1 Corinthians 8:6 and The Holy Trinity

[Free]

Trinitarian formula

Some of the Church Fathers testified that Matthew wrote his gospel in Hebrew. The Trinitarian formula does not appear in the Shem-Tob Hebrew manuscript of Matthew. This Hebrew manuscript does not seem to have been copied from the Greek or Latin either. The omission of the command to baptize and the Trinitarian formula in the Shem-Tob manuscript contributes to the conclusion that the Trinitarian formula did not exist in the original manuscript of Matthew, but was a later addition.

Also:
In the fourth century, a group called the “Pneumatomacki,” who resisted recognizing “the Holy Spirit” as the third person of the Trinity, apparently used a text of Matthew that did not have the Trinitarian formula.

It is known that after the time of Emperor Theodosius (346-395), that writings that did not agree with the official position of the Catholic Church were to be sought out and destroyed.

The teaching of a Trinitarian formula word be something new in Orthodox Judaism, and there is no examples of Christ teaching the Apostles any such thing.

All of the New Testament teaches baptism in the name of Christ. The only place that teaches a different baptism is Matthew 28:19.

So the bottom line is this; there were bible text after the fourth century that did not have the Trinitarian formula.

Pneumatomachi, so called by the Catholics.
The Pneumatomachi, also known as Macedonians or Semi-Arians in Constantinople and the Tropici in Alexandria, were an anti-Nicene Creed sect which flourished in the regions adjacent to the Hellespont during the latter half of the fourth, and the beginning of the fifth centuries. They denied the godhood of the Holy Ghost, hence the Greek name Pneumatomachi or 'Combators against the Spirit'.

What they denied was the Holy Spirit being a third person of a Trinity. Holy Spirit is a title for Yahwah whom is a Holy Spirit.

All of that is very questionable and debatable, and scholars do debate it. There are some problems with believing that Matthew first wrote in Hebrew, as well as presuming that the Hebrew manuscript that does exist even agrees with the original autograph, regardless of the language.

Not that it matters, since the Holy Spirit is clearly not simply a title for Yahweh, but a "person" distinct from both the Father and the Son, as can be seen throughout the NT.

 

[Randy]

Well we can show the Fathers declarations in which He alone states His Spirit. Jesus does speak of that Spirit as another. So that is not assumed nor mistaken that is the Fathers Spirit per His statements. Regardless if you see the Spirit as a distinct person.
Zech 4:6
So he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty
The Fathers Promise -In the last days I will pour out My Spirit.....Acts 2:17
And while the Spirit is in believers its stated our fellowship is with the Father and Christ Jesus.
Matt 12:18
“Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Nothing in regard to a person such as God the Spirit
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Doesn't appear to be any ownership associated with the Spirit either. Otherwise the Spirit would take from what is His.
John 16:14-15
He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.
Jesus didn't pray to the Holy Spirit nor teach others to ask Him anything and though Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit Jesus didn't call the Spirit His Father.

Your spirit is not another person from you but it is spoken of how it knows your thoughts.
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (Not God the Spirit)

 

[CherubRam]

Well we can show the Fathers declarations in which He alone states His Spirit. Jesus does speak of that Spirit as another. So that is not assumed nor mistaken that is the Fathers Spirit per His statements. Regardless if you see the Spirit as a distinct person.
Zech 4:6
So he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty
The Fathers Promise -In the last days I will pour out My Spirit.....Acts 2:17
And while the Spirit is in believers its stated our fellowship is with the Father and Christ Jesus.
Matt 12:18
“Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Nothing in regard to a person such as God the Spirit
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Doesn't appear to be any ownership associated with the Spirit either. Otherwise the Spirit would take from what is His.
John 16:14-15
He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.
Jesus didn't pray to the Holy Spirit nor teach others to ask Him anything and though Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit Jesus didn't call the Spirit His Father.

Your spirit is not another person from you but it is spoken of how it knows your thoughts.
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (Not God the Spirit)

Very good.

 

[CherubRam]

All of that is very questionable and debatable, and scholars do debate it. There are some problems with believing that Matthew first wrote in Hebrew, as well as presuming that the Hebrew manuscript that does exist even agrees with the original autograph, regardless of the language.

Not that it matters, since the Holy Spirit is clearly not simply a title for Yahweh, but a "person" distinct from both the Father and the Son, as can be seen throughout the NT.

