Growth “Keeping the Law”

[TOG]

not that hard? really so the animals health isn't important. you would eat a sickly, poor fed animal?

Maybe Florida doesn't regulate this in any way, but where I live, there are laws about these things. If you are going to raise animals, whether for food or any other purpose, there are certain laws you have to follow. A vet will visit you regularly, and if you don't follow those laws you get a warning. If you don't fix the things the vet warned you about within the time he specified, then you are closed down. If an animal makes it all the way to my plate, I have no way of knowing how it was fed, but I assume that the animal welfare laws were followed.

the pots and pans must be clean. a pig carries parasites. that is why until a hundred years ago they were avoided imho. even now in the third world nations brain parasites that kill people are from pigs. if the bones of a pig touch a pan its unclean.why? the parasites doesn't die easily, it takes radiation to kill it. or oil fed to the pig .

Just in case you missed it...

Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these:... the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. (Lev. 11:4,7 ESV)

The meat of pigs is unclean, according to the Bible. God said not to eat it. That's a much better reason than the risk of parasites.

thousands of years of man 's traditions

ok work? what exactly is work?

God gave me a brain. I am fully capable of recognizing work when I see it, and of avoiding it on the Sabbath. I don't need a rabbi to tell me what work is. Neither do you need me to tell you what work is. You should be able to figure it out for yourself.

if you don't think typing on the internet causes men that are saved to sin then kindly explain why it isn't?

1) a man must maintain the towers
2) the power to the lines and towers must be maintained.
3) power itself must be run and checked. somebody always will work

1) I'm a systems administrator and I know how this works. People don't sit around the servers maintaining them 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They are (hopefully) set up correctly to start with, and maintained (updates, patches, etc.) during regular work days. People only work on them at night and weekends when something goes wrong. My typing on the Sabbath neither increases nor decreases the likelihood of that happening.

2) Same as 1)

3) Exactly... Somebody always will work, whether I type anything or not. Therefore you can't say that my typing is forcing anybody to do anything.

4) One more thing. Are you sure that I actually typed anything on the Sabbath? Do you know when the sun set where I am? (In fact, do you know where I am?) Before you start accusing people, make sure that they actually did what you accuse them of. FYI, the sun had already set when I started typing yesterday. It had not set for you, though, when you were reading my post and replying to it. One of my teachers back in elementary school once told me that when you point a finger at someone, there are 3 pointing back at you.

and what does the lord say about tempting others about sin?

Unless you can actually show where I have tempted somebody to sin, you shouldn't make accusations like that.

besides to be kosher it must be blessed by the rabbi.

Like I said, different "levels" of kashrut. Even the rabbis have different levels. There's kosher and then there's kosher for Passover, and I think I've heard of others, but I don't remember them right off hand. But all of the rabbinic levels are based on the rabbis interpretations, which are not binding. Only God's word is binding. You can be kosher according to the Bible, without being kosher according to human traditions.

uhm yeah lighting a fire in my home? yeah that wouldn't be possible for heat. and power? even with the appliances off meters still will move. computers must be charged and also some appliances have memeries. water must be heated. so it not possible to be that less of a burden.

First of all, I don't see what computers have to do with lighting a fire. As for heating with gas, whether it's heating your home or heating water, do you light that fire? You can easily avoid lighting a fire. If someone, or sometying else (like and automated thermostat) lights a fire, then you're not the one violating the Sabbath. But if you do want to go that far, I know that some Jews don't use hot water on the Sabbath, so it is possible. But it's interesting that their reason for not using hot water isn't that it would light a fire, but because it would "cook" more cold water. (I forgot to add "Do not cook" to my list in the other post.)

The TOG​

 

[Sinthesis]

Romans 14 is essential to understanding the significance of 'law' in Christianity.

 

[TOG]

I think these are the ones that you see that you can do or are relevant to your life.
What of others lives. Young men and women who are married for example. What about them, the laws that affect their lives?
What about the life of the person that caused the accidental death of another person? Is the law so easy for them?

