1 Corinthians 14:18

[Asyncritus]

Love it, eddif! Especially:

But​

If Paul knows he can speak something he does not understand; what language is he speaking that he does not understand and what is the source?

I don't get the problem with v18.

It seems so elementary:

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

[means that by the spirit gift of tongues,when he's outside the church, he can speak n different languages. Why? Because as the apostle to the Gentiles, he would need to speak the languages of many, many different nations, to get the message across to them.]

More that you all ... [because you don't have the same job in the church that I have].

19 Yet in the church [at ecclesial meetings]I had rather speak five words with my understanding [he's keeping it simple,]

that by my voice I might teach others also [so you guys can understand what I'm on about],

than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. [rather than go babbling on in mandarin chinese, or sanskrit or coptic which means nothing to you guys]

I'd rather talk in words you guys understand, than write the britannica in something you have no clue about.

Where's the problem?

 

[JCitoL]

Ok, so I was reading 1 Corinthians 14 the other day. So I'm reading about tongues, and about how Paul wants them to all speak in tongues, but would rather then prophecy so they may build up each other etc etc. Fair enough.

But this is the part I don't get - after going on about that, in verse 18, Paul then says this: (ESV)

I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. ​

To me, it seems a bit contradictory and a tad out of place in the context of the rest of the section.

Am I missing something here?

Hi

the "tongues" are primarily the foreign languages, because (the) more important is the testimony of God's Word to be understandable on the part of the people who are interested to the faith, while the "prophesying" is the ability the Word of God to be enough well explained, because one thing is if a man can speak or write in some foreign language, while another thing if it is able to give enough right explanation(-s) about some specific subject/topic, e.g. some people can speak in foreign languages, but do not know enough a certain science(e.g. physics) and hereof/therefore (they) cannot explain its subject in/to any language

Acts 2:3-12 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?",

1 Corinthians 14:1-26 "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy(i.e. but primarily you should be able to explain the difference between the right faith and the wrong, and between the good and the evil). For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen(viz. how it will agree) at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men(i.e. be enough prudent(-ial)). In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all(i.e. it will understand that you testify only good Word), he is judged of all(i.e. and so it will be agreeably touched): And thus are the secrets of his heart made(viz. and thus the childish i.e. the kindness/goodness in it will make) manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

Blessings

 

[eddif]

Hi

Acts 2:3-12 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?",


Blessings

Now this is a new thought for me.

All those speaking in tongues on the day of pentecost had no idea what they were saying. The hearers did, but the speakers did not. At least if you take the revelation Paul received they did not till they prayed to understand. Not with an intelligent direct translation anyway. They may have had the knowledge, but Holy Spirit took that knowledge and placed it in a tongue unknown to the speakers, but known to some of the hearers.

Only when you get to Pauls teaching do you understand this is OK because the hearers were the ones that understood. The Apostles do not teach very much of the details of tongues at pentecost. The Apostles were involved, but not teaching on what happened; other than Peter comparing the Joel passage as abn explanation to what was going on. I may have missed it somewhere though.

Paul spent time alone with God to get his revelation, but did go later, to Jerusalem, to see if he was right

eddif

 

[Mitspa]

Allenwynne

I have no wish whatsoever to upset or derail your faith. If that is your opinion, then so be it.

All I can do is point out what I see the scriptures saying pretty clearly, and leave it at that. You then choose which road you will go down.

I also point out what I see are grave inconsistencies between the facts and the ideas held by many churches, such as the scriptural facts that cures and feeding of the multitudes and raising of the dead were the real effects of really possessing the gifts of the spirit.

I see nothing of this in the churches.

Furthermore, I see that almost every church I can think of, claims that the HSp is guiding the leadership. Think for instance of the catholic pope, the anglican archbishop, the jehovah's witnesses, the seventh day adventists, the pentecostals, the evangelicals and all else.

Every one of them teaches materially different doctrines to the other: and quite seriously different doctrines at that, but this is not the place to go into those just now.

