“Full Assurance of Faith” (Hebrews 10:22)

[Jethro Bodine]

Then (if your idea were true) evidently it wasn't really eternal now was it?

Eternal life is and always be eternal. The person who stops believing and thus no longer has that eternal life hardly makes it so eternal life is not eternal life anymore.

Can you post and underline anything else besides believing that Christ was not risen from 1 Cor 15 that makes you unsaved?

"24 ...let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB bold and underline mine)

He says the same thing Paul says. The condition for having the Son and the Father and, eternal life is that you what you heard in the beginning abides in you. That completely obliterates hyper-grace OSAS that says you can stop abiding in what you heard in the beginning and you still have the Father, the Son, and eternal life. And it ruins traditional OSAS that says a believer will never stop abiding in the word they heard, because just a few verses before this in 1 John 2:19 John talks about those who did not abide, and that "As for you (the believers he's writing to), let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning", so you'll continue to abide in the Son and the Father, without whom you do not have eternal life.

19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued (same word as 'abide' in vs. 24 above) with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." (1 John 2:19 KJV italics in original)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul said months later that a Corithian was presently saved if he/she believed in the Gospel he had preached to them months earlier. An amazing OSAS statement in/of itself. That is, if you believe what he claimed is true. He also said you are not saved if you had believed something less than what he preached.

We know they believed what he first preached to them:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand" (1 Corinthians 15:1 NASB)

Crystal clear. And we know the gospel they heard and which they received and in which they now stand included a risen Christ:

"3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3-4 NASB)

So we know 'unless you believed in vain" does not mean they believed in a not risen Christ. Paul did not preach that to them, and what he did preach (a risen Christ) is what they received and are standing in (Paul plainly said so). What potentially makes the genuine faith the Corinthians have vain is not that they received a risen-less gospel of Christ (Paul did not preach that, and he says they received the true gospel that he did preach). What would make their genuine believing vain is if Paul bore false witness to them that Christ rose from the dead if in fact there is no such thing as the resurrection of the dead. That's what would make the Corinthians genuine faith in Paul's gospel vain:

"if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. " (1 Corinthians 15: NASB)

You are the one adding made up stuff that the Corinthians did not receive and are not standing on the true gospel of the ressurection. There is no basis for an argument that 'unless you believed in vain' means the Corinthians, or even some of them, believed from the start that Christ never rose. The plain words of scripture are here for honest, truth seeking people to read for themselves. Your argument simply is non-existent in the passage, while mine is right there in plain words.

 

[GodsGrace]

Many church fathers were agnostics.
Which ones do you put your faith in?
Oh, and by the way, are soulmates forever or can you just throw them away whenever you think you have tired of them?

I put my trust in the Apostolic church fathers. A couple knew the Apostles. Like Ignatius of Antioch. And on through about the 200's. Some were gnostics and heretics, but the church was successful in keeping their ideas out of the new church.

As far as soulmates go, this is a human condition. Are we as just as God is? Do we demand as much?
If two soulmates left each other, they'd still be soulmates. §But God is a just God, He cannot be in the presence of sin. We MUST believe in Jesus' to be cleansed of our sins. You've brought this up before, I understand what you mean, but I think it's two different ideas.

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

To all of you who plan on burying yourself in hell.
You can't do it.
Think you can?
Then I challenge you to STOP BELIEVING IN JESUS CHRIST!

Now you know, the moment you think about it, that you can't do it.
Then, if you decide to do it to prove a point here, it will become very scary.
What if I successfully stop believing in God and can't get back?
If you keep thinking about it long enough, you will probably go insane.

The truth is, all of you claim you can lose your salvation and then get it back again, but none of you are willing to try it to prove a point.
You are all proving you are very weak in your faith and strong in vanity.
Hopefully you will see it before God blinds your eyes forever.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe the passage clearly indicates that Paul (months after visiting Corinth) was still sure that those who were "holding fast" were being saved. And furthermore, why. Because those who believed Christ had risen did not believe a vain Gospel. They believed a powerful/purposeful Gospel. One anchored squarely upon Jesus being the Christ, The risen God-Man

the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved,​

No, it doesn't 'mean' that. In theroy, sure. But I note Paul doesn't say that some had 'let go'. He says some had believed (past tense, single event) in a un-risen Christ. Don't get me wrong, I do understand how this passage, in theory, could lead someone to theorize that people could 'let go' of a true salvific belief. But the technical fact is, the passage doesn't say anything about 'letting go'. Evidently Paul did too so he qualified his statement with "unless you believed in vain". Which is why that qualification is often left out by anti-OSAS posters.


