1 John 1: Against self-justifying doctrine

[Hopeful 2]

The forced linguistic gymnastics only make you appear more spiritually unaware of Paul's specific words and meaning.

All your gymnastics accomplishes is continued sinning.

Paul cannot be Chief of sinners based on his pre-salvation sin done ignorantly of the sin in unbelief he also spoke of.
To say you are chief of sinners and then in the same breath say ,, but , but, but "I did it ignorantly in unbelief."

Ever heard of hind-sight ?
Paul didn't think he was committing sin when he was persecuting the church, but learned later that it was...even if he wouldn't be charged with it.

Thankfully Obvious to anyone with a modicum of spiritual discernment who knows Paul better than that knows he was not that mealy mouthed and wishy washy & he was speaking to two distinctly different instances of sin.
The sin committed in unbelief and ignorance being the sin before his conversion could not be the sin that made him refer to himself as chief of sinners.

If so, what was the sin you cite ?
Or is this just attempted slander ?

The two concepts being as different as night and day, and go together like oil and water.

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Tim 1:15)

But , But , But ....

1Ti 1:13
...... I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Now you got it !
And straight from the bible !

 

[Consecrated Life]

Hopeful 2
You do understand when Paul says there are sins done in ignorance and unbelief , that by definition means that there are also sins done in belief and in knowledge ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2
You do understand when Paul says there are sins done in ignorance and unbelief , that by definition means that there are also sins done in belief and in knowledge ?

I sure do, as the Law codified many of the sins.
Paul thought he was doing God's will by following the Law in persecuting what he thought were heretics.
When he learned it wasn't heresy, he knew he had been doing wrong.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Hopeful 2
You do understand when Paul says there are sins done in ignorance and unbelief , that by definition means that there are also sins done in belief and in knowledge ?

I sure do,

Good, you now understand that even a believer with full knowledge in the Son of the Living God who walked with Christ Himself for three years can fall into sin as Peter did when he sinned not once , but sinned three times, to deny the Lord Jesus .
And Peter is with the Lord Today .
You have made wonderful progress in your understanding.
I am proud of you .
Luk 22:62
And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

 

[RBDERRICK]

When Paul declares "I am chief of sinners" he is testifying of sin that is most painful and troubling to him present , not past.

When some Paul says that he is a chief sinner, then he probably is. There are the wicked that brag about it.

And anyone that wants to follow him in his wickedness, is no doubt seeking to be just as wicked and brag about it too.

Paul says that he was not even aware of his past sins prior to his salvation committed in ignorance.
1Ti 1:13
I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

True. Now this is the apostle Paul of Jesus Christ. He glorifies the Son's mercy that delivered from all his past wickedness, rather than justifiably destroy him for it.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Some other wicked Paul still glorying in his wickedness, ought to also repent on their own road to Damascus, before it's too late and becomes just another sinners' road to hell.

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Rom 2:5
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

God's biblical principle of unto whom much is given , much more is required applies to sin as well .
Where you aware of that ?

True. It's a principle all men know.

The righteous and merciful Lord shows much mercy to past wickedness, that He may see much righteousness instead.

Matth 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Only the god of this world expects much wickedness from his wicked chiefs. And glorifying it without shame is all the better to him...

We can look to ourselves in this regard , what sin has been most painful and troubling for you in your life , sin you committed before you ever knew the Love of Christ , or sin that occurred after you had been GIVEN so much in Christ who died to be your Savior ?

Only a contiunued sinner following a chief sinner, would presume sinning in the name of Christ.

2Pe 2:10

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

And so we see how Scripture of God works to expose any lie made from His truth:

Someone is promoting someone chiefly sinning, as an example to follow. And then exhorting such presumptive sinning for all.

And here we have God speaking of the chief sinners, that are presumptuous in their sinning. That also speak such evil things against the name and dignity of Jesus Christ and His own apostle.

Not the words of someone "boasting of their continued sinning" I might add.
Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Which is true, which further proves the apostle speaking of wretched dobule heartedness, is not any Paul bragging about being a chiefest of sinners.

And the double hearted seeks deliverance, rather than an assurance of remaining chiefest of sinners.

For me the sin that is most painful and sorrowful & demoralizing is the sin that has occurred post-salvation, after I had received the greatest love, promise & assurance, any person can ever receive in the person of Jesus Christ.

It's good to see you still have godly sorrow for your sinning. And if you repent of your own double heartedness, as the apostle did in Rom 7, then you too can move on to the perfectness of only walking in the Spirit and not after the flesh.

But there were then and still are some today, that scandously report the apostle Paul as a chief sinner, in order to justify their own unrepented sinning. And they take Romans 7 as a call to commit to double heartedness for life in the name of 'Paul', rather than as a wretched betrayal of Christ to be delivered from.

The sins I committed in ignorance before I ever received Christ ,

I did my sinning knowingly on purpose. More the better.

Until I sought the Lord, and His word also commanded me to repent, that I may know Him.

