1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[JLB]

Is it safe to assume that your repeated posts of Paul's 1/5 of a sentence that begins Paul's "but" (on the other hand) point, dis-regarding the rest of it, then accusing me of disgregarding the 'context' and falsely accusing me of claiming faith in food saves is all you have to say about 1 Tim 4:1-5?

Here is the context of 1 Timothy 4:1, as previously posted for all to see, that the context of 1 Timothy 4:1, specifically the phrase
"the faith", is a reference to "the faith" we have in Christ Jesus.

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of
the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly;15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 3:8-4:1

I don't believe anyone who reads 1 Timothy 4:1, has any question at all, that "the faith" mentioned here is a reference to the faith we have in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Those who depart from the faith, have departed from the very substance of their salvation, the very thing they were hoping for.

as it is written -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


If we have faith in Jesus Christ our Lord for salvation, then we have the hope of salvation. This hope is the evidence of the salvation that is not yet seen.


Of course you know this, which is why you are fighting so hard to attempt to prove that "the faith" is not "the faith" in Christ Jesus but faith in some other thing.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Already been over this. Humanity is BORN spiritually dead. And once someone believes in Christ, they are born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED. I will assume that everyone understands what that means. It means they won't EVER perish. That's what Jesus said in John 3:16.

Here is the context, of Romans 6:23 again.

There is no such reference to being born spiritually dead, or a quote from John 3;16 mentioned.

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

• "So now" present your members as slaves to righteousness, is an admonition to those who are Christians.

What is mentioned is a warning to the Church at Rome, to those who are engaging in willful sin, by presenting their body as a slave to sin, thinking that because they are not under the law, but grace, that this is a license for them to live immorally.

Paul appeals to their "slave mindset", using language they will understand, to warn them this will lead to their death.

This is a teaching and warning to Christians living in Rome, not to sin and engage themselves in an immoral lifestyle.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23


These Christians are admonished to become a slave of God, and of righteousness, in which they bear fruit unto holiness, and so in the end, receive eternal life, rather than live as a slave to sin and in the end receive eternal death.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If the "gifts and calling of God are "right from the passage, what specific verse or verses delineates these so-called gifts to Israel?"

You're not paying attention.

I am, and I am noticing how much my questions are being dodged.

"the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB)
I said the context in which "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" is found right there in Romans chapter 11. It doesn't matter what the gifts and calling of God are.

I think it matters VERY MUCH. In fact, that's the whole point of Rom 11:29 and the gifts of God. We need to know what they are, and believe that they are all irrevocable. Not cherry pick which ones we want to be irrevocable and which ones we don't.

What matters is, Paul shows that he is proof that God did not change his mind about the gifts and calling of God for Israel (whatever those gifts may be).

Why the desperate need to reduce these gifts of God as yet un-named gifts of God for israel only? Where in the entire epistle would anyone come to the conclusion that Paul never meant for the spiritual gifts or justification or eternal life to be included in Rom 11:29?

Do you understand the argument? If you do, use chapter 11 to prove it wrong.

I don't think you understand the issue at all.

Don't start arguing what the gifts and calling are. THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

It is the entire point. The ONLY POINT. To claim otherwise is just another dodge.

The point is, those gifts and calling as promised to the descendants of Abraham were not taken away from Israel just because they as a nation have been cut out of the tree. They are irrevocable in that regard. There is NOTHING in the chapter, or even the whole book of Romans, about God letting former believers keep their eternal life in Christ despite their fall from faith in Christ.

Your position can't even name from the context ANY gift for Israel, as if Paul spoke of any gifts for Israel, yet demands that 11:29 is ONLY about those un-named gifts. Amazing.

Paul specifically mentioned 3 gifts of God before he got around to penning 11:29, and your position wants to ignore that. Amazing.

DO NOT START TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE GIFTS ARE, AGAIN.

I will never stop asking what these un-named so-called gifts for Israel are, since Paul NEVER even said anything about gifts for Israel.

That has NOTHING to do with my argument.

I'm not interested in your argument. It isn't based on Scripture or logic. Therefore, it is unbiblical and illogical.

If you want to disprove what I'm saying YOU MUST TALK ABOUT WHAT I'M SAYING.

Those who want to disprove another's argument only have to point to the truth to refute or disprove what they are saying. Which I've done.

Biblical facts:
The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. No indication that Paul meant to infer what he NEVER spoke about.
Eternal life and justification are gifts of God.
Therefore, eternal life and justification are irrevocable.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said It is clear that your theology is a works (lifestyle) based salvation. Which is in direct contradiction to the Bible.

