Growth “Keeping the Law”

[TOG]

Hebrews: "We are come....to Jesus, the Mediator of the New Testament'.

Between Malachi and Matthew the New Testament begins.

But the New Covenant doesn't do away with the Old Covenant. In my opinion, the term "Old Covenant" isn't very good, since it implies that there are only two covenants - one old and one new - but that simply isn't true. There are many covenants mentioned in "the Old Covenant". The first one that is explicitly mentioned as being a covenant was the one God made with Noah and all of his descendants (that's all of us). Next He made a covenant with Abraham and his descendants, which he confirmed to Isaac and Jacob. After that, God made a covenant with a mixed multitude of people whom He had lead out of Egypt and their descendants. But what if a person is a descendant of more than one of these people? Which covenant are they part of?

This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. (Gal. 3:17 ESV)
​

A new covenant doesn't annul an older covenant, but rather adds to it. Even though the stipulations of the Noahic covenant were not repeated, Abraham still had to abide by them, since God's covenant with him didn't annul God's previous covenant with all mankind. Instead, the covenant with Abraham added certain stipulations and promises to the Noahic covenant. And even though neither of these was repeated, they were still valid for all those at Mt. Sinai, since the covenant given there didn't annul the other two. But the Sinai covenant added requirements and promises to the former two covenants. The same applies to the New Covenant. It doesn't annul the Sinai covenant, but rather adds to it. In fact, the New Covenant is explained by the prophet Jeremiah, and specifically states: "I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts". What law is this talking about, if not the law given at Mt. Sinai?

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Moses was the mediator of the Law of Moses, the law of a carnal commandment, it could not bring eternal life. Aaron, of the tribe of the Levi, the high priest.

Am I misunderstanding what these verses say? How is the law a carnal commandment?

If you read the whole context (Heb. 7-10), you'll see that it's only talking about the priesthood and it's function, and how Jesus is now our high priest and has offered a better sacrifice. There's nothing in that whole section about dietary rules, the Sabbath, the annual festivals or any of the other commandments in the law. Only the priesthood has changed. And even that wasn't really new, since the priesthood according to the order of Melchizedech preceded the Aaronic priesthood.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

If you read the whole context (Heb. 7-10), you'll see that it's only talking about the priesthood and it's function, and how Jesus is now our high priest and has offered a better sacrifice. There's nothing in that whole section about dietary rules, the Sabbath, the annual festivals or any of the other commandments in the law. Only the priesthood has changed. And even that wasn't really new, since the priesthood according to the order of Melchizedech preceded the Aaronic priesthood.

The TOG​

I agree.
So now what about this scripture....

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[netchaplain]

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4-5


The reason and purpose Jesus Christ redeemed those who were under the law, was that they might receive the adoption as sons.

If Jesus redeemed those who were under the law of Moses, why would Christians be under the obligation to the law of Moses?

JLB

Hi JLB - Nice point! Shows that Christians, even Jewish Christians are not under the Law, and actually, since the giving of the Spirit, there is no more Law of Moses--just law of God, which is the Gospel of Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

would you as a believer would skip pauls fine preaching and go to the local jesus hating synagogue to learn the torah, why then would do so?

paul indeed knew the law as he was under gamaliel. who was Hillel's grandson. if you know anything about hillel. that's a lot.
theres no statement saying that the law's torah way of atonement was done away with. just rendered fullifilled in Christ. you are gentile. were you under the torah? NO, noah wasn't under the torah and yet he was commanded on commandment of food, not to eat blood. so if god has always called food bad, why then did he change his mind?

im not saying you cant be kosher, im saying you are free not to or do to so/ have you ever done any feast? I have one, I will do more in the future but the feasts are rendered impossible to fulfill. why? how can atone via animals for these?

Passover? yom kippur, sukhot?

 

[reba]

Remember guys this forum is discussion :nod not debate

 

[JLB]

I agree.
So now what about this scripture....

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage. Galatians 4:24


This scripture should be clear to all.

The Law was added until...

The Law of Moses was temporary and included all the requirements for animal sacrifices, feast days, food laws...

Since Christ has come, what was added temporarily has vanished away.

What remains is the laws of God's Kingdom that Abraham walked in.

The Law of God is permanent.

The law of Moses was temporary.

It was added until...


JLB



JLB

 

[jasoncran]

Remember guys this forum is discussion :nod not debate

point taken. for the record I can go either way but its take a lot of discipline to be kosher and tis not cheap, that and its a lot of time in being that way with shabat. kosher done probably requires that one has kosher plates and a kitchen. so if I was to have a gentile over he would have either eat as I do or I would have to prepare him a meal from another place.

 

[Deborah13]

point taken. for the record I can go either way but its take a lot of discipline to be kosher and tis not cheap, that and its a lot of time in being that way with shabat. kosher done probably requires that one has kosher plates and a kitchen. so if I was to have a gentile over he would have either eat as I do or I would have to prepare him a meal from another place.

Well you live in Florida where there are a lot of Jews and farms. You may even be able to find a kosher butcher.