I don't seek to know any lord, christ, nor god with my unrighteousness and ungodliness. Nor do I seek to follow any christ nor apostle loudly proclaiming what chief sinners they still are, and calling on others to do likewise.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

2 Cor 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Since you still confess godly sorrow for your unrepented sinning, and you appear to agree that such double heartedness is wretchedness to be delivered from. Then I can wholeheartedly advice you to stop preaching a chiefly sinning apostle, and begin believing in the chiefest example of complete deliverance from all past trespasses, the apostle Paul.

That's the only way we too can ever give God the glory by Jesus Christ, who so greatly saves His people from their sinning... Not with and in it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Good, you now understand that even a believer with full knowledge in the Son of the Living God who walked with Christ Himself for three years can fall into sin as Peter did when he sinned not once , but sinned three times, to deny the Lord Jesus .
And Peter is with the Lord Today .
You have made wonderful progress in your understanding.
I am proud of you .
Luk 22:62
And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

Peter was still an OT man who had no option to walk in the Spirit, until the day of Pentecost.
After that, he could walk in the Spirt instead of in the "flesh".

 

[Consecrated Life]

Peter was still an OT man who had no option to walk in the Spirit, until the day of Pentecost.
After that, he could walk in the Spirt instead of in the "flesh".

Peter sinned and was forgiven after The New Covenant was put into effect .
The New being A completely different Testament from the Old
Your legalist mind has you falling behind again .

 

[Consecrated Life]

When some Paul says that he is a chief sinner, then he probably is. There are the wicked that brag about it.

And anyone that wants to follow him in his wickedness, is no doubt seeking to be just as wicked and brag about it too.

Do you believe that Paul is not with the Lord today ?

 

[RBDERRICK]

I can honestly say that no Christian I know has ever boasted or attempted to Justify to me a sin they have becoming ensnared in.

Then why do some preach it without shame in the name of Paul?

It's for certain there is no hint of shame with Paul, when proclaiming his own chief example. Indeed, he is glorifying the Lord for it beforehand and afterward.

The only shame he shows, is when he acknowledges his past chief wickedness, before he was saved and called by Jesus Christ.

Which chiefest of sinning was as Saul of Tarsus in the past, before he became Paul the apostle.

2Co 11:10
As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.

Paul was boasting of his love for the brethren by not being burdensome to them. Does he also boast of His love for Christ by being a chiefest of sinner with Him? God forbid.

Such unashamed accusers of Paul, likewise trumpet him as a great example of lifelone double heartedness.

And they show no hint of shame nor wretchedness while doing so. Indeed, they never even speak of it being wretched, much less any need to be delivered from it.

They gladly magnify the middle of Romans 7, as some way to serve Christ in the mind alone, while serving sin with the flesh.

But do they acknowledge Paul also was speaking of the past, as opposed to his present godliness in the first verses? No.

And they certainly never keep teaching Romans y at the very last, where such doublemindedness with Christ is wretched and in need of deliverance, before moving on to the blessed walk in the Spirit of Romans 8.

To person they have all expressed shame & remorse, repentance and turning away from it.

This is the godly sorrow of the saint in Christ that repents, if we sin. This is not the pretence of sorrow for the sinners, who know they will continue sinning and repent not.

Did not Esau cry a lot about his own disobedience, yet repented not.

Who knows they will continue sinning, but them that believe and preach they will? How long before their own godly sorrow, becomes sorry lip service?

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Could be due to the fact that anyone who knows me knows that attempting to boast or justify sin will not get a favorable response form me.

What we preach, we justify, whether doing good or evil.

If we preach continued sinning, we justify it in life. If we preach doing righteousness, we are justified by it in life.

Who preaches continued sinning, but them that declare they certainl will continue sinning, and justify it by declaring it is impossible to sin not?

Who is a preacher of righteousness and justification by righteousness, but them that declare we must cease sinning in Christ, and only do His good will?

If we do not justify what we live and preach, then we condemn our own living and preaching.

We cannot preach it is impossible not to continue sinning on earth, and not justify it as inevitable in this life.

Inevitable sinning is preaching for the unrepented sinners to be justified in it.

I reject any bad news preaching, that declares it impossible to walk as Jesus walked, nor always please God '100% of the time'...

Many applaud that as good news preaching, because it justifies not always pleasing the Father. We see them clapping each other on the back for being so 'boldly' honest and humble.

For the people you describe , of which I have never known one personally the one biblical application that immediately comes to mind is that " God is not mocked"

It is true, that some do brag about their continued 'already forgiven' sinning. I have met them.

However, the Scripture is not about open mockers of God's judgment, but about preaching a mockery of His judgment of works. Specifically about how He does not condemn the evil works of His own people, but only of those not naming His name:

Gal 6:6
Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Once again, it's the very few who come out and say such things openly, but it's them that preach such things making a mockery of God's judgment, as being with respect of persons.

Some Jews did so by having the law in writing, though not doing the law, and some Christians do so by having faith alone, though not doing the word.