They can't all be right. They can't all be guided by the same HSp. God is decidedly not the author of confusion.

So where does that leave little me?

With my inflexible rule: only scripture and its very clear guidance will do for me. As Isaiah said so long ago:

Isa 8. 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Which is why I react very vigorously (and sometimes unpleasantly) to any suggestion or implication that the Bible is NOT the Word of God, and must take precedence over all experiences.

If my behaviour or belief does not square with the Word, then too bad for my behaviour and my belief. I can tell you now that many of my beautiful theories have been shot down by an ugly scriptural fact, and have never seen the light of day.

I'm still working on my behavioural anomalies.

On the other hand, scripture, which I follow docilely wherever it may lead, has shown me many things I had not dreamed of, such as this one which tells me that the gifts of the spirit were given as a witness to the Jews.

That is not to say that the Gentiles did not benefit occasionally. Cornelius is an outstanding example, but I wish to point out that this was done as a testimony to the Jews that the Gentiles had also received the word of God - you know the passage.

So that's where I stand on the matter.

Isa.8.20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

So then its not those who have what Jesus said a "believer" would have, but those that do not have what Jesus said?

Interesting that the scriptures and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all wrong and a group of powerless folks are?

So is the whole of the episltes of Cor. invalid for gentiles? Or just parts? How about the other epistles? Is parts true and other parts untrue for gentiles? Let me guess who decides?

How about the book of James that name the 12 tribes as those to whom the letter was concerned.

Can we now just discount that whole epislte?

For some will come and teach a different Jesus and a different Spirit! we see this scripture is fulfilled today!

 

[Mitspa]

(1 Corinthians 14:18) I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
(1 Corinthians 14:19) yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Verse 19 actually says the fact that Paul is speaking about his multilingual because, he explains that he may teach others also. It is ridiculous to believe that he can teach tongues to others, while Paul Himself says it is a gift of Holy Spirit.

Hence, 1 Corinthians 14:18 is simply about Paul's multilingualism.

Also, tongue simply means a language as in Revelation 14:6.

Boy thats a stretch! And the scripture I will pray in the spirit and in my understanding also? really means he will pray is a language he understands and then in another language he understands?

Do you see how far from the truth that is? I think those who accuse others of gibberish and nosense should consider the way they attempt to handle the Word Of God.

It seems some have no fear at all?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I Corinthians 14:18-19
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


I have heard this unknown tongue thing for years, and I thought ok, yeah, right.

But​

If Paul knows he can speak something he does not understand; what language is he speaking that he does not understand and what is the source?

At the same time​

Paul knows he must speak the language of the people before him.​

So​

How would Paul with this great vast language reserve wind up not knowing what he was saying?​

Thus​

Daniel intrepreting the words on the wall sure seems to fit here. Not a carnal explanation, but a supernatural explanation.

Away from church he speaks in tongues and is edified
In church he speaks with the understanding for others sake.

If he intreprets his tongues and understands then he can go before the church and relate what he learns in private.

Then as a jerk from Mississippi I do not know the rules of logic and must be just not understanding .​

eddif​

Eddif, you are not a jerk.

You are a highly intelligent person that loves Jesus.

You should start saying "I'm that blessed person from Mississippi".

 

[eddif]

Eddif, you are not a jerk.

You are a highly intelligent person that loves Jesus.

You should start saying "I'm that blessed person from Mississippi".

Let us give God the glory. In the flesh I have trouble chewing gum and walking at the same time. LOL

eddif

 

[Asyncritus]

Now this is a new thought for me.

All those speaking in tongues on the day of pentecost had no idea what they were saying. The hearers did, but the speakers did not.

What an extraordinarily comical idea!

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven
[...]
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

So the Parthians said this 'they are full of new wine' in the Parthian language/dialect

Peter doesn't understand a word of what they say, but replies with his brain disengaged but with mouth going at a rate of knots:

"...For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day." That make any sense to anybody?