Please point out the phrase where I said we are to "work" to earn our salvation.




JLB

 

[chessman]

I don't believe anyone who reads 1 Timothy 4:1, has any question at all, that "the faith" mentioned here is a reference to the faith we have in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Anyone who reads 1Tim 4:1 and stops reading him before the end of his sentence is not really interested in "the faith" he's talking about depating from there in his statement. Anyone that doesn't realize that verse 4:1 starts another point, differing from the one he just made in chapter 3, by Paul's use of δέ ( meaning: but, on the other hand, a weak adversative particle) is not understanding his other point.

 

[FreeGrace]

So much posturing in this thread. I find it disingenuous to repeatedly deem someone's interpretation of scripture to be opinion. This reduces the level of the conversation and relies on tactics as opposed to an honest dependence on the Word alone.

You (general) do yourself and your argument a disservice by relying on such tactics. So too when you accuse others of ignoring or refusing to believe scripture. "You" must realize your credibility is tarnished when your argument depends upon such posturing. The appearance is that you are running low on confidence that the Word alone supports your position.

Since I have used the "opinion" word in my posts, I'm sure this is directed my way. If 2 believers come up with totally different interpretations of Scripture, can they both be right? No, of course not. At least one of them has to be wrong. Maybe both. Always depends on what evidence there is from either side.

So, when one side cannot provide any evidence, my conclusion is that their interpretation is an opinion, not backed up by Scriptural evidence. There is no posturing to say that. If there is no evidence, there is nothing but opinion.

And we have a clear example of this. I've been asking for where in Romans 11 does Paul identify any gifts of God for Israel, which forms the other side's interpretation of what Paul supposedly meant in 11:29, a key verse on the gifts of God being irrevocable. And now we see that the other side cannot identify any such "gifts of God for Israel" and even goes so far as to say "that's not the point". Really? That's the whole point. To understand what Paul was referring to in 11:29 by "gifts of God". And I've provided evidence from Paul in what he meant by showing the 3 places in Romans where he identified 3 gifts of God. Yet, the other side doesn't believe that eternal life is irrevocable.

If eternal life isn't irrevocable, then Paul was remiss by not making that crystal clear with plain words to say so. But he didn't. In ANY epistle.

What he did say is clear enough: eternal life is a gift of God in 6:23. The gifts of God are irrevocable in 11:29.
The conclusion should be obvious.

So, when I ask for evidence to support the other side's position, and am told "that's not the point", it should be clear why that is said. They simply have no evidence.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is the context, of Romans 6:23 again.
There is no such reference to being born spiritually dead, or a quote from John 3;16 mentioned.

Is your view that people are born spiritually alive, then? And does John 3:16 not apply to Rom 6:23? Please explain your answers.

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

• "So now" present your members as slaves to righteousness, is an admonition to those who are Christians.

What is mentioned is a warning to the Church at Rome, to those who are engaging in willful sin, by presenting their body as a slave to sin, thinking that because they are not under the law, but grace, that this is a license for them to live immorally.

Paul appeals to their "slave mindset", using language they will understand, to warn them this will lead to their death.

This is a teaching and warning to Christians living in Rome, not to sin and engage themselves in an immoral lifestyle.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23

There is no explanation of HOW all these verses refute the fact that eternal life is a gift of God. Period. And Paul said that God's gifts are irrevocable.

So, those who want to remove the gift of eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable must provide clear textual evidence that Paul did that. And that hasn't been done.

These Christians are admonished to become a slave of God, and of righteousness, in which they bear fruit unto holiness, and so in the end, receive eternal life, rather than live as a slave to sin and in the end receive eternal death. JLB

Seems to me that your position is that only believers who "bear fruit unto holiness" will THEN receive eternal life "in the end", which is just another way of saying that salvation is by works.

And, that believers who "live as a slave to sin" will "in the end receive eternal death".

So, your position is very clear. It is not one of salvation by grace through faith and not of works, as Paul taught in Eph 2:8-9, but one of producing fruit unto holiness, which is clearly work, not grace.

Your position is parallel to that of the Pharisees of Jesus' day. They thought keeping the Law would gain them eternal life. That's what Jesus said about their religion:
John 5:39-40
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. NIV

The only difference between what you've explained in this post and what the Pharisees thought is that they thought they POSSESSED eternal life, and your view is that eternal life is rewarded at the end of one's life ONLY IF they produced fruit to holiness.