They each cause the law and grace of Christ to be blasphemed, by preaching they are uncondemned in their own trsngressions, as opposed to other condemned transgressors.

It's the grevious hypocrisy Paul is accuse of, by calling him the chiefest of transgressors, while in his gospel preaching the most to condemn the transgressions of others.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Peter sinned and was forgiven after The New Covenant was put into effect .
The New being A completely different Testament from the Old
Your legalist mind has you falling behind again .

Technically, you are correct, so I will defer to your POV.
But still, men couldn't benefit from it until they could receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Corinth77777]

Peter was still an OT man who had no option to walk in the Spirit, until the day of Pentecost.
After that, he could walk in the Spirt instead of in the "flesh".

But He had Jesus in Person-

Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.”

 

[Corinth77777]

So what have we gained from this topic with hope2?

My answer: more questions

Hopeful 2

1. Do you believe one receives the Holy Spirit when they never sin again?

A. Do you believe the holy Spirit indwells a person when they never sin again? Or
Do you believe it comes over the person but yet not in, until they are sinless.

2. Do you believe the Holy Spirit resides in a person? Or that we are given A Spirit @ conception (upon belief in who Jesus is with intent to follow"

A. Do you believe the holy Spirit can be taken away after being received inwardly??

3. When do you believe a person is reconciled and what does that mean to you?

4. Do you believe a person can be reconciled and then unreconciled?

 

[RBDERRICK]

Do you believe that Paul is not with the Lord today ?

Which Paul? Paul the chiefest of righteous apostles of Jesus Christ, or the one you preach as being some big unrepented sinner and braggart?

I follow the apostle Paul as He follows the righteous Jesus Christ. Do you follow your Paul as he follows the biggest sinners? And brags about it?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Paul who? Paul the chiefest of righteous apostles of Jesus Christ, or some big unrepented sinner braggart Paul, that you preach?

Where do get the idea that Paul is bragging in calling himself " O Wretched Man " because of what he was no longer ignorant of after being saved & educated regarding not only what the law called sin , but what Jesus calls sin ?
You don't know Paul very well.
Listen to the what Paul said after his schooling , which made him no longer ignorant to the true meaning of sin above and beyond the law after Jesus educated him :

Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

 

[follower]

But He had Jesus in Person-

SO IMPORTANT ! YES ! HALLELUYAH!

A majority of the population never realizes this, but they have heard of and except casper (the friendly GHOST).... they laugh, and .... well, never turn to JESUS. unless God Softens their heart Giving them Grace to come to Him.

 

[follower]

You don't know Paul very well.

JESUS DOES. Jesus is a good friend and teacher and savior of the messenger of God PAUL.
And JESUS and YHVH make known the true revelation to PAUL, and to others who come to God while renouncing and turning from sin.

 

[follower]

My answer: more questions

hmmmm........ looked at a couple of the questions. First thought - Where's JESUS ? He IS the spirit. (as written in Scripture. As Jesus Says to the disciples (then and now): I (Jesus) Will never, no never, not ever leave you as orphans or forsake you or leave you without help and support.

 

[follower]

1 John 1 is not just against sinners saying they have no sin, but is specifically about sinners believing they have no sin condemned by God, because they name His name.

I don't think so, no.


But I'll read 1 John again to double verify.

 

[Hopeful 2]

But He had Jesus in Person-

Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.”

It didn't make much difference, did it ?
Peter walked in the flesh, and committed sin, until the day of Pentecost; and he received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So what have we gained from this topic with hope2?
My answer: more questions

That shows you are thinking !

Hopeful 2
1. Do you believe one receives the Holy Spirit when they never sin again?

I beleive Peter, who said if you repent of sin, and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
You get nothing for false repentances from sin but false bravado.

A. Do you believe the holy Spirit indwells a person when they never sin again?

Yes, as the repentance form sin must be true-permanent !

Or
Do you believe it comes over the person but yet not in, until they are sinless.

There is no difference between "over" and "in".
Our repentance from sin must be true-real, as the Holy Spirit will not dwell in a polluted "temple".

2. Do you believe the Holy Spirit resides in a person?

Not before repentance from sin.

Or that we are given A Spirit @ conception (upon belief in who Jesus is with intent to follow"

1 Repentance from sin. 2 Baptism to clean the temple. 3 Reception of the Holy Ghost.
This was the format for everyone in the bible but Cornelius...which was a special circumstance to show that God had accepted the Gentiles.

A. Do you believe the holy Spirit can be taken away after being received inwardly??

Yes, I do....but a detailed report would be a new thread.

3. When do you believe a person is reconciled and what does that mean to you?

Man can be reconciled to God, and thankfully, God has left us the instructions for doing that.

4. Do you believe a person can be reconciled and then unreconciled?

I tend to beleive that if man who seems to be in Christ manifests that he really isn't, he has been acting within his own power to make it appear that he is holy, just, good.
He was a poser.
But a real reconciliation with God has not been taken off the table for him.
God doesn't want anyone to perish.