1 Corinthians 14:18

[WIP]

Let's keep our discussion on the topic and not on each other. I suspect none of us is qualified to judge another.

 

[Osgiliath]

So some have tried to claim that the letters to the Corinthians conserning spiritual gifts, was not for the gentiles? I think a certain poster on this thread has even tried to claim that the Corinthian Church was a "jewish" church. Now I have studied the truth of scripture for many years and have never heard such a unbiblical claim! The desire of some to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and this gift is so great that they are willing to make-up almost any reason to cast doubt upon this wonderful and most important gift.

1 Cor 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts brothers, i would not have you to be ignorant :2 You know that when you where GENTILES, YOU were carried away with dumb idols.

Paul goes on to explain the spiritual gifts and In Chpter 14:2 states that one who speaks in a tongue DOES NOT SPEAK TO MEN but to God, for no one understands him, for he speaks in a mystery.

14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays , but my understanding is unfruitful.
14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I WILL ALSO pray with my understanding.

So we see that this gift is well defined in this epistle to the gentile church a Corinith. This is not speaking in greek and then some other language of man. This is a gift that Comes from the Spirit, apart from ones ability to understand what one is praying.

So let God be true and every man a ....

The word 'unknown,' is nowhere to be found in the original language in 1 Corinthians chapter 14. It does not appear in the original and is always in italics in the Bibles which have the italics to let the reader know that this word was not in the original.

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue."


Do you see that word 'unknown?' It is in brackets because it was not in the original Greek.

What are referred to as 'unknown tongues,' by zealous "babes in Christ," are but a very poor counterfeit of a real experience that was given to many on the day of Pentecost as needed as "a sign to unbelievers." I have yet to witness a true 'tongue' being spoken by someone with no training in that tongue.

As many millions of times this is supposed to be taking place all around the globe, it should be and incredibly easy thing to video a person who has no training in say, Spanish, speaking fluent Spanish. Why has this never been done? Many Pentecostal meetings have been recorded for the entire world to see. Never once are they given the ability to "speak the wonderful works of God in their own tongue," as was experienced on the Day of Pentecost.

So what it all boils down to is that this mainstream experience called 'speaking in unknown tongues' is in reality a doctrine of demons. It is a poor counterfeit of a real gift that once was widespread in God's church but is no longer being witnessed as it was on the Day of Pentecost, at Cornelius' house and subsequently. Every time tongues are mentioned in the Word, you can rest assured that they fulfilled their purpose of being a sign to unbelievers.

Unknown tongues are a sign to no one. They deceive and puff up the participants and give them a false sense of superiority over those who have not yet "received their gift." This so-called 'Unknown Tongues' will always retard the spiritual growth of its adherents. The reason for this is that if one cannot perceive a false spirit coming out of ones own mouth, how can one hope to perceive a false doctrine coming out of the mouth of some other false teacher. It cannot be done! Anyone believing in this most obvious false doctrine is vulnerable to many other false doctrines, which is exceedingly evident in this forum.

 

[Mitspa]

The word 'unknown,' is nowhere to be found in the original language in 1 Corinthians chapter 14. It does not appear in the original and is always in italics in the Bibles which have the italics to let the reader know that this word was not in the original.

1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an [unknown] tongue."


Do you see that word 'unknown?' It is in brackets because it was not in the original Greek.

What are referred to as 'unknown tongues,' by zealous "babes in Christ," are but a very poor counterfeit of a real experience that was given to many on the day of Pentecost as needed as "a sign to unbelievers." I have yet to witness a true 'tongue' being spoken by someone with no training in that tongue.

As many millions of times this is supposed to be taking place all around the globe, it should be and incredibly easy thing to video a person who has no training in say, Spanish, speaking fluent Spanish. Why has this never been done? Many Pentecostal meetings have been recorded for the entire world to see. Never once are they given the ability to "speak the wonderful works of God in their own tongue," as was experienced on the Day of Pentecost.