And what about later in the same chapter, talking to the same crowd,

They say (again in the Parthian language, let's suppose...)

37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

They understood what Peter was saying in the Parthian language, but he didn't understand, and was merely hearing his mouth flap!

So when they said 'What shall we do?' he didn't understand either, but blabbered away with brain disengaged and mouth moving by itself:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Can anybody see that happening? I can't.

At least if you take the revelation Paul received they did not till they prayed to understand. Not with an intelligent direct translation anyway. They may have had the knowledge, but Holy Spirit took that knowledge and placed it in a tongue unknown to the speakers, but known to some of the hearers.

Only when you get to Pauls teaching do you understand this is OK because the hearers were the ones that understood. The Apostles do not teach very much of the details of tongues at pentecost.

They didn't, because you only required half a brain to understand what was going on.

 

[Mitspa]

So some have tried to claim that the letters to the Corinthians conserning spiritual gifts, was not for the gentiles? I think a certain poster on this thread has even tried to claim that the Corinthian Church was a "jewish" church. Now I have studied the truth of scripture for many years and have never heard such a unbiblical claim! The desire of some to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and this gift is so great that they are willing to make-up almost any reason to cast doubt upon this wonderful and most important gift.

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts brothers, i would not have you to be ignorant :2 You know that when you where GENTILES, YOU were carried away with dumb idols.

Paul goes on to explain the spiritual gifts and In Chpter 14:2 states that one who speaks in a tongue DOES NOT SPEAK TO MEN but to God, for no one understands him, for he speaks in a mystery.

14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays , but my understanding is unfruitful.
14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I WILL ALSO pray with my understanding.

So we see that this gift is well defined in this epistle to the gentile church a Corinith. This is not speaking in greek and then some other language of man. This is a gift that Comes from the Spirit, apart from ones ability to understand what one is praying.

So let God be true and every man a ....

 

[eddif]

Acts 2:14
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


Peter was speaking to the men of Judaea and dwellers at Jerusalem, so I suppose he was speaking a language they all understood. It does not say he went down the line addressing each visiting group in their language.

An apostle should have known the Joel passage, and although he may not have known the languages spoken---he may have figured out what was going on.

Do not forget Jesus had breathed on them one day and said receive the Holy Spirit. In my feeble brain when the mighty rushing wind appeared they may have said (I always wondered why he breathed on us that day) LOL. Jesus had also told them about the Holy Spirit and fire (several types of fire though could be discussed).

Another thought. In my feeble brain the temple service language was probably one language. Are not even today most Jewish services held in Hebrew or their language (?)?

All the visitors I would think probably shared a language with Peter (?). Were not possibly these vistors dispersed originally from the promised land, and some were possibly bi-lingual?

I highly doubt the visitors came to Jerusalem with their Spanish, French, German, and Latin bibles expecting to worship in their language (the languages I used are a joke). I would think they came expecting to use the Hebrew (or whatever they did temple services in).

I realize that my view is different from yours. What do others think happend? I even know that when one person publishes a book with their thoughts, after 100 years a bunch of people add to the doctrine till they all believe it to be gospel. 200 selected scriptures and 5 books of commentaries are pretty hard to adequately challenge. My inteligence will never carry me through some discussions. I hopefully do not depend on me,

eddif

 

[Mitspa]

Acts 2:14
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


Peter was speaking to the men of Judaea and dwellers at Jerusalem, so I suppose he was speaking a language they all understood. It does not say he went down the line addressing each visiting group in their language.

An apostle should have known the Joel passage, and although he may not have known the languages spoken---he may have figured out what was going on.

Do not forget Jesus had breathed on them one day and said receive the Holy Spirit. In my feeble brain when the mighty rushing wind appeared they may have said (I always wondered why he breathed on us that day) LOL. Jesus had also told them about the Holy Spirit and fire (several types of fire though could be discussed).

Another thought. In my feeble brain the temple service language was probably one language. Are not even today most Jewish services held in Hebrew or their language (?)?

