1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[Corinth77777]

Maybe Hopeful 2 you are calling the wrong thing false.

And maybe you should not use the word at all

Just maybe you mean- That the goal is to remain in his Love to bring forth fruit.

For repentance is not false if God forgave, God can't be tricked.

And no one can do anything by there own strengh. Do you think that when God declared Abraham righteousness that Abraham did everything right- AND When He told Him to walk before Him blameless it was God that could keep Him in Standing.

GOD DECLARED ABRAHAM RIGHTEOUS NOT BECAUSE HE DID THINGS PERFECTLY BUT BECAUSE He Believed God.

Are you saying then that God's declaration is untrue if Abraham fell?

What does scripture say proverbs 24:16

Though a righteous man falls seven times, he will get up, but the wicked will stumble into ruin. ... For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again; ...

You see even the scripture does not call what God has called righteous false.

God calls things into existence- and His word made flesh came into time so we can get attached to it. God's word does not come back void. It accomplishes what it is set out to.

Anyone who has received life from God would not want to remain in death.

My thought:
The love of God brings man to repentance

 

[Corinth77777]

You said that Peter had Jesus, but still Peter walked after the "flesh".
So "having Jesus" didn't keep Peter from giving in to temptation.

It does mean something lol Did not Jesus say He was clean?

And if He calls you something He will give you the tools to suceed.

His journey, and what Jesus was teaching him is all apart of it. Peter meant well, Just like we all do when we say we going on a diet in the mornting but when the craving hits we literllay have lost our minds and moved from the flesh.

Man looks at the outter appearance but God the heart. And Even his intent was well meaningful it was not false. He was being taught.

Note: even Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered

 

[follower]

God's word does not come back void. It accomplishes what it is set out to.

Anyone who has received life from God would not want to remain in death.

My thought:
The love of God brings man to repentance

Adam and Chavah (Eve) and Cain and Abel all
were given life by God. Did any of them sin ?

While Godly sorrow may result in repentance, sometimes sorrow is fleshly, and without repentance.

 

[follower]

And if He calls you something He will give you the tools to suceed.

This is sort of out of order. If He Says something, that is that. He never depends on man to do anything - He Knows Perfectly What Is In Man - that's why Jesus said Jesus did not entrust Himself to any man.

 

[Hopeful 2]

if it's not in tbe Bible then you can't add to it.

That is for sure.
I am glad to meet someone with such high regard for scripture.

Gal 2:11
Peter
Gal 2:11...
Paul Confronts Peter - "But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. " nlt
Fear is not of faith
And what ever is not from faith is sin

Was Jesus in sin for having fear of His own death while praying in the garden before His arrest ?
Your citing has its own context, but that context doesn't cover every instance of fear.
Peter's fault was not sticking up for what he believed, that being, that all converts were equal.
Peter got stuck between two worlds.
One in which eating with Gentiles was condemned...and visitors with that outlook were coming to visit.
The other 'world" saw no group or nation as better than any another.
Peter acted with humility to the visiting Jews.
I can't condemn that as a sin.

sounds like your opinion, please share the scripture.

Yes, it was my opinion.
I don't believe that Ananias and Sapphira had the gift of the holy Ghost when God took their lives for lying to Him in Acts 5.
Do you think the Holy Spirit was still in them ?
How about the adulterer in 1 Cor 5 ?
Did he commit adultery while hosting the Holy Spirit ?
I think not !

what you are saying isn't adding up
at one point you are saying that the sealing is when you don't sin no more permanently,

That would be a real repentance from sin, which Acts 2:38 says is necessary to even receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

but in another area you are saying you still can and thereby grieve the holy spirit.

Converting to Christianity is no guarantee the conversion will always abide.
Many leave the faith in favor of some fleshly pursuit.
Those folks had the Spirit...until they showed their unworthiness.

If you permanently will never sin and are sealed then why would the author warn you of something you couldn't do?

It isn't a matter of "couldn't".
It is a matter of "won't".
The option to go back to serving sin is always present, and the devil will never quit trying to break our will.

But why would a sealed ( in the way you navigate the term)perfected person do this? You are not making any sense this time.

Weakness in the face of temptation.
When men get lazy; quitting reading and studying, quitting praying, quitting caring for their neighbor, quitting avoiding lures, they grow ripe for the devil's plucking.

Christianity is no picnic.
It is a war !

 

[Hopeful 2]

But why would God come into a false repentance, He cant be tricked

I think you meant..."Why would God come to one whoso repentance was false?"
It may have been real, at first.