 

[JLB]

Well you live in Florida where there are a lot of Jews and farms. You may even be able to find a kosher butcher.

We don't need any Kosher anything, since Jesus declared all foods pure.

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"

...whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him.

whatever means anything a person puts in their mouth to eat.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

We don't need any Kosher anything, since Jesus declared all foods pure.

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"

...whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him.

whatever means anything a person puts in their mouth to eat.

JLB

JLB, I agree with you. I already gave one of your other posts on this subject a like.

My post to Jason was light hearted, kosher butcher to go with his presumed kosher plates and kitchen.
I should have added some kind of goofy smiley face , to be clear, sorry.

Blessing to you

 

[jasoncran]

Well you live in Florida where there are a lot of Jews and farms. You may even be able to find a kosher butcher.

its expensive to do kosher. way expensive. I could if I really wanted to go to Miami and get the food there and eat it or the local temple would assists. the best likely would be the two chabad temples nearby.

 

[TOG]

point taken. for the record I can go either way but its take a lot of discipline to be kosher and tis not cheap, that and its a lot of time in being that way with shabat. kosher done probably requires that one has kosher plates and a kitchen. so if I was to have a gentile over he would have either eat as I do or I would have to prepare him a meal from another place.

its expensive to do kosher. way expensive. I could if I really wanted to go to Miami and get the food there and eat it or the local temple would assists. the best likely would be the two chabad temples nearby.

There are different "levels" of kashrut (being kosher). The one you're talking about is being completely rabbinicaly kosher. That involves having 3 sets of pots, pans, dishes, bowls, silverware and just about everything else in the kitchen, eating only meat that has been slaughtered in a specific way and many other things. I read somewhere that the rabbis themselves say that the most complicated section of the law is the dietary rules, followed closely by the Sabbath. I don't even try to be rabbinicaly kosher. I do, however, eat biblically kosher food. If we stick to the Bible, then the rules are simple, both for food and the Sabbath, and anyone should be able to follow those rules without any extra expense.

Kashrut:

• Of four-footed animals, eat only those that have cloven hooves and chew their cud
• Of things from the sea or fresh water, eat only that which has scales and fins
• Concerning birds, there is a list of the ones we may not eat, most of which are birds of prey (which most don't eat anyway)
• Don't eat blood or meat with blood still in it (This one was given to Noah and is repeated in Acts 15)
• Don't eat suet (the fat on the organs)
• Don't cook a kid in it's mother's milk (this one has more to do with Pagan sacrifices)

Sabbath:

• Rest
• Don't work (slightly different emphasis from the first one)
• Allow others under your supervision (family, servants, etc.) to rest
• Don't light a fire
• Keep the Sabbath holy (dedicate it to God)
• Hold a holy convocation (Sabbath go to meeting)

Not that hard at all if you don't try to keep thousands of years of tradition, interpretation and added man-made rules.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

I agree.
So now what about this scripture....

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

See posts 22 and 23, where I explain this. It's about the priesthood, not about the rest of the law. Also, a new covenant doesn't abolish an old covenant, but adds to it.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Notice the part I put in bold. The Galatians were Gentiles. How could they "turn again" to something they had never been under? This is obviously not talking about the Torah. Besides, do you really think Paul would call anything God gave to us "beggarly"?

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This is talking about being saved by following the rules of the Pharisees (their interpretation of the law) as opposed to being saved by grace through faith in Christ. It's not talking about eating pork or resting on Saturday.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

Remember guys this forum is discussion :nod not debate

And that's exactly how I've meant everything I've said. I apologize if it came across as anything else.

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

JLB, I agree with you. I already gave one of your other posts on this subject a like.

My post to Jason was light hearted, kosher butcher to go with his presumed kosher plates and kitchen.
I should have added some kind of goofy smiley face , to be clear, sorry.

Blessing to you

Thanks Deb, I saw the Humor.

I was adding a scriptures that others have explained away.

I probably should have replied this to another post.

:amen

 

[jasoncran]

There are different "levels" of kashrut (being kosher). The one you're talking about is being completely rabbinicaly kosher. That involves having 3 sets of pots, pans, dishes, bowls, silverware and just about everything else in the kitchen, eating only meat that has been slaughtered in a specific way and many other things. I read somewhere that the rabbis themselves say that the most complicated section of the law is the dietary rules, followed closely by the Sabbath. I don't even try to be rabbinicaly kosher. I do, however, eat biblically kosher food. If we stick to the Bible, then the rules are simple, both for food and the Sabbath, and anyone should be able to follow those rules without any extra expense.