All the visitors I would think probably shared a language with Peter (?). Were not possibly these vistors dispersed originally from the promised land, and some were possibly bi-lingual?

I highly doubt the visitors came to Jerusalem with their Spanish, French, German, and Latin bibles expecting to worship in their language (the languages I used are a joke). I would think they came expecting to use the Hebrew (or whatever they did temple services in).

I realize that my view is different from yours. What do others think happend? I even know that when one person publishes a book with their thoughts, after 100 years a bunch of people add to the doctrine till they all believe it to be gospel. 200 selected scriptures and 5 books of commentaries are pretty hard to adequately challenge. My inteligence will never carry me through some discussions. I hopefully do not depend on me,

eddif

I must say that you have studied the gift more than I, it appears? I have not had time to read all your post on this issue eddif, But you have made the truth known to all who have "EARS TO HEAR" Alot of believers have the gift to speak and pray in the Spirit, but the ability to HEAR what The Spirit is saying, is a very important part of understanding this gift.
And you have brought that part it out, very well!
I think God made this gift just for folks like you! lol

Blessings upon the man from Miss!

 

[Asyncritus]

So some have tried to claim that the letters to the Corinthians conserning spiritual gifts, was not for the gentiles? I think a certain poster on this thread has even tried to claim that the Corinthian Church was a "jewish" church. Now I have studied the truth of scripture for many years and have never heard such a unbiblical claim!

I put up all the evidence there is in the Acts and in the letter. You have never attempted to gainsay it. So I challenge you to get off your high horse and do some work to refute that evidence.

The desire of some to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and this gift is so great that they are willing to make-up almost any reason to cast doubt upon this wonderful and most important gift.

Now you're slinging some serious-sized bricks here. I think perhaps you should delete them, because you know nothing about my desires to blaspheme the Holy Spirit or not.

In fact, you have no real idea what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I can see that from what you say.

So again, get off your high horse, answer the 4 questions I put to you, and then we can talk sensibly to each other.

Until then it's a waste of time talking to you.

 

[Asyncritus]

Acts 2:14
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Peter was speaking to the men of Judaea and dwellers at Jerusalem, so I suppose he was speaking a language they all understood. It does not say he went down the line addressing each visiting group in their language.

They didn't all understand one language which he happened to be speaking. Each one was addressed in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

I strongly suspect the Peter spoke, and the rest of the 12 dispersed thamselves into each of the language groups, translating into that language.

Note what they say:

we do hear them speak in our tongues

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

They ALL did so: so presumably each one had his own audience for translation purposes.

An apostle should have known the Joel passage, and although he may not have known the languages spoken---he may have figured out what was going on.

The apostles knew exactly what Joel had said - and thay all interpreted for the benefit of the individual groups of language speakers. Each language group probably met with others of the same grouping, so thay could talk to one another.

So now we know WHAT was said in tongues - Paul tells us in 1 Cor 14.

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

combined with

Isa. 58.1 ¶ Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

That this is indeed the case, is shown by:

Acts 2. 37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

The heard about their sins, and were convicted in their hearts by the words just spoken and translated for the benefit of their particular groups.

Now we also know what interpreters did. They weren't babbling foolishly into the air, pretending they were doing something they really weren't.

(Just BTW, one of my friends went into one of these meetings, and being a very learned man, recited some of Homer in the original as an experiment. You can imagine his amazement when he received an 'intepretation' which told him about his health and future prospects!)

The apostles were interpreting Peter's words into the languages of the 16 language groups present at the time.

Every hearer understood them perfectly well, and said so:

v8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

So the interpreter's function was a vital one - because those translators translated powerfully, and convincingly.

So Paul says:

1 Cor.14. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

How could Paul possibly say that the Corinthians prophesied?

Because they spoke the words of the prophet (in Hebrew), which to most of them would be a foreign language, and when they INTERPRETED the prophecy, they were effectively prophesying.