So what it all boils down to is that this mainstream experience called 'speaking in unknown tongues' is in reality a doctrine of demons. It is a poor counterfeit of a real gift that once was widespread in God's church but is no longer being witnessed as it was on the Day of Pentecost, at Cornelius' house and subsequently. Every time tongues are mentioned in the Word, you can rest assured that they fulfilled their purpose of being a sign to unbelievers.

Unknown tongues are a sign to no one. They deceive and puff up the participants and give them a false sense of superiority over those who have not yet "received their gift." This so-called 'Unknown Tongues' will always retard the spiritual growth of its adherents. The reason for this is that if one cannot perceive a false spirit coming out of ones own mouth, how can one hope to perceive a false doctrine coming out of the mouth of some other false teacher. It cannot be done! Anyone believing in this most obvious false doctrine is vulnerable to many other false doctrines, which is exceedingly evident in this forum.

Well the scriptures say a very different thing! You are allowed your opinion but its just your opinion! I and others have the scriptures and the Gifts Of the Holy Spirit.


Who is puffed up but those who reject the clear and evident truth of scripture?

 

[Osgiliath]

Well the scriptures say a very different thing! You are allowed your opinion but its just your opinion! I and others have the scriptures and the Gifts Of the Holy Spirit.


Who is puffed up but those who reject the clear and evident truth of scripture?

Just be careful Mitspa. There's a lot of garbage out there with regard to the subject of "tongues." What I've posted is not an opinion, it's concrete evidence from the real world in which we live. Also, the word "unknown" is "unknown" in the Greek (it's not there), so just BEWARE! Remember, Mystery Babylon is subtle and seductive, and it has made many fools out of otherwise intelligent men.

 

[Mitspa]

Just be careful Mitspa. There's a lot of garbage out there with regard to the subject of "tongues." What I've posted is not an opinion, it's concrete evidence from the real world in which we live. Also, the word "unknown" is "unknown" in the Greek (it's not there), so just BEWARE! Remember, Mystery Babylon is subtle and seductive, and it has made many fools out of otherwise intelligent men.

No you posted your opinion! I know the Holy Spirit and I know what the scriptures clearly describes as the gifts of the Holy Spirit. If one does not know the Holy Spirit that dwells within them? They have bigger issues than what some are doing here or there? I cannot speak to what others have or what others dont have, im sure satan has a false gift for every real gift of the Spirit! But that does not change the clear and evident truth of scripture, and The fact of the Gifts that the Holy Spirit gives these strange gifts, that man has such a hard time accepting! So to just make a statment that this gift is not real and present is to first deny clear scripture! CLEAR SCRIPTURE! These signs will follow those who believe! Jesus said this! JESUS! so let God be true, and every man untrue.

 

[eddif]

I Peter 1:8-12
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. ...

Now this is an interesting passage to look into. A bunch of prophets not knowing the concepts they are speaking about. I guess in eternity they will know. We know now through their willingness to present what they did not understand (?).

To me this is not far from the concept of not known words that you have to intrepret. Again I think post EDIT 25 might relate to our topic at hand.

eddif

 

[Osgiliath]

No you posted your opinion! I know the Holy Spirit and I know what the scriptures clearly describes as the gifts of the Holy Spirit. If one does not know the Holy Spirit that dwells within them? They have bigger issues than what some are doing here or there? I cannot speak to what others have or what others dont have, im sure satan has a false gift for every real gift of the Spirit! But that does not change the clear and evident truth of scripture, and The fact of the Gifts that the Holy Spirit gives these strange gifts, that man has such a hard time accepting! So to just make a statment that this gift is not real and present is to first deny clear scripture! CLEAR SCRIPTURE! These signs will follow those who believe! Jesus said this! JESUS! so let God be true, and every man untrue.

Okay then. Just make sure your "gifts" don't come from "another spirit." There are no such thing as "unknown" tongues in the Word of God. The word "unknown" was ADDED by the translators and is not in the Greek, as I have shown in post #152. To say otherwise is misleading to other members in this forum, and is a misrepresentation of Scripture!