Yahwah's name was in the original New Testament scriptures

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world."

According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

Hebrews 2:12
He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.”

Where do you see the name Yahwah in the New Testament?

 

[Free]

Well we can show the Fathers declarations in which He alone states His Spirit. Jesus does speak of that Spirit as another. So that is not assumed nor mistaken that is the Fathers Spirit per His statements. Regardless if you see the Spirit as a distinct person.
Zech 4:6
So he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty
The Fathers Promise -In the last days I will pour out My Spirit.....Acts 2:17
And while the Spirit is in believers its stated our fellowship is with the Father and Christ Jesus.
Matt 12:18
“Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.

Nothing in regard to a person such as God the Spirit
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Doesn't appear to be any ownership associated with the Spirit either. Otherwise the Spirit would take from what is His.
John 16:14-15
He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.
Jesus didn't pray to the Holy Spirit nor teach others to ask Him anything and though Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit Jesus didn't call the Spirit His Father.

Your spirit is not another person from you but it is spoken of how it knows your thoughts.
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (Not God the Spirit)

Each of the persons of the Trinity has different roles in the salvation of humans and redemption of creation. The Holy Spirit does numerous things in creation and believers' lives, but never points to himself. He always points to the Father or the Son. It is through the Holy Spirit that the Son and Father come into believers to dwell.

Here is a list of at least some (perhaps most) of the verses in the NT which clearly show the personal agency of the Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7
Listens: John 16:13
Speaks: John 16:13-15; Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: John 14:16, 15:26, 16:7; Rom 8:26-27; 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 16:13; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: John 16:13; Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31-32
Convicts: John 16:8-11

These are all actions of personal agency. To expand on a few of them:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
...
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)

That Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "another Helper [Advocate; Comforter; Counselor]" is enough to show that the Holy Spirit is a person and not the Father. Teaching and bringing to remembrance are actions of personal agency. An advocate can only be a person who advocates on behalf of another:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

We can see that Jesus is one advocate and the Holy Spirit is "another," as Jesus said. If we use one of the other definitions of parakletos, we see that only persons are helpers, comforters, or counselors.


Joh 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
Joh 15:27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning. (ESV)

Here, the "person" who is the Helper will "bear witness" about Jesus, in the same way that the disciples will "bear witness." These are also actions of personal agency.


Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: (ESV)

Notice that it is the Holy Spirit that "will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment." The Greek word for "convict" is elegcho, and means to "reprove," "admonish," "convince," and "refute." Again, these are actions of personal agency.


Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

Here, the Holy Spirit will guide believers by speaking whatever he hears, declaring "the things that are to come." Guiding, hearing, speaking, and declaring are also all actions of personal agency.

The Holy Spirit also goes by other names, most notably the Spirit of Christ (Rom 8:9), the Spirit of his Son (Gal 4:6), the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:19), and the Spirit of Christ in 1 Pet. 1:11. The last one is important because it is referring to the Holy Spirit in the OT.

It is also worth noting that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is worse than blasphemy against the Son.

Throughout the NT, the Holy Spirit is always made distinct from not only the Son, but from the Father, which is utterly pointless if the Holy Spirit is really just referring to the Father.

 

[Randy]

Each of the persons of the Trinity has different roles in the salvation of humans and redemption of creation. The Holy Spirit does numerous things in creation and believers' lives, but never points to himself. He always points to the Father or the Son. It is through the Holy Spirit that the Son and Father come into believers to dwell.

Here is a list of at least some (perhaps most) of the verses in the NT which clearly show the personal agency of the Holy Spirit:

Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7
Listens: John 16:13
Speaks: John 16:13-15; Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: John 14:16, 15:26, 16:7; Rom 8:26-27; 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 16:13; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: John 16:13; Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31-32
Convicts: John 16:8-11

These are all actions of personal agency. To expand on a few of them:

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
...
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)

That Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "another Helper [Advocate; Comforter; Counselor]" is enough to show that the Holy Spirit is a person and not the Father. Teaching and bringing to remembrance are actions of personal agency. An advocate can only be a person who advocates on behalf of another:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

We can see that Jesus is one advocate and the Holy Spirit is "another," as Jesus said. If we use one of the other definitions of parakletos, we see that only persons are helpers, comforters, or counselors.