And that prophecy wasn't 'you'll meet a tall dark, handsome man', or your circumstances will improve if you apply yourself to your job diligently'. No, the speaker would be 'showing the house of Jacob and Israel their sins and their transgressions' as per Isa 58.1.

This was not a farce - it was a deadly serious happening, aimed by God at the unbelieving and unlearned JEWS who walked in and said (as at Pentecost) that the members of the church were either mad or drunken.

Now have a good look at 1 Cor 14 in the light of those comments,and see for yourself the truth of what I'm saying.

 

[Mitspa]

I put up all the evidence there is in the Acts and in the letter. You have never attempted to gainsay it. So I challenge you to get off your high horse and do some work to refute that evidence.

Now you're slinging some serious-sized bricks here. I think perhaps you should delete them, because you know nothing about my desires to blaspheme the Holy Spirit or not.

In fact, you have no real idea what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I can see that from what you say.

So again, get off your high horse, answer the 4 questions I put to you, and then we can talk sensibly to each other.

Until then it's a waste of time talking to you.

I do not hold that you are the one who decides what questions are asked and answered! The fact that the Corinitian Chruch was a gentile church in IN GREECE and that it body was made up of mostly gentile believers is such common knowledge that it amazed me when I seen you attempt to make such a claim! The gentile condition of the church is mentioned throughout both epistles to the church. As well as extra-biblical writtings and historical facts from the time. NO SERIOUS biblical student would ever attempt to make such a claim! Even Paul when he starts the discussion of spiritual gifts in chapter 12 SAYS THIS VERY THING. " when you where gentiles" you followed after dumb idols.

So the question in my mind is why would someone dispise the Spirit and this gift so much as to make such a claim? It seems all your points about the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, are based upon this false statment! Your doctrines and your points are exposed and must yield now, to the truth!

This desire in some to bring shame upon this wonderful gift and The Holy Spirit, is so great that it blinds many to the clear biblical and evident truth of scripture. The FACT that the Corinthain chruch was a gentile church is not and cannot be debated! So all should ask why one would make such a claim?

 

[Mitspa]

So some have tried to claim that the letters to the Corinthians conserning spiritual gifts, was not for the gentiles? I think a certain poster on this thread has even tried to claim that the Corinthian Church was a "jewish" church. Now I have studied the truth of scripture for many years and have never heard such a unbiblical claim! The desire of some to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and this gift is so great that they are willing to make-up almost any reason to cast doubt upon this wonderful and most important gift.

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts brothers, i would not have you to be ignorant :2 You know that when you where GENTILES, YOU were carried away with dumb idols.

Paul goes on to explain the spiritual gifts and In Chpter 14:2 states that one who speaks in a tongue DOES NOT SPEAK TO MEN but to God, for no one understands him, for he speaks in a mystery.

14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays , but my understanding is unfruitful.
14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I WILL ALSO pray with my understanding.

So we see that this gift is well defined in this epistle to the gentile church a Corinith. This is not speaking in greek and then some other language of man. This is a gift that Comes from the Spirit, apart from ones ability to understand what one is praying.

So let God be true and every man a ....

I thought I would bring this post back because it defeats both attempts by some to confuse the issue!

Also I noticed that in the Greek Paul says that he will pray in the spirit, and pray in his "understanding" also?

The word he uses for "understanding" is the Greek word for MIND? one could read the scripture to say, I will pray with my spirit and I will pray with my" mind" also.

I do think undertanding gives more "understanding" lol

Agin i find it hard to understand how some can read these few chapters and come away with some of what has been said on this thread?

Its SUPERNATURAL! the desire some have to speak and teach against this Gift of God!

 

[eddif]

Ok, so I was reading 1 Corinthians 14 the other day. So I'm reading about tongues, and about how Paul wants them to all speak in tongues, but would rather then prophecy so they may build up each other etc etc. Fair enough.

But this is the part I don't get - after going on about that, in verse 18, Paul then says this: (ESV)

I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
​

To me, it seems a bit contradictory and a tad out of place in the context of the rest of the section.