Just so that there's no misunderstanding, I do not believe that I have any authority to impose my interpretation of the law on anyone besides myself. Some commandments are clear, such as the commandment not to kill or not to eat pork, while other commandments, and some specific situations, require some level of interpretation. For example, the Bible says not to light a fire on the Sabbath. Fires at that time were used for cooking (which is specifically prohibited on the Sabbath), giving light and keeping warm. Today we have electric lights. Is turning on a light equal to lighting a fire, and therefore prohibited on the Sabbath? If so, what about a light that is turned on before the start of the Sabbath? Are we allowed to keep it on? There are a number of interpretations on this issue, and I cannot impose my interpretation on others. Each person has to study the Torah for himself (or herself, as the case may be), and determine how best to follow it's teachings. There will be times when it is difficult to decide what to do. I never said the whole law was easy. I ws just referring to the Sabbath and kosher food. But I know the whole law is possible, since the law itself says so (Deu. 30:11-14).

The TOG​

 

[JLB]

TOG said -

Just in case you missed it...

Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these:... the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. (Lev. 11:4,7 ESV)

The meat of pigs is unclean, according to the Bible. God said not to eat it. That's a much better reason than the risk of parasites.

Just in case you missed it, Jesus said -

18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" Mark 7:18-19

... whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him...

whatever anyone puts in there mouth to eat can not defile them. Thus purifying all foods.

Jesus purified all foods with His words of authority.

Just in case you missed what He said.


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

1) florida regulates horses and so forth,but you cant be sure that they slaughter them humanely. sometimes they don't.
2) fire places are a luxury in florida. not needed. seldom does it get that cold. water heating. yeah theres othe ways besides gas and electric.
3) im not placing myself under the mosaic law. I wont.moses also commanded one to kill certain peoples at mere sighting. that was changed. he also commanded penalties that jesus didn't really nullify. one can argue that one may repent and be saved of these and still must die:
a) fornication, adultery, lying, murder, and homosexuality, shabat, disobeying one's parents, failing to follow the feasts if they have a death penalty and all did that are listed in the bible , save two, channukah and also purim.

a church is under whom power? gods or the state when it comes to this? if its for today then we must then ask why is it ok not to execute the offender of these then for that? when did jesus change the torah to mean that it didn't include the death sentence? you have said the state of rome took the power from the jews and the church. ok since when did the state have the right to do that? if the state said its illegal to follow jesus the church didn't follow that in pauls day. why then did they not kill those breakers of the law?

 

[Deborah13]

Just so that there's no misunderstanding, I do not believe that I have any authority to impose my interpretation of the law on anyone besides myself. Some commandments are clear, such as the commandment not to kill or not to eat pork, while other commandments, and some specific situations, require some level of interpretation. For example, the Bible says not to light a fire on the Sabbath. Fires at that time were used for cooking (which is specifically prohibited on the Sabbath), giving light and keeping warm. Today we have electric lights. Is turning on a light equal to lighting a fire, and therefore prohibited on the Sabbath? If so, what about a light that is turned on before the start of the Sabbath? Are we allowed to keep it on? There are a number of interpretations on this issue, and I cannot impose my interpretation on others. Each person has to study the Torah for himself (or herself, as the case may be), and determine how best to follow it's teachings. There will be times when it is difficult to decide what to do. I never said the whole law was easy. I ws just referring to the Sabbath and kosher food. But I know the whole law is possible, since the law itself says so (Deu. 30:11-14).

The TOG​

I didn't think you trying to impose on others and for the record neither am I. Especially not when it comes to things like what food someone eats.
I just thought we discussing if the Law of Moses was something that all believers had to follow in order to live a life pleasing to God.
I can't think of any legitimate reason to have a problem whatsoever with someone following it though.
I enjoy learning about the Jewish customs, tradition, and theology. But mostly the study of the OT, always looking for our Lord Jesus in the types and shadows. It's just way cool the way God has worked everything out. It's like putting together a fascinating puzzle.

Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Blessings to you, TOG

 

[TOG]

1) florida regulates horses and so forth,but you cant be sure that they slaughter them humanely. sometimes they don't.

