Bible Study 1 John 5:16-17

[GuitarIntro]

I just finished reading 1 John and came across a section I am a bit confused with. Can anyone give me a hand?

What does 1 John 16-17 mean? It talks about sin that does not lead to death and sin that does lead to death.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I just finished reading 1 John and came across a section I am a bit confused with. Can anyone give me a hand?

What does 1 John 16-17 mean? It talks about sin that does not lead to death and sin that does lead to death.

It is talking about Mortal and venial sin:

IV. THE GRAVITY OF SIN: MORTAL AND VENIAL SIN

1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture (1 Jn 16-17) became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart.......

Source: Catechism Of The Catholic Church:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

 

[DavidLee]

“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.â€Â
(1John 5:16-17 NASB)

I am no scholar, but I take this to mean that if a person is saved (a brother), their sin does not lead to death. Don't "shoot the wounded". God is merciful.

“save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.â€Â
(Jude 1:23 NASB)

 

[DavidLee]

“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.â€Â
(1John 5:16-17 NASB)

I am no scholar, but I take this to mean that if a person is saved (a brother), their sin does not lead to death. Don't "shoot the wounded". God is merciful.

“save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.â€Â
(Jude 1:23 NASB)

The reason I posted this is because of Paul's statement:
“I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.â€Â
(1 Corinthians 5:5 NASB)
And:
“Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered over to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.â€Â
(1 Timothy 1:20 NASB)

We should not seek for these things in the case of a brother. Forgive my multiple post. I wanted to be clear.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.....We should not seek for these things in the case of a brother. Forgive my multiple post. I wanted to be clear.

You did not read the whole text: It is ALL in the context of praying for a brother:

16-17: If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.


This is the problem with people who used the term "saved" as if salvation is a one-time event. You can't fathom the idea that a brother can commit a Mortal Sin and forfeit his salvation, when, in fact, he can.

 

[DavidLee]

.....We should not seek for these things in the case of a brother. Forgive my multiple post. I wanted to be clear.

You did not read the whole text: It is ALL in the context of praying for a brother:

16-17: If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.


This is the problem with people who used the term "saved" as if salvation is a one-time event. You can't fathom the idea that a brother can commit a Mortal Sin and forfeit his salvation, when, in fact, he can.

I was not clear in spite of my caution.

This text as well as the other verses I quoted do not speak (in my estimation) to the type of sin a brother is committing so much as our behavior regarding a brother in Christ.
If it were a case of determination then the sins would have been named, as they are in various other passages of scripture.

 

[stovebolts]

This is the problem with people who used the term "saved" as if salvation is a one-time event. You can't fathom the idea that a brother can commit a Mortal Sin and forfeit his salvation, when, in fact, he can.

CC,
For the integrity of the Bible Study Forum and it's purpose, lets keep this to a Bible study, not Apologetics or a study of the Catholic Catechism.

Thank you :wink:

I am no scholar, but I take this to mean that if a person is saved (a brother), their sin does not lead to death. Don't "shoot the wounded". God is merciful.

Amen,

In the OT, the priest was to sacrifice offerings to the Lord for the sins that the people committed in ignorance. I've always looked at 1 John 5:16-17 in that light.

Leviticus 4:27-28 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he does something against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he has sinned, comes to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has sinned.

Where we get into sins that lead to death, I've always looked at these passages for direction.

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

And then we have the sin of when we blaspheme the Holy Spirit;
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemes against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven.

or when one willfully turns away from the faith through their own lusts...

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog has turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

This text as well as the other verses I quoted do not speak (in my estimation) to the type of sin a brother is committing so much as our behavior regarding a brother in Christ.
If it were a case of determination then the sins would have been named, as they are in various other passages of scripture.

But the whole text is ABOUT "sin", not behavior

 

[DavidLee]

This text as well as the other verses I quoted do not speak (in my estimation) to the type of sin a brother is committing so much as our behavior regarding a brother in Christ.
If it were a case of determination then the sins would have been named, as they are in various other passages of scripture.

But the whole text is ABOUT "sin", not behavior

I respectfully disagree.
Read the preceding passage:
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.â€Â
(1 John 5:13-15 NASB) (Emphasis is mine)

Now read of our subject text again:
“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.â€Â
(1 John 5:16 NASB) (Emphasis is mine)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

This text as well as the other verses I quoted do not speak (in my estimation) to the type of sin a brother is committing so much as our behavior regarding a brother in Christ.
If it were a case of determination then the sins would have been named, as they are in various other passages of scripture.

But the whole text is ABOUT "sin", not behavior

I respectfully disagree.
Read the preceding passage:
“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.â€Â
(1 John 5:13-15 NASB) (Emphasis is mine)

Now read of our subject text again:
“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.â€Â
(1 John 5:16 NASB) (Emphasis is mine)

Well, I see the word "sin" in there multiple times, but I don't see the word "behavior" anywhere

 

[stovebolts]

Well, I see the word "sin" in there multiple times, but I don't see the word "behavior" anywhere

umm. .. ya kinda lost me

Isn't there such a thing as sinful behavior?

If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he (The person seeing his brother sinning) shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death.

Give me and example CC so I can better understand your point.

 

[BFSmith764]

I just finished reading 1 John and came across a section I am a bit confused with. Can anyone give me a hand?

What does 1 John 16-17 mean? It talks about sin that does not lead to death and sin that does lead to death.

On reading your post the first thing that came to mind is this verse.

Matthew 12:32 (ESV)
32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[lawhammer]

:-? "Sin unto death", in the context of this letter directed against Gnostic teaching which included denial of the incarnation, and tossing to the winds all moral restraints, the phrase probably refers to their adamant and persistant denial of the truth, as well to their rampant immorality. This unrepented leads to spiritual death here, but not phyical death.

