forums, "You freckle-face!" That would not be permitted. And I'd get rebuked by a mod for good reason. As for the skin color issue, that's complicated, but of course skin color is a noticeable thing about a person and so is very useful to have for criminal descriptions. The issue is that on its own, it is too broad, and some racist white cops view Asians and black people as all looking basically the same, and so they might illegitimately suspect a person because of their race.

And I should be able to into a public school and hear the current scientific problems with evolution. Good luck with that one.

And you can. You'll hear teachers and authors point out that we don't know exactly how or why such-and-such happened. For example, the evolution of whales is something of a mystery - we have good hypotheses, but it is still a question. What we know is that it did happen, regardless of how.

What you won't hear is teachers saying, "We don't understand this difficulty in evolution, therefore God." Because not only is that a church-state violation, it is also just completely illogical, the "god of the gaps."

There is more than one way to forbid ideas.

How do public schools impose atheism then? By not preaching God? That's hardly imposing atheism. You go to church to hear preaching about God, and you go to school to learn about "secular" topics like math and evolution. (And you can eventually go to Christian colleges to hear about both.)

Dawkins and others say it is.

Dawkins has said that evolution makes it possible to be a fulfilled atheist, and I agree with that, but this does not mean that evolution leads to atheism. Besides, Dawkins is extreme as compared to mainstream evolutionists.

All agnostics become atheists with time. A failure to decide IS a decision.

False! Darwin stated that the older he gets, the more comfortable he is with an agnostic position. He died an agnostic. Why should someone be unable to die without knowing if God exists or not?

No, the moral decline in schools and the youth came in after prayer and God were outlawed. It was bad. Most other western nations recognize religion as a subject children need to be informed about. Only Americans officially prefer ignorance on that subject.

Informed about, yes. And SCOTUS has ruled that teachers can teach religion as long as it is done from a secular perspective and involves no endorsement of religion. Yes, in European countries, religion is a class, but it is (typically) taught from an objective perspective that does not endorse religion. And in these countries... guess what... religion is far less common.

Which is a good thing. I totally support education on religion from a secular, objective standpoint. And it is clear that education on religion leads to less religiosity. Since religion thrives on ignorance.

Can you name one law that stops your freedom of speech?

Well, no shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Right, Dorothy Mae? Should you have the right to shout that?

 

[T. E. Smith]

How about a silly one, freedom from bananas. I really dislike bananas so I’m in favor.

I hate bananas too. Now, imagine that people kept shoving bananas in my face and telling me about how yummy bananas are, even if I asked them to stop.

That's how it is with religion. People keep shoving religion in my face and telling me about how good religion is, even though I ask them to stop.

 

[God Is My Judge]

Religious people don't have the freedom to impose their beliefs on others via the public school system and the law. You are correct on that point. It is essential that the government not endorse and preach any particular religion; joining church and state corrupts both the church and the state.

Nor does the state have a right to impose it's "Woke" agenda on sensible people. Whether LGBTQ or Race Theory and even the Theory of Evolution as TRUTH. They have NO right to impose or teach anything in opposition to the Truth. I'm saying that based on your stance against Christianity. According to you, teaching to the contrary of secular should not be allowed. Well myth man, the coin of life has two sides, not one! However, you support the one, speaking against the other as if there is some fairness . Ther is no fair discourse in accomadation of the other. Let's keep it real here and stop speaking myths , will ya!