Joh 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
Joh 15:27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning. (ESV)

Here, the "person" who is the Helper will "bear witness" about Jesus, in the same way that the disciples will "bear witness." These are also actions of personal agency.


Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: (ESV)

Notice that it is the Holy Spirit that "will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment." The Greek word for "convict" is elegcho, and means to "reprove," "admonish," "convince," and "refute." Again, these are actions of personal agency.


Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

Here, the Holy Spirit will guide believers by speaking whatever he hears, declaring "the things that are to come." Guiding, hearing, speaking, and declaring are also all actions of personal agency.

The Holy Spirit also goes by other names, most notably the Spirit of Christ (Rom 8:9), the Spirit of his Son (Gal 4:6), the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:19), and the Spirit of Christ in 1 Pet. 1:11. The last one is important because it is referring to the Holy Spirit in the OT.

It is also worth noting that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is worse than blasphemy against the Son.

Throughout the NT, the Holy Spirit is always made distinct from not only the Son, but from the Father, which is utterly pointless if the Holy Spirit is really just referring to the Father.

The Father has His own Spirit. The Spirit of God
I don't know how you distinguish His Spirit from God the Spirit.
And there is only one God and one Spirit.
To me the Father is the mind of the Spirit as its His Spirit.
And I have already shown the Father stating "My Spirit" so I have nothing to prove in regard to that. I believe "His" testimony.
I don't deny the many interactions of God the Father in heaven with mankind on earth by and through His Spirit.
Jesus Himself stated in fulfillment to, "they shall all be taught by God", those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him. Nobody comes to Him unless the Father enables them.

I see the Spirit of my heavenly Father not a 3rd person.

 

[Free]

The Father has His own Spirit. The Spirit of God
I don't know how you distinguish His Spirit from God the Spirit.
And there is only one God and one Spirit.
To me the Father is the mind of the Spirit as its His Spirit.
And I have already shown the Father stating "My Spirit" so I have nothing to prove in regard to that. I believe "His" testimony.
I don't deny the many interactions of God the Father in heaven with mankind on earth by and through His Spirit.
Jesus Himself stated in fulfillment to, "they shall all be taught by God", those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him. Nobody comes to Him unless the Father enables them.

I see the Spirit of my heavenly Father not a 3rd person.

Context, context, context. Did you look up any of the verses I provided? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of his Son:

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (ESV)

Paul is saying that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. They are one and the same.

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.
1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. (ESV)
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God in the OT who showed the prophets about the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was being revealed to the believers by the Holy Spirit, who is also the Spirit of Christ.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (ESV)
Php 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, (ESV)
The Holy Spirit is the means by which Jesus indwells and speaks to believers, hence why the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ.
Jhn 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Jhn 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Jhn 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
…
Jhn 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
…
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
…
Jhn 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)

Jhn 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Jhn 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

Notice the pattern? The Holy Spirit is distinct from both the Father and the Son and will indwell believers. Yet, Jesus says not only that he will come to us, but that both he and the Father will make their home in us. All three persons indwell believers. Notice also that “all the Father has” belongs to Jesus. That is blasphemous if Jesus isn’t equal to the Father.

All the above points to the intimate union between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three are continually kept distinct one from the other, yet all three are said to indwell believers. Jesus said that he dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in him, and we see at Jesus’s baptism that the Holy Spirit came to rest o him. There is an intimacy and union between the three distinct, coeternal, consubstantial persons of the Trinity beyond comprehension.

 

[Randy]

Context, context, context. Did you look up any of the verses I provided? The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of his Son:

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (ESV)

Paul is saying that the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. They are one and the same.

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.
1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. (ESV)
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God in the OT who showed the prophets about the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. It was being revealed to the believers by the Holy Spirit, who is also the Spirit of Christ.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” (ESV)
Php 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, (ESV)
The Holy Spirit is the means by which Jesus indwells and speaks to believers, hence why the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ.
Jhn 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Jhn 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Jhn 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
…
Jhn 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
…
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
…
Jhn 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)

Jhn 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Jhn 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

Notice the pattern? The Holy Spirit is distinct from both the Father and the Son and will indwell believers. Yet, Jesus says not only that he will come to us, but that both he and the Father will make their home in us. All three persons indwell believers. Notice also that “all the Father has” belongs to Jesus. That is blasphemous if Jesus isn’t equal to the Father.