Exactly. You can't be sure. I just assume that the rules were followed and the animals were treated humanely while they were alive and were slaughtered humanely according to the law. This is basically the same principle taught by Paul regarding meat offered to idols. You can't tell by looking at a piece of meat whether it has been sacrificed, so assume that it hasn't and go ahead and eat it. But if you know it has been sacrificed to an idol, then don't eat it. Likewise, you can't tell how an animal was slaughtered by looking at a piece of meat, so assume it was done properly and give thanks and eat it. But if I knew that animals were treated inhumanely by a certain meat company, I wouldn't eat their products.

3) im not placing myself under the mosaic law. I wont.

Here's the way I see it. Please not that I'm not saying you have to see it this way. This is just my opinion.

To use your wording, we "place ourselves under" our civil laws. You place yourself under the state laws of Florida and the federal laws of the United States, because you live in Florida, which is one of the United States, and those are the laws that apply in your location. I place myself under the laws that apply in my location. We do this by agreeing to abaide by the law and by paying fines or accepting other punishments when we break the law. There are people here on this forum from all around the world, and they have placed themselves under the laws of their countries. When we move from one country to another, we accept a new set of laws. German laws apply in Germany, Norwegian laws apply in Norway, American laws applyl in America and Australian laws apply in Australia. Like wise, God's laws apply in God's Kingdom. When we move from the world to the Kingdom of God, we accept a new set of laws which we are expected to abide by. Since I am a citizen of God's Kingdom, I abide by His laws.

Now, suppose you would decide to totally ignore the traffic laws. You would not cease being a citizen, neither of Florida nor the US, but you might have your drivers license taken from you. Likewise, if we don't keep the Sabbath or ignore the dietary laws, we won't lose our citizenship in the Kingdom of God (i.e. our salvation), but we might miss out on the blessings God has for those who obey His laws.

moses also commanded one to kill certain peoples at mere sighting.

I must have missed that part. Can you show me where the law says that?

that was changed. he also commanded penalties that jesus didn't really nullify. one can argue that one may repent and be saved of these and still must die:
a) fornication, adultery, lying, murder, and homosexuality, shabat, disobeying one's parents, failing to follow the feasts if they have a death penalty and all did that are listed in the bible , save two, channukah and also purim.

a church is under whom power? gods or the state when it comes to this? if its for today then we must then ask why is it ok not to execute the offender of these then for that? when did jesus change the torah to mean that it didn't include the death sentence? you have said the state of rome took the power from the jews and the church. ok since when did the state have the right to do that? if the state said its illegal to follow jesus the church didn't follow that in pauls day. why then did they not kill those breakers of the law?

Many people (not necessarily you) seem to have the idea that people were supposed to stone others if they caught them doing something that carried the death penalty. That was never the case. People first had to appear before a court and have 2 or 3 witnesses testify against them. Only then could they be executed. And even if there were enough witnesses against them, they still got to tell their side of the story, and if there were mitigating circumstances, the court could impose a lesser sentence. Today we have civil and criminal courts that handle these matters. We don't have the authority to execute people. As long as we don't have that authority, and our civil laws declare these things to be legal, this is a non-issue. When Christ returns, and God's law once more becomes the law by which we are judged, then He will decide the fate of people who violate His laws.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

I didn't think you trying to impose on others and for the record neither am I.

I wasn't just referring to you. The accusation that people who follow the law are imposing it on others always comes up when this is discussed, and I wanted to make it clear that that wasn't my intention.

The TOG​

 

[jasoncran]

Exactly. You can't be sure. I just assume that the rules were followed and the animals were treated humanely while they were alive and were slaughtered humanely according to the law. This is basically the same principle taught by Paul regarding meat offered to idols. You can't tell by looking at a piece of meat whether it has been sacrificed, so assume that it hasn't and go ahead and eat it. But if you know it has been sacrificed to an idol, then don't eat it. Likewise, you can't tell how an animal was slaughtered by looking at a piece of meat, so assume it was done properly and give thanks and eat it. But if I knew that animals were treated inhumanely by a certain meat company, I wouldn't eat their products.



Here's the way I see it. Please not that I'm not saying you have to see it this way. This is just my opinion.