There is a total bias in your veiws . The powers that be, who implement laws saying things like ( conversion therapy for homosexuals is wrong) all while at the same time have Drag Queen readings and teaching their conversion therapy in schools to prepubescent minds . Teaching that there are many genders , not two, to elementary school children , is the flip side view against the common sense view. They do same approach that they condenm the right minded for doing - going forth with an agenda . The only difference they want their backward views to be the acceptable ones. They want to reimagine, reality, live in a myth! They want to convince the sane, they have been walking on the sky and the grass has been over our heads, we have been flying kites in rivers and streams , fishing in the sky , casting our nets in the clouds catching fish.
They want us to believe up is down and down is up! These crooked minded people want sane people to believe butt foreward is the right direction to get ahead! Lol!
Every singal person on this planet has agenda and belief. So the arugment is- which one is right? I'll tell you, the one that allows for Two sides of the coin to be spoken not just one, the one who is not afraid to let the otherside be heard . You should be able in school to hear the flip side to the Theory-Evolution, gender, and race. Fear ! doesn't want the other's side to be heard. And no matter what anyone says, Christianity is what mellowed out nations laws and helped kings be more humane. As Christianity is pushed out, we have growth in chaos which is spiritual retardation.
Point: If your psyche contradicts a biology that cannot be changed, then there is something wrong with your psyche not your biology. Since psyche is sunconscious firing of neurons, that means it is energy. And since energy begets energy that means something is influencing the firing . This therefore, brings us to the reality of good and evil. Now, clearly you believe in something called "god" or you would not have said "Thank God" for the doctors in another thread. It would seem then you simply have a problem with Christianity. It is clear, since you say " God" which means a Creator being over, you must know something is over the flip side of the coin, that is against Christianity. So how 'bout you explain to me what " god" you believe in myth man?

 

[God Is My Judge]

You can pick examples we all find unacceptable or we can pick an example only one finds unacceptable. Perhaps a man finds the term “freckle faced” insulting. In freedom from hate speech, no person would be able to use that term. Some find the police asking a witness if the suspect was a man or woman “hate” speech or what race they were bigotry. A witness is not allowed to the police the decor skin color of the suspect (although those differences don’t exist.) Have we lost or gained freedoms?

And I should be able to into a public school and hear the current scientific problems with evolution. Good luck with that one.

You go Dorothy Mae!

 

[T. E. Smith]

Nor does the state have a right to impose it's "Woke" agenda on sensible people. Whether LGBTQ or Race Theory and even the Theory of Evolution as TRUTH. They have NO right to impose or teach anything in opposition to the Truth. I'm saying that based on your stance against Christianity. According to you, teaching to the contrary of secular should not be allowed. Well myth man, the coin of life has two sides, not one! However, you support the one, speaking against the other as if there is some fairness . Ther is no fair discourse in accomadation of the other. Let's keep it real here and stop speaking myths , will ya!

There is a total bias in your veiws . The powers that be, who implement laws saying things like ( conversion therapy for homosexuals is wrong) all while at the same time have Drag Queen readings and teaching their conversion therapy in schools to prepubescent minds . Teaching that there are many genders , not two, to elementary school children , is the flip side view against the common sense view. They do same approach that they condenm the right minded for doing - going forth with an agenda . The only difference they want their backward views to be the acceptable ones. They want to reimagine, reality, live in a myth! They want to convince the sane, they have been walking on the sky and the grass has been over our heads, we have been flying kites in rivers and streams , fishing in the sky , casting our nets in the clouds catching fish.
They want us to believe up is down and down is up! These crooked minded people want sane people to believe butt foreward is the right direction to get ahead! Lol!
Every singal person on this planet has agenda and belief. So the arugment is- which one is right? I'll tell you, the one that allows for Two sides of the coin to be spoken not just one, the one who is not afraid to let the otherside be heard . You should be able in school to hear the flip side to the Theory-Evolution, gender, and race. Fear ! doesn't want the other's side to be heard. And no matter what anyone says, Christianity is what mellowed out nations laws and helped kings be more humane. As Christianity is pushed out, we have growth in chaos which is spiritual retardation.
Point: If your psyche contradicts a biology that cannot be changed, then there is something wrong with your psyche not your biology. Since psyche is sunconscious firing of neurons, that means it is energy. And since energy begets energy that means something is influencing the firing . This therefore, brings us to the reality of good and evil. Now, clearly you believe in something called "god" or you would not have said "Thank God" for the doctors in another thread. It would seem then you simply have a problem with Christianity. It is clear, since you say " God" which means a Creator being over, you must know something is over the flip side of the coin, that is against Christianity. So how 'bout you explain to me what " god" you believe in myth man?