All the above points to the intimate union between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three are continually kept distinct one from the other, yet all three are said to indwell believers. Jesus said that he dwells in the Father and the Father dwells in him, and we see at Jesus’s baptism that the Holy Spirit came to rest o him. There is an intimacy and union between the three distinct, coeternal, consubstantial persons of the Trinity beyond comprehension.

The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father and as you posted the Father sends it His name. That's why the eastern church still states the Spirit proceeds from the Father. In a believer that same Spirit conveys the will of the mind of Christ and presence. In the Son that same Spirit conveys the Fathers presence. From the Father given through the Son as in all things. Not from the Son as would be the case if He was sending His Spirit. The mind of that Spirit is the Father as its His Spirit. Jesus has been gifted the fullness and has a place on the Fathers very throne so that same Spirit will act on Jesus's point of will as if were the Father Himself. They are one. The Fathers works performed by the Son of Man was by that Spirit not His own.

It also brings into question how you define a distinct person since you believe they all have the very same Spirit. I assume it was stated so to try to define a singular God into 3 persons. Rather than the one Deity of the true God in a Son who has His own Spirit. I myself do not believe Christ Jesus is Deity. I believe the fullness of the Fathers Deity was pleased to dwell in Him and in that context He is all that the Father is, God. The image of the invisible God not that God.

The Father does not state "another" as Jesus does.
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever
If it was Jesus's spirit, as in Christ in us, how is it Jesus states another?

Yet even though the Spirit is sent in Jesus's name the Father does not state another.

Fathers promise-In the last days I will pour out My Spirit. That is truth.
One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ as stated by Paul
To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb as stated by the Host of Heaven.
Our fellowship is with the Father and Jesus as stated by John.
To know the one true God and Jesus Christ as stated by Jesus.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Father is in heaven so you can post alot of scriptures showing His interaction with man by His Spirit.
In fact the scripture, "They shall all be taught by God" is fulfilled in those who listen and learn from the Father. That Spirit of truth sends them to Jesus.

 

[miamited]

Hi SolaScriptura

Not clear on why one would use a passage in 1 Corinthians to make the best argument for the trinity. I think the best argument for the trinity comes directly from the mouth of Jesus. Go into all nations preaching the gospel and baptizing those who believe in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Just my 2¢ worth.

God bless,
Ted

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hi SolaScriptura

Not clear on why one would use a passage in 1 Corinthians to make the best argument for the trinity. I think the best argument for the trinity comes directly from the mouth of Jesus. Go into all nations preaching the gospel and baptizing those who believe in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Just my 2¢ worth.

God bless,
Ted

The OP shows that 1 Corinthians 8.6 Originally included the Holy Spirit which was removed by enemies of the Bible Teaching on the Trinity, as in 1 John 5.7

 

[miamited]

The OP shows that 1 Corinthians 8.6 Originally included the Holy Spirit which was removed by enemies of the Bible Teaching on the Trinity, as in 1 John 5.7

Hi SolaScriptura

Oh ok, sorry. I thought the post was to affirm the doctrine of the Holy Spirit and that it was there to show the reality from the passage of Scriptures in 1 Corinthians.

Carry on.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Runningman]

The OP shows that 1 Corinthians 8.6 Originally included the Holy Spirit which was removed by enemies of the Bible Teaching on the Trinity, as in 1 John 5.7

There is also the understanding that since God the Father is Himself a Holy Spirit that where Holy Spirit is mentioned that it wouldn't be a reference to a third person in a Trinity, but rather another name for the Father.

I think before trying to build the case of what was allegedly supposed to be in 1 Corinthians 8:6, it should be established that the Holy Spirit is a different person from the Father and Son. If the Holy Spirit is not a different person in the Trinity doctrine's Godhead then it wouldn't make sense for it to be included in 1 Corinthians 8:6 in the first place. It would also be strong evidence that it's highly unlikely that this was originally the case.

 

[miamited]

Hi Runningman

There is also the understanding that since God the Father is Himself a Holy Spirit that where Holy Spirit is mentioned that it wouldn't be a reference to a third person in a Trinity, but rather another name for the Father.