 

[BFSmith764]

:-? "Sin unto death", in the context of this letter directed against Gnostic teaching which included denial of the incarnation, and tossing to the winds all moral restraints, the phrase probably refers to their adamant and persistant denial of the truth, as well to their rampant immorality. This unrepented leads to spiritual death here, but not phyical death.

That scripture is not talking about unbelievers, because it says if any one sees his brother.....and so on. An unbeliever is not a brother or sister as the case might be in the eyes of God. For me if a brother or sister sins against the Holy Spirit, such as what the Pharisees were doing when they liken what Jesus was doing, (which He did by the Holy Spirit) that He did it by Satan or that Satan was the power behind what Jesus was doing, this would be committing a sin that leads to death.

But I hasten to say that I have not done an in-depth study on that topic, just that this was what first came to mind when that question was asked.

 

[GodzKid]

I just finished reading 1 John and came across a section I am a bit confused with. Can anyone give me a hand?

What does 1 John 16-17 mean? It talks about sin that does not lead to death and sin that does lead to death.

The "sin unto death" is the unforgivable sin. If a man commits this sin, prayer will avail nothing for the man is born of the seed of the serpent. However, if a brother in the flesh has not committed the unforgivable sin (sin unto death), we can pray for salvation for a family member who wills to hear and believes God's promise. The word "brother" in verse 16 specifically refers to a brother by birth.

 

[Paidion]

Does verse 18 which follows the passage in question, throw any light on the subject?

We know that any one who has been begotten of God does not sin, but He who was begotten of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

 

[Abimael]

Sin that does lead to death are those sins against the Holy Spirit spoken of in Mk. 3:29; Mt. 12:32; Lk. 12:10.

"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but shall be guilty of an everlasting sin." Mk. 3:29

These sins are:

(1) Despair,
By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God's goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.

(2) Presumption of God's mercy,
There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit)."

(3) Impugning the known truth,
To "impugn" the known truth means to attack it by word or argument, to resist it, to contradict it, or even to oppose the known truth or to challenge it as false.

(4) Envy the spiritual good of another,
Regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians states, "All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually as the Spirit chooses." To envy the spiritual good of another is to question the Divine judgement of the Holy Spirit in His distribution of spiritual gifts. It is to be jealous of another person who has a gift different than one's own gift. Through envy, one rejects the gift that he has received from the Holy Spirit, determining in his own mind that the gift he has received is not good enough for him and he wants someone else's gift.

(5) Obstinacy in sin,
To be "obstinate" means to resist the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, to be stubborn, to persist in sin, to be unyielding.

(6) Final impenitence.
"Impenitence" means to be uncontrite, unrepentant, hardened, unconverted, to be without regret, shame or remorse.

 

[Vic C.]

I just finished reading 1 John and came across a section I am a bit confused with. Can anyone give me a hand?

What does 1 John 16-17 mean? It talks about sin that does not lead to death and sin that does lead to death.

Hi Guitar...

First off, I honestly believe this passage has nothing to do with the unpardonable sin, nor does it have to do with "venial or mortal" or any other sin that could possibly affect our relationship with our Creator.

I do believe this passage has everything to do with old Jewish law. So many times do we read scripture and totally forget to even think what it meant to the first century believer. We are still dealing with Jewish converts here: John and the people he was writing to were Jewish believers.

In Jesus' time, sins were dealt with in accordance to civil law. Some transgression were dealt a punishment of death and no pleading or interceding could change the verdict. They would be told up front there will be no pardon! Prayer in this case was futile.

Some were dealt with by a death sentence, but could be overturned for whatever reason. We call this a "pardon". They were informed whether or not there was a chance for a pardon or some other sentence besides death.

So in this case, intercession and prayer could be very effective.

Adam Clarke summed it up this way:

"This opinion, which has been advanced by Rosenmuller, intimates that men should feel for each other's distresses, and use their influence in behalf of the wretched, nor ever abandon the unfortunate but where the case is utterly hopeless."

Again, there is no real indicator here for linking this to the Matthew passage concerning the unforgivable sin. in fact, I believe this isn't even a sin we can commit as believers. It has to do with leaders and teachers, specifically, but not exclusively, to that period of time.

 

[Paidion]

I don't believe there are specific sins which lead to death and others which don't (as in "mortal sins" and "venial sins"). I believe sin which leads to death is ongoing sin, and that which doesn't is sporadic sin. There is no Greek indefinite article, and so some transators have supplied the article "a" as in "a sin". I believe this to be a mistake. Consider the following translation:

If anyone sees his brother sinning sin not toward death, he shall ask, and He will give him life, to those not sinning toward death. There is sin toward death. Not concerning that do I say he should inquire. We know that everyone having been begotten of God does not go on sinning, but the One begotten of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that everyone who having been begotten of God does not keep on sinning, but He who was begotten of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. I John 5:16-18.

The present active indicative in Greek usually contains the idea of continuing action, as in the bolded words of the last two sentences of the quote. This is how we can judge whether the brother is sinning sin which leads to death. If we see that it is ongoing, we know that it leads to death, and there is no sense in praying about it, since as long as the brother will not repent of it, God can do nothing for him without interfering with his free will (which God will not do). The only hope for the brother is repentance on his part. We can talk to him and urge him to repent. For according to the passage he has not been regenerated.

Here is another passage which says something similar about continuing in sin. This time the verb is a present active participle. If translated literally, the passage begins: "If our sinning deliberately..."

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26,27 ESV

 

[stovebolts]

That was very well done IMO Paidion,

I posted this verse earlier, and I think it complements your previous post. What are your thoughts?

James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.