Somewhere I am missing your view.
WHEN God forgave your sins and you were forgiven for those sins you had to repent. Because repentance comes before forgiveness.
Now God forgave you for your past sins.
So from the above, if you are saying that when/if a person sins again that there repentance was not true, then you are saying also that God did not really forgive them and His forgiving them was also not true. You are then saying God can be tricked.

'Tricked", no.
Gracious, loving, and hopeful, describes it better.
If the repentance turns out to be temporary, so too was God's forgiveness.
Out forgiveness depends on us remaining true to God.
Look at what happened to the OT Jews...on so many occasions !
They sinned, and were punished.
Again and again.
But when they turned back to Him, they were accepted !
The rest of their lives depended on not falling away again.

As if He can forgive a false repentance .

If the repentance turns out to be temporary, so too was God's forgiveness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Maybe Hopeful 2 you are calling the wrong thing false.
And maybe you should not use the word at all
Just maybe you mean- That the goal is to remain in his Love to bring forth fruit.

Won't the bring forth of good fruit start with the cessation of bringing forth bad fruit ?
That is what repentance provides.
A big, fat, turn; from darkness and unto the light.

For repentance is not false if God forgave, God can't be tricked.
And no one can do anything by there own strengh. Do you think that when God declared Abraham righteousness that Abraham did everything right- AND When He told Him to walk before Him blameless it was God that could keep Him in Standing.
GOD DECLARED ABRAHAM RIGHTEOUS NOT BECAUSE HE DID THINGS PERFECTLY BUT BECAUSE He Believed God.
Are you saying then that God's declaration is untrue if Abraham fell?

Had Abe' not sacrificed his son, God's declaration wouldn't have occurred.

What does scripture say proverbs 24:16
Though a righteous man falls seven times, he will get up, but the wicked will stumble into ruin. ... For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again; ...

IF the falls are into sin, which was the case in the OT when written, the OT Jews had atonement days for their sin.
That was before men could be reborn of God's seed !
Good seed cannot bring forth bad fruit !

You see even the scripture does not call what God has called righteous false.
God calls things into existence- and His word made flesh came into time so we can get attached to it. God's word does not come back void. It accomplishes what it is set out to.

That Word made flesh was Jesus.
Are sinners attached to Jesus ?

Anyone who has received life from God would not want to remain in death.

Ananias and Sapphira seemed to disagree with you.

My thought:
The love of God brings man to repentance

Won't the love of/for God also bring man to obedience ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

It does mean something lol Did not Jesus say He was clean?

Yes.

And if He calls you something He will give you the tools to suceed.

Peter didn't have the tools until the day of Pentecost.

His journey, and what Jesus was teaching him is all apart of it. Peter meant well, Just like we all do when we say we going on a diet in the mornting but when the craving hits we literllay have lost our minds and moved from the flesh.

Thank God that now we have the mind of Christ, and can over-rule any bodily impulse.
Paul referred to that in Rom 7:25.

Man looks at the outter appearance but God the heart. And Even his intent was well meaningful it was not false. He was being taught.

Peter's intent was to keep from suffering for following Jesus.
Hopefully Peter learned something, as his sin caused him to "weep bitterly".
"Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation NOT TO BE REPENTED OF." (2 Cor 7:10)

Note: even Jesus learned obedience through the things He suffered

I have suffered enough for my disobedience.
Enough to keep me obedient.

How about you ?

 

[Corinth77777]

In conclusion - I do not see anything that changes any of my thoights .

1. Yes one must repent- no one here has said man do not need to repent

2. Once one has believed who Jesus is with intent to follow I believe they receive the Holy Spirit

3. The work that God has prepared for us to do is our food for life .

4. I believe Jesus is the beginning and the end
meaning He conquered death for us when He arose from the dead.

But one was first reconciled by His death in oder to be saved by His life. The question is what is "saved" and saved from what?

As noted long ago- One of the first deliverences was being brought from death to life. Therefore a person must be regenerated before one calls themselves justified.

Although they can happen at the same time. Yet It is true that many believe they are Judtified who have never been regenerated. Regenerated with life from above.

Regeneration is the kick start of motivation.
For in my opinion no one seeks after God without first being made alive.

After which we are to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.

Going back to saved, what does it mean? Deliverence, delivered, maybe even hiding place, protection, or life.

And the major question is what are we saved from?

Well maybe we should bring up passages that use the word in different context. Like, Ephesians 2

In Eph 2 verse 5 -8... one was dead in transgressions and sin but made alive and therefore saved (delivered) from death.

So by grace are we saved

The question is after being reconciled can you fall back into sin...yes and so I think hope2 is saying that the goal is to remain reconciled so that you go to heaven when you die. Or for lack of words have heaven in you b4 you die.