Edward 2.0 I guess. Sigh.

Whether LGBTQ or Race Theory and even the Theory of Evolution as TRUTH.

These are not religious ideas and concepts.

The powers that be, who implement laws saying things like ( conversion therapy for homosexuals is wrong) all while at the same time have Drag Queen readings and teaching their conversion therapy in schools to prepubescent minds .

It is illegitimate to argue that the public schools should teach homosexuality is wrong because it is motivated by religion.

Teaching that there are many genders , not two, to elementary school children , is the flip side view against the common sense view.

Two sexes, many genders.

They want to reimagine, reality, live in a myth! They want to convince the sane, they have been walking on the sky and the grass has been over our heads, we have been flying kites in rivers and streams , fishing in the sky , casting our nets in the clouds catching fish.
They want us to believe up is down and down is up! These crooked minded people want sane people to believe butt foreward is the right direction to get ahead! Lol!

Just angry rhetoric not worth my time.

You should be able in school to hear the flip side to the Theory-Evolution, gender, and race.

No, because creationism and the "biblical standard for marriage" is clearly religious.

Christianity is what mellowed out nations laws and helped kings be more humane. As Christianity is pushed out, we have growth in chaos which is spiritual retardation.

False, just look at the secular nations in Europe and compare gun death statistics. Look at Pew's two independent studies on religion by state and on gun murder by state, and you'll see that the most religious states have the most gun murders. Look at stats that show how the most secular nations on Earth are the happiest.

So how 'bout you explain to me what " god" you believe in myth man?

None

You go Dorothy Mae!

Yep, clap each other on the back.

 

[Edward]

@Edward 2.0 I guess. Sigh

What's the matter?! You can't handle a couple Christians? Huh. I thought you were taller than that.

You see what faith in a real God looks like? If you said half as much in faith and belief of God as you do against God, He would have come revealed Himself to you. But your motive was wrong and so no wonder He didn't show up for you. He doesn't do magic shows and He wont even listen to one who does not have a contrite heart.

So God wouldn't even talk to you? Have you ever considered that, it might be you and not His fault? Wow, you got some Christians that will at least talk to you. You want to hear a supernatural testimony?

 

[jasonc]

Those get silly,

Seen one protest the soldiers cross on the veterans island that has no reference to the Bible or any diety

 

[God Is My Judge]

Edward 2.0 I guess. Sigh.

These are not religious ideas and concepts.

It is illegitimate to argue that the public schools should teach homosexuality is wrong because it is motivated by religion.

Two sexes, many genders.

Just angry rhetoric not worth my time.

No, because creationism and the "biblical standard for marriage" is clearly religious.

False, just look at the secular nations in Europe and compare gun death statistics. Look at Pew's two independent studies on religion by state and on gun murder by state, and you'll see that the most religious states have the most gun murders. Look at stats that show how the most secular nations on Earth are the happiest.

None

Yep, clap each other on the back.

You watch too much news. If you are equating Christ with guns, then you haven't been reading your bible lately. If someone says they follow Christ and are promoting Bang, Bang , shoot em up, kill em, Christ covered that, it's called hypocrisy! Because He didn't teach that. " He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" " Our weapons are not carnal" , that is not the case for the puppet masters behind the recent uptick in mass shootings. You should learn about using viral delivery and genes to deliver mind control technology into the brain. Pride goes BEFORE the fall- they can't help but disclose their plans. They're so proud of them after all. They simply accompany there insidious plans with benevolent flowery words and call them "things to help man". No, they wouldn't actually use them for evil- even though they can and do!

As for "These are not religious ideas and concepts." Not true. I believe in the God given right to choose. After all, God was the first to allow for the option of Him or sin in the Garden of Eden.