Hopefully (that's my goal anyway) it means to me the same thing it meant to Paul.

The Greek word is really based upon a nautical term. As in the anchor is "holding fast". If you've done much boating, you know how important it is that the anchor is "set firm". If it slips hold because it really wasn't set firmly to begin with during the night or when someone is not paying attention, you are in trouble.

[I ONCE made a SCUBA dive with just me and a buddy on the boat. Came up 20 minutes later and you guessed it, the Boat was gone and us 10 miles out in the Gulf of Mexico. It took me 2 hours to catch up to the boat as it drug anchor in the wind. Pretty lucky really to have caught it. My buddy gave up swimming and let me go get the boat. I had to go back and get him.]

The point is though, the anchor was never "holding fast", else the boat would have been there when I surfaced. Paul knew the in's/out's of boat anchoring.

I just noticed, the highlighted and underlined above:
It doesn't say that a vain gospel was preached
It says unless they would have believed in vain. In vain - to no avail.

W

 

[chessman]

The person who stops believing and thus no longer has that eternal life hardly makes it so eternal life is not eternal life anymore.

Only if you ignore the fact that it wasn't really eternal.

We know they believed what he first preached to them:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand" (1 Corinthians 15:1 NASB)

Only if you ignore the second 1/2 of Paul's sentence"... unless you believed in vain."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The truth is, all of you claim you can lose your salvation and then get it back again, but none of you are willing to try it to prove a point.

You'll have to be a little more sensitive to those of us who have family and friends who have departed the faith, contrary to your claim that a person can not stop believing.

My wife who I know for a fact was saved and had the Holy Spirit (had the gift of tongues) would be able to come on here and explain to you how you can lose your salvation but since she loathes all things 'Christian' now she would throw a fit for me even bringing it up. So don't waste your cyber-breath telling me how a believer can not become an unbeliever.

 

[chessman]

It doesn't say that a vain gospel was preached

Nor did I say a vain gospel was preached. Never the less, Paul says that some among them believed in vain (believed Christ had not risen). That's the point.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nor did I say a vain gospel was preached. Never the less, Paul says that some among them believed in vain (believed Christ had not risen). That's the point.

Chessman,
Be nice or speaking to you will become difficult.

This is exactly what you said:

I believe the passage clearly indicates that Paul (months after visiting Corinth) was still sure that those who were "holding fast" were being saved. And furthermore, why. Because those who believed Christ had risen did not believe a vain Gospel. They believed a powerful/purposeful Gospel. One anchored squarely upon Jesus being the Christ, The risen God-Man

YOU said it, not me.

W

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

You'll have to be a little more sensitive to those of us who have family and friends who have departed the faith, contrary to your claim that a person can not stop believing.

My wife who I know for a fact was saved and had the Holy Spirit (had the gift of tongues) would be able to come on here and explain to you how you can lose your salvation but since she loathes all things 'Christian' now she would throw a fit for me even bringing it up. So don't waste your cyber-breath telling me how a believer can not become an unbeliever.

If you can't take it Jethro, you should quit torturing yourself and get into something more suitable for you, like the Foundation of Faith forum or something.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It doesn't say that a vain gospel was preached
It says unless they would have believed in vain. In vain - to no avail.

And not just believed in vain, but genuinely believed in Jesus in vain.

(Not directed to you, wondering) Paul plainly says they have genuinely believed in his gospel of the risen savior in vain if Christ has not really risen from the dead, but chessman is twisting it to say they believed in vain because they did not really receive and stand in the true gospel from the beginning. But Paul PLAINLY says that is not the case at all. They did in fact receive and are standing on his gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1 NASB). Plain as day. Any honest person can read it for themselves. The problem is they are being tempted by false apostles to abandon his gospel for a false gospel that can not save:

"3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4 NASB).

 

[netchaplain]

I guess you didn't understand what I wrote, as I probably didn't make myself clear in what I was wanting to convey.