Am I missing something here?

I have helped totally get us off track. They were doing pretty good way back when. jasoncran had made mostly the point needed.

I think the four questions have been answered by Deborah 13. She might have used John 9:22 to support one answer, but she is in charge of her answers.

Mitspa tried to just return to the OPs direction of thought, and did not answer.

I feel progress was made, but at this point.............?

Maybe we should look forward to spring vacation. LOL

eddif

 

[Asyncritus]

I do not hold that you are the one who decides what questions are asked and answered! The fact that the Corinitian Chruch was a gentile church in IN GREECE and that it body was made up of mostly gentile believers is such common knowledge that it amazed me when I seen you attempt to make such a claim!

You must know that in all major cities there are synagogues, made up nearly entirely of Jews, with a smattering of Gentile proselytes.

Corinth's synagogue was just like that and the Gentiles were always more prepared to hear the word than the Jews. So we have:

1 Cor 18. 5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

So because the Jews were intransigent, he went to the Gentiles.

But he didn't go far!

7 ¶ And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man’s house, named Justus, one that worshipped God (= a Gentile proselyte), whose house joined hard to the synagogue. (i.e. next door to the synagogue)!

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

So if the ruler of the synagogue became a Christian - what was he?
Answer, a Jew.

It says 'and all his house'. What were they? Jews.

That was the pattern - and 'many of the Corinthians' means 'many of the Corinthian Jews, members of the synagogue' believed and were baptized. So the ecclesia, so far, is full of Jews, though as I say, there were some Gentile proselytes too.

But not only Crispus was baptized and left the synagogue to go next door. We have:

1 Cor. 1: 1 ¶ Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother...

Who was Sosthenes?

17 Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat.

So 2 chief rulers of the synagogue became Christians and you can be certain that if the leaders of the synagogue left, they would take some Jewish followers with them too.

So based on the information we have, the majority of converts in Corinth were Jewish.

Titus Justus, in whose house the meetings were held is obviously a Roman, judging by his name - so there were some Gentiles there too - but the whole tone of the letter is basically to Jews.

Here's an example, but I'm sure you will find the others if you will but look at the letter carefully:

1 Cor 10.1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

Whose fathers were under the cloud and passed through the (Red) sea?

The Jewish fathers - not the Gentile ones.

So as I keep saying, forget those 'scholars' you seem to read, and read the text itself. Saves you from many mistakes.

The gentile condition of the church is mentioned throughout both epistles to the church. As well as extra-biblical writtings and historical facts from the time. NO SERIOUS biblical student would ever attempt to make such a claim!

Then they must be stupid or blind. You choose.

Even Paul when he starts the discussion of spiritual gifts in chapter 12 SAYS THIS VERY THING. " when you where gentiles" you followed after dumb idols.

As I said before, there were SOME Gentiles in the church, and clearly this piece of the letter is addressed to them - but it is only a piece. The rest of the letter is jewish in its content. Go look at it for yourself, rather than through these guys' spectacles.

So the question in my mind is why would someone dispise the Spirit and this gift so much as to make such a claim? It seems all your points about the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, are based upon this false statment! Your doctrines and your points are exposed and must yield now, to the truth!

You haven't checked the points, and are in no position to judge. Go check, then get back to me.

The FACT that the Corinthain church was a gentile church is not and cannot be debated! So all should ask why one would make such a claim?

I am debating it - so it can be debated. Now go read the evidence and come back to me. Start with my list of points in the first post I made on this subject. You'll find all the passages I could find on the subject there - and there are quite a few.

Unless, of course, you're scared to open your eyes, because you may see something you don't want to see...

Don't be among those who have eyes and see not; ears, and hear not.

That's a bad position to be in.

 

[Mitspa]

You must know that in all major cities there are synagogues, made up nearly entirely of Jews, with a smattering of Gentile proselytes.