Moses was pretty clear as well-Deuteronomy 30:
The Choice of Life or Death
…14But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may obey it. 15See, I have set before you today life and goodness, as well as death and disaster. 16For I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, statutes, and ordinances, so that you may live and increase, and the LORD your God may bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.…

The point is I would encourage all to choose life and goodness. Moses showed two sides of the coin. The fearful powers want to stifle that choice. But when you think about it, for evil to prevail, the majority in the world must allow it. It would seem that most people have fallen asleep on that Rock.
You go off about Christianity this and that, I go off about evil and that- "We didn't start the fire"! LOL! It's been burning since this fallen world has been turning.

You say not a religious battle? Religion isn't simply ascribed to Christianity, though that is pure religion because it cares for the orphan and widows and does many good works :

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God …​

Pure religion undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

God isn't saying there are no other religions . He is distinguishing Pure Religion- His, from all other trains of thought. The word Religion isn't simply understood in the traditional sense only . It is also defined as-a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance:

So in essence all men practice religiously those things which they ascribe to as important. So it is a religious battle on both sides. I love how people like you religiously pursue the removal of True Religion - prayer in schools , teaching Creation etc... I don't hear these same hell bent persons objecting to Halloween which is the flip side of the coin, no! They hate truth is all.

Point is your psyche is at work for that which is evil. There is a war going on and we have simply entered the climatic age.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Switzerland is a country where citizens have guns at home and no such rate of murders exist.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your argument rests on a misunderstanding on what they mean by freedom from. The individuals are free from religious conviction. It's not about establishing a right to be free from religion at all times. It's all on their websites and you can look up cases they have taken.

Then their establishment is absurd. They were always free to be atheists. Nevertheless the words “freedom from” mean, by definition, others have no freedom to.

That is not true in any of the communist countries that existed. Religions were broken up from the state, but here is the thing The USSR and Cuba both reinstated state religions.

Right! And those who refused to participate as state outlined were arrested and tortured. That is NOT separation of church and state, right? Do you see that established state religions are not separating church from state at all?

which has nothing to do with the FFRF.
Can you name one law that stops your freedom of speech?

I don’t live there so no movement to restrict the expression or control (as in the communists above) of one’s faith applies to me.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree, separation of church and state is good. Hope that will be the case. But I can assure you the state would not keep its nose out of the church. Every Christian martyr died as an enemy of the state. Oh! and stop speaking myths.

When the state forbid churches from meetings, as in 2020/21 the separation was over. You see, no faith ought to be demonstrated in government owned property but the government retains the right to control religious gatherings. Talk about hypocrites!!

 

[Edward]

Switzerland is a country where private citizens are allowed guns and no such rate of murders exist.

Switzerland issues each household one fully automatic battle rifle and one 9mm pistol. Government Issue! It must be nice! I gotta buy my own, lol.

But you are right. Crime is almost non-exisant there. I have carried a gun for aout 37 years now. I've never had to shoot anyone and never had any gun type charges or violence.

Had a couple close calls! But the Lord a provided a way out of it without shooting them. He's very kind like that.

It may be true that who lives by the sword, dies by the sword. But carrying a defensive pistol is not living by the sword. I've never used my guns to make money with, lol.

 

[T. E. Smith]

You watch too much news. If you are equating Christ with guns, then you haven't been reading your bible lately. If someone says they follow Christ and are promoting Bang, Bang , shoot em up, kill em, Christ covered that, it's called hypocrisy! Because He didn't teach that. " He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" " Our weapons are not carnal" , that is not the case for the puppet masters behind the recent uptick in mass shootings. You should learn about using viral delivery and genes to deliver mind control technology into the brain. Pride goes BEFORE the fall- they can't help but disclose their plans. They're so proud of them after all. They simply accompany there insidious plans with benevolent flowery words and call them "things to help man". No, they wouldn't actually use them for evil- even though they can and do!

You're very right. Modern pro-gun Christianity is not really ancient Christianity at all. But religions evolve.

When the state forbid churches from meetings, as in 2020/21 the separation was over. You see, no faith ought to be demonstrated in government owned property but the government retains the right to control religious gatherings. Talk about hypocrites!!

The government shut down businesses in general for COVID, including churches. If the government had allowed churches to remain open while shutting down other businesses, it would be favoring religion and thus violating the first amendment.

