“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[Jethro Bodine]

You who believed in vain (believed Christ has not risen), you are still in your sins.

That's assuring to me because I most definitely believed Christ has risen when I became saved. And always will.

Christ not really having risen from the dead is only one thing that can make faith in the gospel of a risen Christ vain (but since Christ is risen, faith in the gospel Paul preached can never be vain for that reason).

In your doctrine, you have all other things to worry about in regard to your faith being vain. Whether Christ has really risen or not is the least of your worries in your doctrine. You have the least assuring and insecure doctrine of them all. In your doctrine, since true believing is proven by it's perseverance, there's always tomorrow's sickness, or temptation, or desire, or trouble, or persecution to reveal what you think is saving faith as having not really been true believing all along:

"They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

If 'believe for a while' means 'didn't really believe' (a vain faith) that makes traditional OSAS doctrine the least assured and secure of all doctrines of salvation. How can it be the doctrine of assurance and security when you can never know if you have true faith because there is always tomorrow's evils to prove it otherwise? In that doctrine, you can't know that you have true saving faith until after you die and all opportunities to test your faith as being genuine have ended.

The mistake the church is making is thinking faith is an either/or proposition, meaning you either have it or you don't. But that is not how Jesus portrays it in the parable of the sower. He portrays faith in a weak vs. strong way. Weak faith, symbolized by roots that don't go down very deep, but are roots nonetheless, can not withstand the temptations and troubles of this life. That plant is quickly and easily uprooted. That is a weak faith. But for some reason soil #2 is interpreted as meaning the plant was never germinated to begin with--like it never existed. That condition is represented in soil # 1. That is where believing never occurred.

Meanwhile, a stronger believing still is symbolized in soil #3. The plant remains rooted, but it bears no fruit because of prevailing conditions that prevent it from doing so. The conditions don't uproot it, as they did in soil #2. They only prevent it from bearing fruit. The strongest faith of all is symbolized by the fourth type of soil. It not only stays rooted but bears fruit as well.

 

[chessman]

If I have free will that means I can choose to be saved, right?

Right.

I need someone to explain to me how you could have free will but then believe you cannot loose your salvation.

Easy. The Holy Spirit actually accomplishes His mission.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He said there were some there who had not held fast (past tense) and thusly still in their sins.

You're grasping at a worthless argument.
How does really never having believed to begin with make it so presently being saved is not conditioned on present believing?
And if you want to agree that only people who are presently believing are saved, how is the doctrine that perseverance in your believing is the sign that you really believed in the beginning supposed to be a doctrine of security and assurance, since tomorrow is always there to prove it as not having been for real from the start?

 

[chessman]

You have the least assuring and insecure doctrine of them all.

Nope. You do. I am assured of salvation because I believed Paul's Gospel in total. Not a portion of it.

"They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

You misunderstand the parable's meaning/doctrine and assume things not in evidence. Like soils 2-3 are saved. Jesus never says they were (or are) saved. You assume it and point to a parable to teach something (your insecure doctrine of salvation) because there is no Scripture that teaches your doctrine. Not 1 Cor 15:1-2 or this parable.

 

[GodsGrace]

Right.


Easy. The Holy Spirit actually accomplishes His mission.

Whether I want Him to or not?

So where's my free will?
Seems to me like I've lost it.

You know Chessman, I'm in a different time zone and will have to be logging off soon.
But I'll write later or tomorrow morning and show you why I can't believe in OSAS.
Free will is one of the reasons.
The other reason is the early church fathers.

To be cont'd...

Rollo Tamasi - same goes for you. Sorry.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. You do. I am assured of salvation because I believed Paul's Gospel in total. Not a portion of it.


You misunderstand the parable's meaning/doctrine and assume things not in evidence. Like soils 2-3 are saved. Jesus never says they were (or are) saved. You assume it and point to a parable to teach something (your insecure doctrine if salvation) because there is no Scripture that teaches your doctrine. Not 1 Cor 15:1-2 or this parable.

Every church I've gone to believes what Jethro and JLB are telling you.
Scripture has to really be twisted to come up with your understanding of it.
You take simple words and make them complicated and make them mean what they DON'T MEAN.
You mentioned Greek. Sometimes the Greek helps, sometimes it's not even needed.
YLT is great too. The church in existence from the beginning DID NOT believe in eternal security. I'll show this to you.

Lata...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nope. You do. I am assured of salvation because I believed Paul's Gospel in total.

You misunderstand terribly. When the gospel is believed in non-OSAS, the person is saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB). And as long as you are believing, weak faith or strong, you have the full assurance and security of that salvation. But in your doctrine you can never know if your present believing is for real or not, because tomorrow's trouble may reveal it as having been false all along. You can never know today if your believing is real. That's not a doctrine of security and assurance.

You misunderstand the parable's meaning/doctrine and assume things not in evidence. Like soils 2-3 are saved. Jesus never says they were (or are) saved.