I too have considered that. However, for me, when that was considered, it made Jesus' words to his disciples to go out preaching the gospel and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, rather non-sensical. Further, when Jesus also tells his disciples that when he returns to the Father that the Father would send the Holy Spirit to be our comforter and bear witness to the truth, that would mean that Jesus meant that he was going to leave and God was coming down to earth to be with us. A reality that I'm pretty sure would mean that we'd all be toast by now, because God can not abide with sin. Mankind is so full of sin that God would have zapped everyone as in the days of Noah.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Runningman]

Hi Runningman



I too have considered that. However, for me, when that was considered, it made Jesus' words to his disciples to go out preaching the gospel and baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, rather non-sensical. Further, when Jesus also tells his disciples that when he returns to the Father that the Father would send the Holy Spirit to be our comforter and bear witness to the truth, that would mean that Jesus meant that he was going to leave and God was coming down to earth to be with us. A reality that I'm pretty sure would mean that we'd all be toast by now, because God can not abide with sin. Mankind is so full of sin that God would have zapped everyone as in the days of Noah.

God bless,
Ted

I understand your point, but on the other hand the Holy Spirit isn't introduced as a different person in the Bible. It's possible, if one wishes, to read into something and come up with a conclusion, but it would seem there are contexts the Holy Spirit is either the Father or sometimes a gift or anointing.

 

[Free]

The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father and as you posted the Father sends it His name. That's why the eastern church still states the Spirit proceeds from the Father.

Jesus says that both he and the Father send the Spirit:

Jhn 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)

Jhn 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. (ESV)

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. (ESV)

In a believer that same Spirit conveys the will of the mind of Christ and presence. In the Son that same Spirit conveys the Fathers presence. From the Father given through the Son as in all things. Not from the Son as would be the case if He was sending His Spirit. The mind of that Spirit is the Father as its His Spirit. Jesus has been gifted the fullness and has a place on the Fathers very throne so that same Spirit will act on Jesus's point of will as if were the Father Himself. They are one. The Fathers works performed by the Son of Man was by that Spirit not His own.

The Father doesn’t have a separate Spirit. There is just the Holy Spirit, who is also called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

It also brings into question how you define a distinct person since you believe they all have the very same Spirit. I assume it was stated so to try to define a singular God into 3 persons.

I don’t believe “they all have the very same Spirit.” My point is that each person of the Trinity indwells the others. There is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who also goes by different names depending on the context—the action being performed and whatever else is relevant.

Rather than the one Deity of the true God in a Son who has His own Spirit. I myself do not believe Christ Jesus is Deity. I believe the fullness of the Fathers Deity was pleased to dwell in Him

The Son who took on human flesh is deity; truly God in the same sense that the Father is God. That is what the sum of the biblical revelation shows.

and in that context He is all that the Father is, God. The image of the invisible God not that God.

That’s a contradiction. If Jesus is “all that the Father is,” then it necessarily follows that he is truly and fully God in the same sense as the Father. And that makes sense since a son is always the same nature as his father.

The Father does not state "another" as Jesus does.
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever
If it was Jesus's spirit, as in Christ in us, how is it Jesus states another?

Again, the Holy Spirit is another, who is also called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

Yet even though the Spirit is sent in Jesus's name the Father does not state another.

Of course. The Father speaks very little in the NT and only a couple of times in the gospels.

Fathers promise-In the last days I will pour out My Spirit. That is truth.

That is called fallaciously begging the question. You are assuming that Yahweh is only the Father.

One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ as stated by Paul

I’ve given two logical arguments of 1 Cor 8:6 and no anti-Trinitarian has ever addressed them.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all thingsand through whom we exist. (ESV)

First, if “one God, the Father" precludes Jesus from being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from being Lord. That is, if Jesus cannot be God, then the Father cannot be Lord, ever. Yet that would contradict what Paul writes in many passages, such as1 Tim. 6:15. It would also contradict numerous other passages in the NT, such as Luke 10:21.

Second, if "of whom are all things" speaks of the Father's absolute existence and his nature as God, then it necessarily follows that "by whom are all things" speaks of the Son's absolute existence and nature as God. We cannot say that in relation to the Father "all things" means absolutely everything that has come into existence but that it means something different in relation to the Son. And this is confirmed using the very same logic in John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

There is only one logical conclusion—the Son has always existed just as the Father has always existed.