Kashrut:

• Of four-footed animals, eat only those that have cloven hooves and chew their cud
• Of things from the sea or fresh water, eat only that which has scales and fins
• Concerning birds, there is a list of the ones we may not eat, most of which are birds of prey (which most don't eat anyway)
• Don't eat blood or meat with blood still in it (This one was given to Noah and is repeated in Acts 15)
• Don't eat suet (the fat on the organs)
• Don't cook a kid in it's mother's milk (this one has more to do with Pagan sacrifices)

Sabbath:

• Rest
• Don't work (slightly different emphasis from the first one)
• Allow others under your supervision (family, servants, etc.) to rest
• Don't light a fire
• Keep the Sabbath holy (dedicate it to God)
• Hold a holy convocation (Sabbath go to meeting)

Not that hard at all if you don't try to keep thousands of years of tradition, interpretation and added man-made rules.

The TOG​

not that hard? really so the animals health isn't important. you would eat a sickly, poor fed animal?

the pots and pans must be clean. a pig carries parasites. that is why until a hundred years ago they were avoided imho. even now in the third world nations brain parasites that kill people are from pigs. if the bones of a pig touch a pan its unclean.why? the parasites doesn't die easily, it takes radiation to kill it. or oil fed to the pig .

thousands of years of man 's traditions

ok work? what exactly is work? if you don't think typing on the internet causes men that are saved to sin then kindly explain why it isn't?

1) a man must maintain the towers
2) the power to the lines and towers must be maintained.
3) power itself must be run and checked. somebody always will work

and what does the lord say about tempting others about sin?

besides to be kosher it must be blessed by the rabbi. otherwise its not KOSHER.a special prayer is recited by the jews over that before its eaten.

uhm yeah lighting a fire in my home? yeah that wouldn't be possible for heat. and power? even with the appliances off meters still will move. computers must be charged and also some appliances have memeries. water must be heated. so it not possible to be that less of a burden.

 

[jasoncran]

besides jesus never nixed the way jews did kosher.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/222240/jewish/What-is-Shechita.htm

its not mentioned at all, im sure they did do the kosher plates and means as they had to have guests. jews didn't like gentiles but well its the roman empire. they didn't just sell to the themselves. Jerusalem was called the richest city in the empire and revalation says they traded with the world. and when it fell the roman merchants mourned. so it logical to assume that jews did have to serve meals to the goy and did some type of dining with them and had rules to guide them with that.

 

[Deborah13]

There are different "levels" of kashrut (being kosher). The one you're talking about is being completely rabbinicaly kosher. That involves having 3 sets of pots, pans, dishes, bowls, silverware and just about everything else in the kitchen, eating only meat that has been slaughtered in a specific way and many other things. I read somewhere that the rabbis themselves say that the most complicated section of the law is the dietary rules, followed closely by the Sabbath. I don't even try to be rabbinicaly kosher. I do, however, eat biblically kosher food. If we stick to the Bible, then the rules are simple, both for food and the Sabbath, and anyone should be able to follow those rules without any extra expense.

Kashrut:

• Of four-footed animals, eat only those that have cloven hooves and chew their cud
• Of things from the sea or fresh water, eat only that which has scales and fins
• Concerning birds, there is a list of the ones we may not eat, most of which are birds of prey (which most don't eat anyway)
• Don't eat blood or meat with blood still in it (This one was given to Noah and is repeated in Acts 15)
• Don't eat suet (the fat on the organs)
• Don't cook a kid in it's mother's milk (this one has more to do with Pagan sacrifices)

Sabbath:

• Rest
• Don't work (slightly different emphasis from the first one)
• Allow others under your supervision (family, servants, etc.) to rest
• Don't light a fire
• Keep the Sabbath holy (dedicate it to God)
• Hold a holy convocation (Sabbath go to meeting)

Not that hard at all if you don't try to keep thousands of years of tradition, interpretation and added man-made rules.

The TOG​

I think these are the ones that you see that you can do or are relevant to your life.
What of others lives. Young men and women who are married for example. What about them, the laws that affect their lives?
What about the life of the person that caused the accidental death of another person? Is the law so easy for them?

 

[Deborah13]

not that hard? really so the animals health isn't important. you would eat a sickly, poor fed animal?

the pots and pans must be clean. a pig carries parasites. that is why until a hundred years ago they were avoided imho. even now in the third world nations brain parasites that kill people are from pigs. if the bones of a pig touch a pan its unclean.why? the parasites doesn't die easily, it takes radiation to kill it. or oil fed to the pig .

thousands of years of man 's traditions

ok work? what exactly is work? if you don't think typing on the internet causes men that are saved to sin then kindly explain why it isn't?

1) a man must maintain the towers
2) the power to the lines and towers must be maintained.
3) power itself must be run and checked. somebody always will work

and what does the lord say about tempting others about sin?

besides to be kosher it must be blessed by the rabbi. otherwise its not KOSHER.a special prayer is recited by the jews over that before its eaten.

uhm yeah lighting a fire in my home? yeah that wouldn't be possible for heat. and power? even with the appliances off meters still will move. computers must be charged and also some appliances have memeries. water must be heated. so it not possible to be that less of a burden.

Jason, I have a question for you, I can't find it in scripture.
I know that only a priest could kill a sacrificial animal, they were taught how to do this with the least pain for the animal.
But what about the animals that they ate that were not sacrifices?