 

[Mitspa]

This thread was doing fine just sitting there, and then I came along and made comments.

How about going to the Old Testament and get into tongues and interpretation. After all you do not hear the tongues and interpretation conversation in Romans or Hebrews, because those people knew about it from OT scripture. It is only the Gentiles that had to be educated about spiritual gifts. Jewish folks knew about spiritual gifts from their scriptures. Only prophets usually practiced the Gifts, but they were mentioned.

Daniel lived in Babylon with all the wisdom folks that Nebuchadnezzar could get together. All the nations wisdom could not reveal a dream. I am using Daniel 2 passage just to show the known wisdom was collected in the land.

Daniel 2:28
27 Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

Later King Belshazzar (son of Nebuchadnezzar) was drinking from the Jewish vessels and a hand wrote in the plaster of the wall.

Daniel 5:25
25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.

Daniel 5:8
8 Then came in all the king’s wise men: but they could not read the writing, nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof.

Daniel could intrepret however.

All the wise men of known languages could not read the message on the wall. Daniel had prayed for the first dream and intrepretation and I suppose this later time was supernatural also (remember the first dream and information was supernatural).

The point of all this is: there will come times in our lives that we will need information way past our natural knowledge. Tongues plus intrepretation gives the equal of prophecy (you can prophesy without tongues, but it needs to be supernatural).

IMHO it is possible that tongues can be the means of developing the faith to give a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom to meet a persons need in life. I am a feller from Mississippi. Either we believe in the Jewish Jesus practicing word of knowledge, word of wisdom, healings etc or we do not. And, we have Paul in I Corinthians 14:23-25
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Paul was the Jewish teacher with the Gentiles, and needed to be the person establishing the Gentile understanding of God's spiritual gifts first shown to the Jews through Moses and the prophets (?). I guess he did thank God he spoke in tongues more than they all---He needed to know what he was going to teach.

I think today we need the same power operating in our lives to teach others. The wittnesses are empowered by the Holy Spirit. The Gentiles have had almost 2000 years to build traditions that the gifts were just for a season. Why was Paul teaching them what to do if it were passing away.

Let sin be taught to bring about repentance and establish a need for Jesus
Let Jesus be taught so we will believe in His work for eternal life (salvation)
Let the empowerment of the Holy Spirit be taught so we might teach all things.

eddif

I see part of what you say eddif! I dont know If that is good or bad? lol

Consider Hannah who prayed in her" heart" and her lips wavered but HER voice was not heard. Therefore Eli THOUGHT SHE WAS DRUNK! and said put away your wine.
She said i am a Woman sorrowful of SPIRIT, I HAVE NOT DRUNK STRONG WINE, but have POURED OUT my soul unto the Lord.

She said let me find GRACE in your sight! and from that prayer she gave birth to Samuel "heard of God" THE PHOPHET!

i see the gift here! others may not? But i see the gift throughout the Old Testament!

 

[Mitspa]

Okay then. Just make sure your "gifts" don't come from "another spirit." There are no such thing as "unknown" tongues in the Word of God. The word "unknown" was ADDED by the translators and is not in the Greek, as I have shown in post #152. To say otherwise is misleading to other members in this forum, and is a misrepresentation of Scripture!

I dont think no one has used that word but you? I know the word "unknown" tongue has no bearing on any point that I have made in scripture. The fact that Paul says he prays in the spirit, APART FROM HIS UNDERSTANDING, has a whole lot to do with the truth of this gift. It also speaks to biggest issue many have with this gift? That is sounds like drunks!

Its a mystery! with stammering lips! I agree to the natural mind it sounds foolish. But we must become as fools to be made wise. That means we have to stop trying to limit God to the box of our own minds.

 

[reba]

Hi guys !

 

[Mitspa]

I have nightmares about that little girl! lol I am trying to behave?

 

[Agape]

I see part of what you say eddif! I dont know If that is good or bad? lol

Consider Hannah who prayed in her" heart" and her lips wavered but HER voice was not heard. Therefore Eli THOUGHT SHE WAS DRUNK! and said put away your wine.
She said i am a Woman sorrowful of SPIRIT, I HAVE NOT DRUNK STRONG WINE, but have POURED OUT my soul unto the Lord.