 

[SolaScriptura]

There is also the understanding that since God the Father is Himself a Holy Spirit that where Holy Spirit is mentioned that it wouldn't be a reference to a third person in a Trinity, but rather another name for the Father.

I think before trying to build the case of what was allegedly supposed to be in 1 Corinthians 8:6, it should be established that the Holy Spirit is a different person from the Father and Son. If the Holy Spirit is not a different person in the Trinity doctrine's Godhead then it wouldn't make sense for it to be included in 1 Corinthians 8:6 in the first place. It would also be strong evidence that it's highly unlikely that this was originally the case.

John 15:26, is a very good example showing the clear distinction between the Persons, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit:

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth Who comes from the Father, He will testify about Me"

Here we have Jesus Christ speaking in the first-person. He says that He will send the Holy Spirit, "Who Comes from the Father". "from" is the Greek preposition, "para", which is "from the side of", showing that the Holy Spirit is distinct FROM God the Father. Three distinct Persons, Jesus the SENDER, the Holy Spirit Coming FROM THE SIDE OF the Father.

Even though the word "Spirit", is neuter in the Greek, "pneûma", which is purely grammatical, and does not mean the Holy Spirit is "a thing". Jesus does not say "He" here, using the neuter "ekeino", which would agree with the neuter "pneûma". Instead Jesus says, "ekeinos", which is masculine, and used to show a "Person".

In chapter 14, Jesus says of the Holy Spirit;

"16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you"

Some important points here. Jesus says that the Holy Spirit is "ANOTHER Helper", and uses the Greek adjective, "állos", which means, "One like Myself", and not, "heteron", "different to Himself". The Holy Spirit is ANOTHER PERSON Who is LIKE Jesus Christ. Even "Helper" is in the Greek, "ho paraklētos", in the masculine. The oldest Greek manuscript, the Papyri known as P66 (P. Bodmer II), which has been dated between AD 100-200, has in verse 17, "autón", which is masculine, "HIM", three times. Someone at a later date, has tried to erase the "n" at the send, so that it reads "autó", which is neuter! In John 16:7, Jesus says of the Holy Spirit, "I will send Him to you", where "HIM" is "autón", and not "autó". In verse 18, again we have the masculine "ekeinos" (HE) for the Holy Spirit. The language used by Jesus for the Holy Spirit is very important, as it shows that the Holy Spirit is a PERSON, Who is LIKE Himself, and not "a thing", as some blasphemously teach!

No doubt all of the evidence in the Bible shows, that the Holy Spirit is a Person, Who is LIKE Jesus Christ, and DISTINCT from Himself and the Father, and that the Spirit is also GOD, as the Father and Jesus Christ is.

 

[Tulipbee]