Point number one:

Every man who hears God's word has faith.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word [rhema] of God. Romans 10:17

I agree if you interpret "hear the Word" to mean not just hearing with the sense of hearing but understood and believed on. I see no reason to interpret it that it means everyone who hears the word comes to faith (Mat 13:19-23).

It intends the sense that everyone who comes to faith has done so by hearing the Word because you have to have knowledge of the Gospel of Christ first, to know what to believe in (Rom 10:14).

 

[GodsGrace]

And not just believed in vain, but genuinely believed in Jesus in vain.

(Not directed to you, wondering) Paul plainly says they have genuinely believed in his gospel of the risen savior in vain if Christ has not really risen from the dead, but chessman is twisting it to say they believed in vain because they did not really receive and stand in the true gospel from the beginning. But Paul PLAINLY says that is not the case at all. They did in fact receive and are standing on his gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1 NASB). Plain as day. Any honest person can read it for themselves. The problem is they are being tempted by false apostles to abandon his gospel for a false gospel that can not save:

"3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4 NASB).

Correct of course. And I pretty much am going to give up at this point since you and JLB are much better at this.
Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you can't take it Jethro, you should quit torturing yourself and get into something more suitable for you, like the Foundation of Faith forum or something.

I can take it. I think you should be considerate of others, though.

See, your boast that believers can not stop believing is foolish for those of us who know people who really did believe (as evidenced by the Holy Spirit) but who then renounced their faith and went back to the world.

 

[chessman]

Chessman,
Be nice or speaking to you will become difficult.

This is exactly what you said:

I believe the passage clearly indicates that Paul (months after visiting Corinth) was still sure that those who were "holding fast" were being saved. And furthermore, why. Because those who believed Christ had risen did not believe a vain Gospel. They believed a powerful/purposeful Gospel. One anchored squarely upon Jesus being the Christ, The risen God-Man

YOU said it, not me.

W

"Those who believed Christ had risen did not believe a vain Gospel."
How is that me saying that a vain gospel was preached? It's not.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree if you interpret "hear the Word" to mean not just hearing with the sense of hearing but understood and believed on. I see no reason to interpret it that it means everyone who hears the word comes to faith (Mat 13:19-23).

It intends the sense that everyone who comes to faith has done so by hearing the Word because you have to have knowledge of the Gospel of Christ first, to know what to believe in (Rom 10:14).

Netchaplain.
WHERE did JLB say that everyone who hears the Word comes to faith?
Please read his posts carefully.
He knows how one comes to saving faith.
And how important it is to keep it and hold fast to it.

Something that not everyone understands easily.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree if you interpret "hear the Word" to mean not just hearing with the sense of hearing but understood and believed on. I see no reason to interpret it that it means everyone who hears the word comes to faith (Mat 13:19-23).

The mistake you are making, net, is the soil that represents never believing is soil # 1.

"12“Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved." (Luke 8:12 NASB)

But since there is germination and growth in the second type of soil, and since Jesus himself plainly says it, we know soil #2 is a believer. A weak believer, for sure, who vanishes away, but a believer nonetheless. Soil #1 is the one that never believed. Soil # 3 is a believer who continues as a believer but doesn't bear fruit. Soil #4 is the believer who not only continues in the faith (he's still rooted), but also bears fruit.

 

[GodsGrace]

"Those who believed Christ had risen did not believe a vain Gospel."
How is that me saying that a vain gospel was preached? It's not.

????????????????

 

[GodsGrace]

I can take it. I think you should be considerate of others, though.

See, your boast that believers can not stop believing is foolish for those of us who know people who really did believe (as evidenced by the Holy Spirit) but who then renounced their faith and went back to the world.

I don't think Rollo's being inconsiderate. I think that if someone doesn't know someone personally that was saved and had faith, and then loses that faith, it's difficult to think that one could just stop loving God.

This might happen because a person's faith is not strong. I know a woman who was very involved in church, cleaning it, singing, the whole thing. Then her 14 year old son drowned. She abandoned God and no longer believed because she had been taught that God is a loving God.

Many times the above happens because people are not properly taught, as you've said yourself many times.
I do understand Rollo's point. One could not just wake up one morning and decide to stop loving God. In that sense he's correct.

Wondering

 

[chessman]

chessman is twisting it to say they believed in vain

Paul, not me, says some among YOU say that there is no ressurrection of the dead. That's not twisting Scripture. It's simply reading it and believing it.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?​