She said let me find GRACE in your sight! and from that prayer she gave birth to Samuel "heard of God" THE PHOPHET!

i see the gift here! others may not? But i see the gift throughout the Old Testament!

Jesus taught us how we are to pray, why do otherwise?
In Matthew 6:7, the Lord said that we should NOT use vain repetitions as the heathen do. In Greek "vain repetitions" is translated by the word battalogeo (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Sear...cfm?type=getTopic&Topic=Repetitions+(Use+Vain)). Logeo means "to speak" and the prefix "batta" is a figure of speech called an onomatopoeia. So the rendering of the Sinaitic Syriac is "Do not be saying battalatha".
How do you reconcile the Lord's warning against vain repetitions with prayers in unknown tongue? Precisely how would one who prays in tongue know they are not saying battalatha or vain repetitions if they don't even know what they are saying? Can you resolve this paradox?

 

[Mitspa]

Jesus taught us how we are to pray, why do otherwise?
In Matthew 6:7, the Lord said that we should NOT use vain repetitions as the heathen do. In Greek "vain repetitions" is translated by the word battalogeo (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Sear...cfm?type=getTopic&Topic=Repetitions+(Use+Vain)). Logeo means "to speak" and the prefix "batta" is a figure of speech called an onomatopoeia. So the rendering of the Sinaitic Syriac is "Do not be saying battalatha".
How do you reconcile the Lord's warning against vain repetitions with prayers in unknown tongue? Precisely how would one who prays in tongue know they are not saying battalatha or vain repetitions if they don't even know what they are saying? Can you resolve this paradox?

So Paul was praying vain repetitions? The Holy Spirit gives a gift that goes against the teachings of Jesus?

Paul said "I pray in vain repetitions more than you all" ???

No! 1 Cor 14:2 For he that speaketh in an tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: For NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH HIM, howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14:16 when thou bless with the spirit, how can the ignorant say Amen? and at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
14:17 FOR THOU VERILY GIVEST THANKS WELL, but the other is not edified.

So maybe you do not understand that this gift of THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, IS NOT VAIN REPITITIONS, but in fact a great a mighty glorification of God!

Could it be that because some of you do not have this Gift, that you are willing to ignore all reason of scripture? LOVE is greater, but love does not ignore the clear and evident truth of the scriptures.

 

[Deborah13]

Jesus taught us how we are to pray, why do otherwise?
In Matthew 6:7, the Lord said that we should NOT use vain repetitions as the heathen do. In Greek "vain repetitions" is translated by the word battalogeo (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Sear...cfm?type=getTopic&Topic=Repetitions+(Use+Vain)). Logeo means "to speak" and the prefix "batta" is a figure of speech called an onomatopoeia. So the rendering of the Sinaitic Syriac is "Do not be saying battalatha".
How do you reconcile the Lord's warning against vain repetitions with prayers in unknown tongue? Precisely how would one who prays in tongue know they are not saying battalatha or vain repetitions if they don't even know what they are saying? Can you resolve this paradox?

Vain repetitions are just the repetious, repeating the same thing over and over, and example would be chanting over and over.
I think one would know if they were repeating the same thing over and over no matter what language it was in??

I don't speak Greek but I know if I say agape over and over I am saying the same word over and over.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Jesus taught us how we are to pray, why do otherwise?
In Matthew 6:7, the Lord said that we should NOT use vain repetitions as the heathen do. In Greek "vain repetitions" is translated by the word battalogeo (http://www.blueletterbible.org/Sear...cfm?type=getTopic&Topic=Repetitions+(Use+Vain)). Logeo means "to speak" and the prefix "batta" is a figure of speech called an onomatopoeia. So the rendering of the Sinaitic Syriac is "Do not be saying battalatha".
How do you reconcile the Lord's warning against vain repetitions with prayers in unknown tongue? Precisely how would one who prays in tongue know they are not saying battalatha or vain repetitions if they don't even know what they are saying? Can you resolve this paradox?