Corinth's synagogue was just like that and the Gentiles were always more prepared to hear the word than the Jews. So we have:

1 Cor 18. 5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

So because the Jews were intransigent, he went to the Gentiles.

But he didn't go far!

7 ¶ And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man’s house, named Justus, one that worshipped God (= a Gentile proselyte), whose house joined hard to the synagogue. (i.e. next door to the synagogue)!

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

So if the ruler of the synagogue became a Christian - what was he?
Answer, a Jew.

It says 'and all his house'. What were they? Jews.

That was the pattern - and 'many of the Corinthians' means 'many of the Corinthian Jews, members of the synagogue' believed and were baptized. So the ecclesia, so far, is full of Jews, though as I say, there were some Gentile proselytes too.

But not only Crispus was baptized and left the synagogue to go next door. We have:

1 Cor. 1: 1 ¶ Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother...

Who was Sosthenes?

17 Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat.

So 2 chief rulers of the synagogue became Christians and you can be certain that if the leaders of the synagogue left, they would take some Jewish followers with them too.

So based on the information we have, the majority of converts in Corinth were Jewish.

Titus Justus, in whose house the meetings were held is obviously a Roman, judging by his name - so there were some Gentiles there too - but the whole tone of the letter is basically to Jews.

Here's an example, but I'm sure you will find the others if you will but look at the letter carefully:

1 Cor 10.1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

Whose fathers were under the cloud and passed through the (Red) sea?

The Jewish fathers - not the Gentile ones.

So as I keep saying, forget those 'scholars' you seem to read, and read the text itself. Saves you from many mistakes.



Then they must be stupid or blind. You choose.



As I said before, there were SOME Gentiles in the church, and clearly this piece of the letter is addressed to them - but it is only a piece. The rest of the letter is jewish in its content. Go look at it for yourself, rather than through these guys' spectacles.



You haven't checked the points, and are in no position to judge. Go check, then get back to me.



I am debating it - so it can be debated. Now go read the evidence and come back to me. Start with my list of points in the first post I made on this subject. You'll find all the passages I could find on the subject there - and there are quite a few.

Unless, of course, you're scared to open your eyes, because you may see something you don't want to see...

Don't be among those who have eyes and see not; ears, and hear not.

That's a bad position to be in.

So I see you have yielded somewhat from your early position that This church was a jewish group of believers? You have now allowed a few gentiles? I never took the position that Jews was not in the assembly, but that it was seen as true church? where there is not Jew nor Greek but ALL ARE CHRIST. The very heart of your points are defeated in clear scripture, as seen throughout the New Testament. How many times is it stated THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW AND GREEK? besides all that, If one gentile was granted the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, it defeats your whole false doctrine!
But the FACT that Paul starts out the converstaion in Ch 12, adressing the issue of to whom he spoke? GENTILES! makes your whole house of cards fall! You have been proved to be in great error, now will you act in Christian humility and repent of your false doctrines? God is not mocked, evey man will give account for how he handles the Word of truth.

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

It also mentioned a synagogue. IMHO, always look at the behavior and revelation to decide what a church or synagogue is or is not.

This is a Revelation church next (I know it is books away).

Revelation 2:8-9 (this is revealed by Jesus)
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

But in order to be fair, let us look at what seems to be a gentile influence in churches that can be a bad influence on Israel.

Revelation 2:14
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Jews can sin, Gentiles can sin; all fall short of the glory of God.

Spirituals are gifts to help identify what is going on and to help correct individuals and whole churches. John in Revelation tells of Jesus speaking to the Churches. In my feeble mind, supernaturally, and not with common knowledge. There are spots where common knowledge is accepted, but there are times of supernatural speakings.

I guess I am into: angels, Holy Spirit, etc Not overmuch, I hope, but I see the spiritual side in scripture.

Acts 13:1-3
1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

This does not seem to be the OT casting of lots (carried right up to pentecost), but the NT prophets and teachers operating in the spirituals.

Peace to all.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Acts 15:32
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them

Just in case we need a statement of prophets listed as prophets by name.

eddif