 

[Edward]

Can you name one law that stops your freedom of speech?

What's the punch line? This ought'a be funny.

That's almost all they do is try to restrict speech nowadays. That's always what the news is about. SO and so said this, so they bad. Your carear is over now for saying that. It's reported he may sue for 15 million dollars.

So law or no law, there is no more freedom of speech.

 

[Edward]

The government shut down businesses in general for COVID, including churches. If the government had allowed churches to remain open while shutting down other businesses, it would be favoring religion and thus violating the first amendment.

Was you too busy raising the younger ones to go to school? You have it exactly backwards.

The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws that regulate an establishment of religion, or that prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of assembly, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights.

The Bill of Rights was proposed to assuage Anti-Federalist opposition to Constitutional ratification. Initially, the First Amendment applied only to laws enacted by the Congress, and many of its provisions were interpreted more narrowly than they are today. Beginning with Gitlow v. New York (1925), the Supreme Court applied the First Amendment to states—a process known as incorporation—through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

In Everson v. Board of Education (1947), the Court drew on Thomas Jefferson's correspondence to call for "a wall of separation between church and State", though the precise boundary of this separation remains in dispute. Speech rights were expanded significantly in a series of 20th and 21st century court decisions which protected various forms of political speech, anonymous speech, campaign finance, pornography, and school speech; these rulings also defined a series of exceptions to First Amendment protections. The Supreme Court overturned English common law precedent to increase the burden of proof for defamation and libel suits, most notably in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan (1964). Commercial speech, however, is less protected by the First Amendment than political speech, and is therefore subject to greater regulation.../

So the churches were exempt from the get go as a given that they do not have the authority to do that.They can't close any church. They can't even walk in. Behold, they have to stand at the door and knock, and ask permission to come in...:wink

 

[T. E. Smith]

So the churches were exempt from the get go as a given that they do not have the authority to do that.They can't close any church. They can't even walk in. Behold, they have to stand at the door and knock, and ask permission to come in...

See this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The Congress can make no law favoring/respecting religion, nor prohibiting religion. For the government to shut down businesses in general but allow churches to remain open simply by virtue of being religious houses of worship, then it would be making a law respecting a religious establishment - and thus violating the constitution.

How does the text you cited prove your point?

 

[Edward]

See this:

The Congress can make no law favoring/respecting religion, nor prohibiting religion. For the government to shut down businesses in general but allow churches to remain open simply by virtue of being religious houses of worship, then it would be making a law respecting a religious establishment - and thus violating the constitution.

How does the text you cited prove your point?

You're not so good with circular logic are you?

Didn't they teach you basic comprehension? If I didn't prove my point then what else is new with you? I never have proven a point with you. You must be the Oracle and are never wrong, impossible for you to learn anythig else because you already know everything!

Constitutional admendments are fairly basic bro. I stand in awe of of your lack of comprehension.

 

[T. E. Smith]

You're not so good with circular logic are you?

Didn't they teach you basic comprehension? If I didn't prove my point then what else is new with you? I never have proven a point with you. You must be the Oracle and are never wrong, impossible for you to learn anythig else because you already know everything!

Constitutional admendments are fairly basic bro. I stand in awe of of your lack of comprehension.

Yep, they are fairly simple. Religious establishments should be treated without any favor or disfavor as compared to any other establishment or business. (Hence why a church tax exemption is unconstitutional.) But if you have no more argument, I rest my case.

 

[Edward]

Yep, they are fairly simple. Religious establishments should be treated without any favor or disfavor as compared to any other establishment or business. (Hence why a church tax exemption is unconstitutional.) But if you have no more argument, I rest my case.

You ever think about becoming a politician? Cuz you sure are good at shovelin' it. Taxes are an oppression and fall under the 1st Admendment. And where did the Government get the authority to compare churches with other reguated businesses? There is a wall of seperation between the governent and the church. The church has more authority than the government does. Period. But you skipped that day in school, obviously.