I know. I went to a Pentacostal church when I was about 13 or 14 years old. There was this kid about the same age I was, who was standing about two rows behind me. He said, "Shumalalumalashumala . . . shumalalumalashumala . . . shumalalumalashumala . . ."

In other words, he wasn't saying anything. It was sad to see, let me tell ya.

 

[eddif]

I think mantra is a word that comes to mind (repeated over and over). It is however in other religions and not discussed in the bible. The bible does discuss pagan things pagans do at times.

Mantras are outside of my knowledge base, and I plan to keep it that way.

eddif

 

[Mitspa]

I know. I went to a Pentacostal church when I was about 13 or 14 years old. There was this kid about the same age I was, who was standing about two rows behind me. He said, "Shumalalumalashumala . . . shumalalumalashumala . . . shumalalumalashumala . . ."

In other words, he wasn't saying anything. It was sad to see, let me tell ya.

So now the bible is not true, because you heard a kid say something you did not understand?

Funny how you can remember the exact words this kids said, after all these years?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

So now the bible is not true, because you heard a kid say something you did not understand?

On the contrary, Matthew 6:7 rings more true than ever.

Funny how you can remember the exact words this kids said, after all these years?

Yes, I remember every embarrassing syllable of it.

You see, he had a brother who was only about a year or two older than him. On that particular night, they were performing whole-body baptisms(clothes and all). The older brother went up there to be dunked by the preacher. Before he was submerged he said something like, "I know that I was baptized when I was a little boy, but I really didn't fully understand the true meaning of it. That's why I am getting re-baptized tonight." You could tell that he was very well-accepted by the youth and perhaps the adults of the congregation as well. His brother started spouting his gibberish later on in the service. The poor fella was most certainly trying to muster up some attention for himself, ever-shadowed by his brother's charisma.

I figured all this out in one church service. It was obvious.

 

[eddif]

I see part of what you say eddif! I dont know If that is good or bad? lol

Consider Hannah who prayed in her" heart" and her lips wavered but HER voice was not heard. Therefore Eli THOUGHT SHE WAS DRUNK! and said put away your wine.
She said i am a Woman sorrowful of SPIRIT, I HAVE NOT DRUNK STRONG WINE, but have POURED OUT my soul unto the Lord.

She said let me find GRACE in your sight! and from that prayer she gave birth to Samuel "heard of God" THE PHOPHET!

i see the gift here! others may not? But i see the gift throughout the Old Testament!

I ran two times Daniel did intrepretations together. I was trying to save space and created some confusion. The final deal was this. All the wise men could not read the writing on the wall (the folks that knew languages and wisdom of the world). Daniel was the only one who could intrepret the writing (supernaturally). This is the only place I know in the OT that comes close to being equal to tongues and intrepretation.

Daniel gave the meaning. If we speak in tongues we are told to pray to intrepret. Somehow the commandment seems to have been lost to the modern church and folks just speak in tongues and do not seek to know what is said. If you by faith speak in tongues---you should by faith pray to intrepret (or be real quiet in praying in your tongue). That lack of following instructions has caused a lot of the problems we are discussing. I suggest stay in your closet till you know what you are saying (if no one intreprets after two or three words) . People just flat sin (even those with spirituals). Peter withdrew from felowship with the gentiles (after a God given vision and supernatural information from visitors and all that happened in the gentiles home).

We do not want to throw out tongues because of problems (we want to solve the problems). We do not want to throw away sinners without solving problems (some problems are solved with compassion, and other problems are solved with fear / tough love).

We have lost the ability to know how to understand judgement (but that would confuse our already clouded discussion). Maybe I should go do a blog on judgement (it took me years to get the little I understand now, and blew my mind when it opened).

I might ought to go do a blog on tongues over to the side. You could either accept or just ignore. What do others think?

May we all receive the mind of Christ in all this.

eddif

 

[reba]

Getting personal guys...