Okay, good. You're taking the bait.
How much fruitfulness does it take to be saved soil #4?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am assured of salvation because I believed Paul's Gospel in total. Not a portion of it.

But which is sad, because by your own doctrine you can't know that you have 'really' believed the gospel so as to be saved by it until all opportunities for the testing of that faith to show it as having been genuine or not from the start have ended . IOW, you can never know if your faith has been genuine in this life. How is that a doctrine of assurance and security?

In non-OSAS you have the full security of salvation in any moment of time you are believing:

"2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain (in which case the condition for holding fast the word is simply made moot, not nullified)." (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB parenthesis mine)

 

[chessman]

Every church I've gone to believes what Jethro and JLB are telling you.

Okay. But that doesn't mean anti-OSAS is true. The largest church in the world (RCC) teaches what Jethro and JLB teach. That church also teaches you can literally purchase your salvation or someone else's. And most conveniently for them, re-purchase it over and over again.

Scripture has to really be twisted to come up with your understanding of it.

I could say the same about you, Jethro or JLB. But without any proof of 'twisting Scripture' it doesn't mean much. All I can say is if there were a Scripture that taught me that the Holy Spirit failed at His job on occasion, I'd believe it.

But 1 Cor 15:1-2 nor the parable of the soils teach anti-OSAS.

I'm in a different time zone and will have to be logging off soon.
But I'll write later or tomorrow morning and show you why I can't believe in OSAS.

Okay. As you sleep, are you presently believing or are you pretty much asleep?

You take simple words and make them complicated and make them mean what they DON'T MEAN.

Like where, exactly? I take simple words and show how they mean what they originally meant, nothing more, nothing less. It is these two people you mention that make words like "receives it with joy" 'mean' saved. If Jesus meant that the rocky soil was saved, He could have said so. He didn't.

 

[JLB]

Right.


Easy. The Holy Spirit actually accomplishes His mission.

The Holy Spirit is given to us to empower us to do what we can not do, without Him.

Also, to lead us and guide us into all truth.

The freewill of the believer is to follow the leading or not.

To walk according to the Spirit or walk according to the flesh.

The Holy Spirit will lead a believer in the way of righteousness, if the believer chooses to obey.

If the believer chooses to obey unrighteous and disobedience instead, and continues in a lifestyle of disobedience then at the end of their life they will receive the wages due for choosing this lifestyle...

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:8

Paul clearly lays out the choices of the believer, to the Church at Rome:

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Here are the choices, that Paul describes as he urges them to make the right [righteous] choice:

do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but
present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The choice to become a slave to sin, or become a slave to God and His righteousness:

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:12-23


The end result of choosing to become a slave of God and His righteousness: everlasting life.


Paul makes it clear that God will render to each one, according to the choices that they make in the deeds they do.

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


The choice is for each child of God to make.

choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve... But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15

But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you, after He has done you good.” Joshua 24:19-20



JLB

 

[JLB]

But which is sad, because by your own doctrine you can't know that you have 'really' believed the gospel

And by default, they don't really have the assurance of faith.


JLB

 

[smaller]

The debate between "full assurance" or OSAS compared to the opposing sights of "possible loss" is quite simple, as to which direction to go.

John tells us that God is Love. 1 John 4:8.

Paul tells us that love NEVER fails. 1 Cor. 13:8.

The supposition that the non-OSAS crowd puts in play is that believers can fail and or not believe. But they never put in play that God is Love, and Love never fails. Never.

Do we fail? That's pretty obvious by comparison to never failing isn't it?

The point is to base our salvation on us not failing is entirely futile. We are failures, period, because we are not LOVE and we do FAIL.

So, the non-OSAS crowd believes that man fails. So what? That's a given. Is there a single one of them who doesn't? Our nature dictates failure. Why base our salvation on our assured failure to begin with? It makes no sense. IF our salvation is reliant on our shaky ground, none of us are going to make it. We are NOT The Perfect Foundation. But LOVE never fails. Why base our salvation on ourselves? Are we capable enough to NEVER fail? Absolutely not.

Our failures are guaranteed by our nature. The fact that we have sin dwelling in our flesh and evil present with us means that never failing is not even an option for us. The presence of those things means we are guaranteed failures, period. No amount of performances can make evil present and indwelling sin obey or not fail or NOT do what they do.

Our foundation is on Jesus Christ, who is God, who NEVER fails.

If we don't build from that supposition, that foundation, we are only left with our own foundation, which is NOT secure whatsoever, never was, never will be. That foundation is a foundation of sand doomed to wash away. Of dust, blowing in the wind.

We build from, upon, a FOUNDATION WHO can not fail.

Do we fail? Duh? We're not God.

Paul didn't build on a failed foundation. What he himself laid from there was the fact that he was a failing sinner, saved solely by Grace and Mercy, which does not and can not fail.

1 Timothy 1:
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Do sinners fail? This is so easy to determine, is it not? Why would we even consider setting our foundation on potential failure?

 

[chessman]

But in your doctrine you can never know if your present believing is for real or not

You misunderstand terribly.
If your past believing was in the true and full Gospel, you can (and should) know you will be saved throughout eternity.