1 Corinthians 8:6 and The Holy Trinity
...

Ah, SolaScriptura, the cosmic custodian of scriptural purity, unveiling the celestial conspiracy of textual tinkering! Let's embark on a cosmic journey through the annals of Corinthians and explore the theological twists and turns you've brought to the cosmic table.
In the grand cosmic drama of 1 Corinthians 8:6, the original letter by the Apostle Paul echoes through the celestial corridors, proclaiming, "But to us, one God, the Father, of Whom all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom all things, and one Holy Spirit, in Whom all things and we in Him." A celestial triad that unveils the cosmic dance of the Holy Trinity, a truth that cosmic hands have attempted to alter.
You've navigated the cosmic seas of textual criticism, revealing the cosmic tug-of-war over the inclusion of "καὶ ἐν πνεῦμα ἅγιον, ἐν ᾧ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐν αὐτῷ." The cosmic battle between manuscripts, the dance of translations, and the cosmic council that witnessed over 200 bishops engaging in theological combat over the Holy Trinity.
The cosmic journey takes us through the musings of Church Fathers – Athanasius, Hilary of Poitiers, Epiphanius of Salamis, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil the Great, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine of Hippo, Cyril of Alexandria, and John of Damascus – each a celestial witness to the cosmic truth of the Holy Spirit's presence in 1 Corinthians 8:6.
And lo and behold, the cosmic council of Constantinople in A.D. 553, wielding the anathemas against those who dared challenge the consubstantial Trinity, reinforcing the cosmic truth that, "there is but one God even the Father, of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and one Holy Spirit, in whom are all things."
Now, let's cast a cosmic glance at the errors of the papal system. For in the cosmic tapestry of theological debates, the papal system has faced its fair share of controversies. Whether it be the celestial authority vested in a singular earthly figure, the indulgence trade that sent cosmic shockwaves, or the celestial whispers of "ex cathedra" proclamations, the papal system, like any other human institution, has grappled with cosmic imperfections.
So, SolaScriptura, the cosmic guardian of biblical integrity, let the celestial light of truth shine on, for in the grand narrative of faith, the cosmic dance of revelation continues, and the words of 1 Corinthians 8:6 echo through the cosmic ages.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Ah, SolaScriptura, the cosmic custodian of scriptural purity, unveiling the celestial conspiracy of textual tinkering! Let's embark on a cosmic journey through the annals of Corinthians and explore the theological twists and turns you've brought to the cosmic table.
In the grand cosmic drama of 1 Corinthians 8:6, the original letter by the Apostle Paul echoes through the celestial corridors, proclaiming, "But to us, one God, the Father, of Whom all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom all things, and one Holy Spirit, in Whom all things and we in Him." A celestial triad that unveils the cosmic dance of the Holy Trinity, a truth that cosmic hands have attempted to alter.
You've navigated the cosmic seas of textual criticism, revealing the cosmic tug-of-war over the inclusion of "καὶ ἐν πνεῦμα ἅγιον, ἐν ᾧ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐν αὐτῷ." The cosmic battle between manuscripts, the dance of translations, and the cosmic council that witnessed over 200 bishops engaging in theological combat over the Holy Trinity.
The cosmic journey takes us through the musings of Church Fathers – Athanasius, Hilary of Poitiers, Epiphanius of Salamis, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil the Great, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine of Hippo, Cyril of Alexandria, and John of Damascus – each a celestial witness to the cosmic truth of the Holy Spirit's presence in 1 Corinthians 8:6.
And lo and behold, the cosmic council of Constantinople in A.D. 553, wielding the anathemas against those who dared challenge the consubstantial Trinity, reinforcing the cosmic truth that, "there is but one God even the Father, of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and one Holy Spirit, in whom are all things."
Now, let's cast a cosmic glance at the errors of the papal system. For in the cosmic tapestry of theological debates, the papal system has faced its fair share of controversies. Whether it be the celestial authority vested in a singular earthly figure, the indulgence trade that sent cosmic shockwaves, or the celestial whispers of "ex cathedra" proclamations, the papal system, like any other human institution, has grappled with cosmic imperfections.
So, SolaScriptura, the cosmic guardian of biblical integrity, let the celestial light of truth shine on, for in the grand narrative of faith, the cosmic dance of revelation continues, and the words of 1 Corinthians 8:6 echo through the cosmic ages.

no idea what you are on about!

 

[Randy]

Jesus says that both he and the Father send the Spirit:

Jhn 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)

Jhn 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. (ESV)

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. (ESV)


The Father doesn’t have a separate Spirit. There is just the Holy Spirit, who is also called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.


I don’t believe “they all have the very same Spirit.” My point is that each person of the Trinity indwells the others. There is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who also goes by different names depending on the context—the action being performed and whatever else is relevant.


The Son who took on human flesh is deity; truly God in the same sense that the Father is God. That is what the sum of the biblical revelation shows.


That’s a contradiction. If Jesus is “all that the Father is,” then it necessarily follows that he is truly and fully God in the same sense as the Father. And that makes sense since a son is always the same nature as his father.


Again, the Holy Spirit is another, who is also called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.


Of course. The Father speaks very little in the NT and only a couple of times in the gospels.


That is called fallaciously begging the question. You are assuming that Yahweh is only the Father.


I’ve given two logical arguments of 1 Cor 8:6 and no anti-Trinitarian has ever addressed them.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all thingsand through whom we exist. (ESV)

First, if “one God, the Father" precludes Jesus from being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from being Lord. That is, if Jesus cannot be God, then the Father cannot be Lord, ever. Yet that would contradict what Paul writes in many passages, such as1 Tim. 6:15. It would also contradict numerous other passages in the NT, such as Luke 10:2

Second, if "of whom are all things" speaks of the Father's absolute existence and his nature as God, then it necessarily follows that "by whom are all things" speaks of the Son's absolute existence and nature as God. We cannot say that in relation to the Father "all things" means absolutely everything that has come into existence but that it means something different in relation to the Son. And this is confirmed using the very same logic in John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

There is only one logical conclusion—the Son has always existed just as the Father has always existed.