And i think Im with Him on that part...
For scripture mentions those who indure to the end shall be saved-

Endure how? In fairh

I believe it is In Ephesians 1:13 that say "sealed" to the day of redemption. But I can see that multiple ways.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Where do get the idea that Paul is bragging in calling himself " O Wretched Man "

The apostle Paul does not brag about being wretchedly double hearted.

Your own Paul brags about being chiefest of sinners.

 

[RBDERRICK]

First time I ever heard anyone claim Paul's statement of being Chief of sinners , has been, or could ever be interpreted as bragging.

Many of his followers also follow him in it. They never miss any chance to tell others what sinners they are.

They even gladly quote Scriptures condemning themselves. Such as how none of them are righteous. None of them do any good. They all have open sepulchres for throats, etc...

It's like a great self condemnation love-fest.

I believe their church-full of sinners, has some sort of rite of passage, that requires everyone to declare what great sinners they are, in order to enter in with a big welcoming hug.

I also think they must learn to do it humbly with many tears.

Col 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

That would be the angels that sinned, not any righteous angel nor man that sins not...

 

[RBDERRICK]

1. Yes one must repent-

This is about Bible doctrine of Christ and repentance from all sins and trespasses.

Ezek
{18:31} Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? {18:32} For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves,] and live ye.

The unrepented and lukewarm repentant are not repenting the righteous Lord's commanded way.

no one here has said man do not need to repent

Not here. Only the very few say there is no need of any repentance to be saved by their own faith alone.

The great majority of faith aloners say, that there is no need to repent of all sins and trespasses as God commands.

These are the lukewarm repenters, that learn how to only do less sinning than before.

2. Once one has believed who Jesus is with intent to follow I believe they receive the Holy Spirit

Or, as said here. They promise God their intent to repent down the road, at their own faith and pace alone.

But never to repent of all their sins and trespasses at any time on the road.

It's the sinners' religion of good intenders...

It certainly can make for better homes and garden living on earth, and no doubt makes for better neighbors than Satanists. But like all religions of sinful man, it ends in the grave.



Jerem 3:10
And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

The only religion of the Lord, that raises the body from the grave unto life with God and the Lamb, is the pure religion of Jesus Christ for them that do repent of all our sins and trespasses for His sake:

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Many of his followers also follow him in it. They never miss any chance to tell others what sinners they are.

You should make sure you mention that "their Paul" is not the real Paul.

They even gladly quote Scriptures condemning themselves. Such as how none of them are righteous. None of them do any good. They all have open sepulchres for throats, etc...
It's like a great self condemnation love-fest.
I believe their church-full of sinners, has some sort of rite of passage, that requires everyone to declare what great sinners they are, in order to enter in with a big welcoming hug.
I also think they must learn to do it humbly with many tears.

 

[RBDERRICK]

3 And this is how we know [daily, by experience] that
we have come to know Him [to understand Him and be more deeply acquainted with Him]:
if we habitually keep [focused on His precepts and obey] His commandments (teachings).

4 Whoever says, “I have come to know Him,” but does not habitually keep [focused on His precepts and obey] His commandments (teachings), is a liar, and the truth [of the divine word] is not in him.

5 But whoever habitually keeps His word and obeys His precepts [and treasures His message in its entirety], in him the love of God has truly been perfected [it is completed and has reached maturity].

By this we know [for certain] that we are in Him: 6 whoever says he lives in Christ [that is, whoever says he has accepted Him as God and Savior] ought [as a moral obligation]

to walk and conduct himself just as He walked and conducted Himself.
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2 My little children (believers, dear ones), I am writing you

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 2 - Amplified Bible

Christ Is Our Advocate - My little children (believers, dear ones), I am writing you these things so that you will not sin and violate God’s law. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate [who will intercede for us] with the Father: Jesus Christ the righteous [the upright, the just One, who...

www.biblegateway.com

Christ Is Our Advocate​

Habitual faithfulness to the husband or wife, ends with the act of adultery. So with the body of the Lord:

Eph 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Man's sinful religion is a change of habit. Jesus Christ's pure religion is the change of life.

{5:17} Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. {5:18} And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ.

 

[follower]

It does mean something lol Did not Jesus say He was clean?

And if He calls you something He will give you the tools to suceed.

'cept 'twas Jesus Doing Made/Makes anyone He chooses and accomplishes being clean -
as Jesus is the vine, we (His sheep) are the branches, we can accomplish nothing in or of ourselves. He doesn't/ did not give us or anyone the tools to earn forgiveness, or to be righteous, or to do miracles, nor even to grow faith nor to have faith ! His Gift. Himself.