To use your wording, we "place ourselves under" our civil laws. You place yourself under the state laws of Florida and the federal laws of the United States, because you live in Florida, which is one of the United States, and those are the laws that apply in your location. I place myself under the laws that apply in my location. We do this by agreeing to abaide by the law and by paying fines or accepting other punishments when we break the law. There are people here on this forum from all around the world, and they have placed themselves under the laws of their countries. When we move from one country to another, we accept a new set of laws. German laws apply in Germany, Norwegian laws apply in Norway, American laws applyl in America and Australian laws apply in Australia. Like wise, God's laws apply in God's Kingdom. When we move from the world to the Kingdom of God, we accept a new set of laws which we are expected to abide by. Since I am a citizen of God's Kingdom, I abide by His laws.

Now, suppose you would decide to totally ignore the traffic laws. You would not cease being a citizen, neither of Florida nor the US, but you might have your drivers license taken from you. Likewise, if we don't keep the Sabbath or ignore the dietary laws, we won't lose our citizenship in the Kingdom of God (i.e. our salvation), but we might miss out on the blessings God has for those who obey His laws.



I must have missed that part. Can you show me where the law says that?



Many people (not necessarily you) seem to have the idea that people were supposed to stone others if they caught them doing something that carried the death penalty. That was never the case. People first had to appear before a court and have 2 or 3 witnesses testify against them. Only then could they be executed. And even if there were enough witnesses against them, they still got to tell their side of the story, and if there were mitigating circumstances, the court could impose a lesser sentence. Today we have civil and criminal courts that handle these matters. We don't have the authority to execute people. As long as we don't have that authority, and our civil laws declare these things to be legal, this is a non-issue. When Christ returns, and God's law once more becomes the law by which we are judged, then He will decide the fate of people who violate His laws.

The TOG​

I don't recall a lesser sentence for a the woman who picked branches on the shabat who was stoned. the Sanhedrin or now called the beth din in jewry do that. they don't execute. the church or gods people are under the state then?

where did you get that idea that the roman state could negate the laws of god? it always was under the witness in the case.

the judges set up by moses would determine that. besides paul nor john lists the shabat as a reason of souls being lost.

but hey here. deutermony 25:19

Therefore it shall be, when the Lord thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.

if theres an ancenstor of that he must die. not that we would ever know if he was one but that is the verse im talking about. its realistically a part of the law that has been rendered by its ancient nature obeselete.

and the same could be said about these too.
deut 20:16

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

there are possible ancestors of these nations as not all of them were killed off but merely absorbed but again one would have to prove that in order to first be able to slay them. but the point being is that part of is rendered obeselete.

on sins listed as being enough for hell fire.

romans one, galatations 5 and revalations 22. the shabat isn't listed. the bible doenst negate the idea of the shabat being ok for worship.

 

[jasoncran]

you mentioned you cant know? local slaugher houses. we have three here.we also have some that raise cows and chickens and slaughter them at their homes. I have a coworker who has done that. he takes his to a friend who charges for it. my wife has slaughtered a chicken. the method of choice by here is wringing of the neck. that is the quickest way. the chopping of the head will cause the chicken to run. her dad killed cows in his home. he also still does some of that. he caught and killed and served up a turtle. he killed that by decapitation.

 

[TOG]

where did you get that idea that the roman state could negate the laws of god?

Where did you get the idea that I got the idea that the Roman state could negate God's laws? The Romans allowed the Sanhedrin to pass the death sentence until early in the 1st century. After they changed the law, anyone taking part in an execution (stoning) ordered by the Sanhedrin would have been guilty of murder according to Roman law, and would have been executed by the Romans. This is a historical fact, and twisting my words won't change it. It was also a fulfillment of prophecy. Scripture says that the rod and staff would not depart from Judah until the Messiah (Shiloh) had come. The "rod and staff" has always been interpreted as the authority to pass the death sentence, and that was not taken away from them until after Jesus was born.

besides paul nor john lists the shabat as a reason of souls being lost.[/qutoe]

You might want to read the entire post before responding next time. I specifically stated later in that same post that not keeping the Sabbath would not lose a man his salvation.

The TOG​