Now, if you believe only part of the Gospel, you have no assurance of Life for eternity.

But in your doctrine you can never know if your present believing is for real or not,

This is why you let people that actually believe in their doctrine explain what it is they believe rather than listening to someone else twist what they believe.

I no more believe 'you can never know if your present believing is for real or not..." than I believe a gospel without a risen Christ saves you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now, if you believe only part of the Gospel, you have no assurance of Life for eternity.

Nor if you stop believing. You do not have eternal life if you stop believing.

The condition for being saved is that you are presently believing. If your past, correct believing in the correct gospel has stopped you are not saved, because Paul said you are presently saved if you are presently believing:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Unless you believed in vain to begin with, which simply makes the condition for salvation moot, not nullified.

 

[chessman]

Christ not really having risen from the dead is only one thing that can make faith in the gospel of a risen Christ vain

Can you post and underline anything else besides believing that Christ was not risen from 1 Cor 15 that makes you unsaved?

You're grasping at a worthless argument.

Nope. Just reading the Text without adding/subtracting from it.

If your past, correct believing in the correct gospel has stopped you are not saved, because Paul said you are presently saved if you are presently believing:

Paul said months later that a Corithian was presently saved if he/she believed in the Gospel he had preached to them months earlier. An amazing OSAS statement in/of itself. That is, if you believe what he claimed is true. He also said you are not saved if you had believed something less than what he preached.

He didn't say "If your past, correct believing in the correct gospel has stopped you are not saved". You just make this stuff up.

 

[chessman]

Nor if you stop believing. You do not have eternal life if you stop believing.

Then (if your idea were true) evidently it wasn't really eternal now was it?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Every church I've gone to believes what Jethro and JLB are telling you.
Scripture has to really be twisted to come up with your understanding of it.
You take simple words and make them complicated and make them mean what they DON'T MEAN.
You mentioned Greek. Sometimes the Greek helps, sometimes it's not even needed.
YLT is great too. The church in existence from the beginning DID NOT believe in eternal security. I'll show this to you.

Lata...

Many church fathers were agnostics.
Which ones do you put your faith in?
Oh, and by the way, are soulmates forever or can you just throw them away whenever you think you have tired of them?

 

[smaller]

Then (if your idea were true) evidently it wasn't really eternal now was it?

Nope. It wasn't. That 'gift' has fallen from sight in those who try, on their own, to own, to earn it or to make it for themselves, by themselves. That was never in our hands to start with and it certainly isn't afterwards.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Believers seldom see that the first bolded part is true for us all who believe. Those who don't haven't perceived yet, their actual standing in the flesh.

Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

1 Corinthians 15:31
I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

That dead man can certainly try to work himself back to life, but it is not going to happen. The flesh man will remain rejected by the Spirit no matter what his works are.

Such were never capable of what they are trying to obtain to start with. If there is any lasting working, it has to be only Christ, and not ourselves, cause technically speaking, WE DIED.

So, who is left to blame? A dead man or Christ?

It was never the dead man's cause, or ours to "create" from our own works to start with. Do any of us do "eternal works?" Uh, not likely. We reflect what we receive. And a very pale reflection it can be at that when our dead man gets in the way, trying to earn his way back or in or even forward.

 

[chessman]

The Holy Spirit is given to us to empower us to do what we can not do, without Him.

Yep.

Also, to lead us and guide us into all truth.

Yep.

Case closed.

 

[JLB]

Yep.


Yep.

Case closed.

This is a text book example of those who further the false doctrine of OSAS, do so by ignoring the scriptures and the truth they don't like.

Full post which you can not address, because it shows us from the scriptures the choice a believer must make, to have eternal life, and inherit the kingdom of God.

Here is the full post that you ignored, in favor of playing games with people's lives and salvation.



The Holy Spirit is given to us to empower us to do what we can not do, without Him.

Also, to lead us and guide us into all truth.

The freewill of the believer is to follow the leading or not.

To walk according to the Spirit or walk according to the flesh.

The Holy Spirit will lead a believer in the way of righteousness, if the believer chooses to obey.

If the believer chooses to obey unrighteous and disobedience instead, and continues in a lifestyle of disobedience then at the end of their life they will receive the wages due for choosing this lifestyle...

but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:8

Paul clearly lays out the choices of the believer, to the Church at Rome:

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members asinstruments of unrighteousness to sin,but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members asinstruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Here are the choices, that Paul describes as he urges them to make the right [righteous] choice:

do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin,but
present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The choice to become a slave to sin, or become a slave to God and His righteousness:

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to morelawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:12-23


The end result of choosing to become a slave of God and His righteousness: everlasting life.


Paul makes it clear that God will render to each one, according to the choices that they make in the deeds they do.

who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal lifeto those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


The choice is for each child of God to make.

...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve... But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15

But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you,after He has done you good.” Joshua 24:19-20


He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you, after He has done you good.”



JLB