The Spirit that Jesus sends He receives from the Father. Jesus speaks of that Spirit as another while the Father does not even though it's sent by His stated promise in Jesus's name. The Spirit doesn't put on different hats as in changing names. It is the Spirit of the only true God the Father who is the source of all things. Its clear that in a believer the Spirit can convey the will and presence of Christ. It is the Fathers Spirit so our relationship/fellowship is with the Father and Son.

As in from the Father through the Son.

I do hold to this.
yet for us there is

one God, the Father,
from whom all things are and for whom we exist,
and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things are and through whom we exist.


Which is easier to say the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of your Father? There is no distinct person called God the Spirit. There is only one true Deity the Father. It is His Deity without limit that lives in Jesus. Col 1:19 And I tell you whether you believe it or not this is what the Spirit made known to me in regard to Col 1:19 "From the will of another" and He speaks only what He hears not on His own.
If Christ in you is a new creation, then Gods Deity that was pleased to dwell in Jesus qualifies as a Creation of the Father. Even setting aside Jesus's own spirit as the one its dwelling IN. The firstborn of all creation as in one who is born before all things. A Son of the Father.
Rev 3:14 - The beginning of the creation of God

Matt 10:16-20
I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

I hold to this as stated
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

God is Spirit and the Father is the only true God. Who alone states "My Spirit" in regard to that Spirit. He has His own Spirit.
I'm not sure why you think there is a need for a coeternal being to be exalted and be given authority.
Acts 5:31
Jesus is my Lord to the glory of God the Father.
God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

Philippians 2:9-11
New International Version​

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, SolaScriptura, the cosmic custodian of scriptural purity, unveiling the celestial conspiracy of textual tinkering! Let's embark on a cosmic journey through the annals of Corinthians and explore the theological twists and turns you've brought to the cosmic table.
In the grand cosmic drama of 1 Corinthians 8:6, the original letter by the Apostle Paul echoes through the celestial corridors, proclaiming, "But to us, one God, the Father, of Whom all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom all things, and one Holy Spirit, in Whom all things and we in Him." A celestial triad that unveils the cosmic dance of the Holy Trinity, a truth that cosmic hands have attempted to alter.
You've navigated the cosmic seas of textual criticism, revealing the cosmic tug-of-war over the inclusion of "καὶ ἐν πνεῦμα ἅγιον, ἐν ᾧ τὰ πάντα καὶ ἡμεῖς ἐν αὐτῷ." The cosmic battle between manuscripts, the dance of translations, and the cosmic council that witnessed over 200 bishops engaging in theological combat over the Holy Trinity.
The cosmic journey takes us through the musings of Church Fathers – Athanasius, Hilary of Poitiers, Epiphanius of Salamis, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil the Great, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine of Hippo, Cyril of Alexandria, and John of Damascus – each a celestial witness to the cosmic truth of the Holy Spirit's presence in 1 Corinthians 8:6.
And lo and behold, the cosmic council of Constantinople in A.D. 553, wielding the anathemas against those who dared challenge the consubstantial Trinity, reinforcing the cosmic truth that, "there is but one God even the Father, of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and one Holy Spirit, in whom are all things."
Now, let's cast a cosmic glance at the errors of the papal system. For in the cosmic tapestry of theological debates, the papal system has faced its fair share of controversies. Whether it be the celestial authority vested in a singular earthly figure, the indulgence trade that sent cosmic shockwaves, or the celestial whispers of "ex cathedra" proclamations, the papal system, like any other human institution, has grappled with cosmic imperfections.
So, SolaScriptura, the cosmic guardian of biblical integrity, let the celestial light of truth shine on, for in the grand narrative of faith, the cosmic dance of revelation continues, and the words of 1 Corinthians 8:6 echo through the cosmic ages.

Hi Tulipbee
You'd have a good conversation with my brother.
He's a writer.

But you're in the Apologetics Forum in the sub-forum for the discussion on the Trinity.

Since you know so much about it, and let's give some thanks to Athanasias for insisting, why not REALLY post and leave writing for other areas?

Seriously.

Could you repost, cut it down and shed some historic light on the subject?