This seems to be a flip flop, as earlier posts said that one must continue to believe in order to continually saved.

So there are 2 separate views contained within your position on how to get eternal life? How does that work?

 

[FreeGrace]

Please point out the phrase where I said we are to "work" to earn our salvation.
JLB

Does this ring a bell?

"These Christians are admonished to become a slave of God, and of righteousness, in which they bear fruit unto holiness, and so in the end, receive eternal life, rather than live as a slave to sin and in the end receive eternal death." Post #202

That statement clearly speaks of works, whether or not that word was used.

The point is that such a view removes the work of Christ on the cross for our sins as the basis for receiving eternal life. If we get eternal life by bearing fruit, then what was the point of Christ going to the cross in the first place?

 

[JLB]

Does this ring a bell?

"These Christians are admonished to become a slave of God, and of righteousness, in which they bear fruit unto holiness, and so in the end, receive eternal life, rather than live as a slave to sin and in the end receive eternal death." Post #202

That statement clearly speaks of works, whether or not that word was used.

The point is that such a view removes the work of Christ on the cross for our sins as the basis for receiving eternal life.

Works is not mentioned in my post.

If we get eternal life by bearing fruit, then what was the point of Christ going to the cross in the first place?

To restore to us what Adam lost in the Garden.

To cleanse us of our sins, and empower us with the Holy Spirit, to live the life of Jesus Christ.

Not to live as immoral slaves to sin, but to practice the righteous life of Him who paid for our sins on the cross, and who dwells within us to express His life through the new nature we receive when we repent and believe the Gospel.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

and again

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7



JLB

 

[JLB]

Anyone who reads 1Tim 4:1 and stops reading him before the end of his sentence is not really interested in "the faith" he's talking about depating from there in his statement. Anyone that doesn't realize that verse 4:1 starts another point, differing from the one he just made in chapter 3, by Paul's use of δέ ( meaning: but, on the other hand, a weak adversative particle) is not understanding his other point.

If you believe that "the faith" in 1 Timothy 4:1 is not a reference to "the faith" in Christ Jesus, then please explain what "the faith" is a reference to in that verse and use scripture where Paul uses the phrase "the faith" elsewhere in the new testament to describe some "other faith".


Here is the context of 1 Timothy 4:1, as previously posted for all to see, that the context of 1 Timothy 4:1, specifically the phrase
"the faith", is a reference to "the faith" we have in Christ Jesus.

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of
the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly;15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 3:8-4:1

I don't believe anyone who reads 1 Timothy 4:1, has any question at all, that "the faith" mentioned here is a reference to the faith we have in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• Those who depart from the faith, have departed from the very substance of their salvation, the very thing they were hoping for.

as it is written -

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1




JLB

 

[chessman]

If you believe that "the faith" in 1 Timothy 4:1 is not a reference to "the faith" in Christ Jesus, then please explain what "the faith" is a reference to in that verse and use scripture where Paul uses the phrase "the faith" elsewhere in the new testament to describe some "other faith".

If Paul had meant "the faith" in 4:1 to be faith in Jesus Christ, he would have said so as he does numerous times throughout this letter and his others.

We don't need to go elsewhere in the NT to find out what he meant by "departing from the faith" because he tells us exactly what he means in the rest of his sentence. The part you leave out of his sentence.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (LEB) Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.​

The truth is, everything created by God is good and nothing He created and made holy is to be rejected. Some people have been deceived by demons into thinking things God has made holy by the word of God and prayer are to be rejected. Those deceived people have departed from the faith.

By teaching these things to brothers in Christ, you will be training them in the faith.

By rejecting the teaching that some things God has made holy are to be rejected, you will be rejecting worthless, indeed demonic, teachings.

Kind of puts a damper on the myth that God has rejected (or ever will reject) His people.

 

[FreeGrace]

Works is not mentioned in my post.

Please, then, explain how "bearing fruit unto holiness for receiving eternal life" equals faith in Christ.

To bear fruit obviously requires effort, which we call works.

I asked this:
"f we get eternal life by bearing fruit, then what was the point of Christ going to the cross in the first place?"

To restore to us what Adam lost in the Garden.

What did Adam lose? And be specific, please.

To cleanse us of our sins, and empower us with the Holy Spirit, to live the life of Jesus Christ.

Since Christ died for all, is your view that all have been cleansed of sins, and empowered with the Holy Spirit??

Not to live as immoral slaves to sin, but to practice the righteous life of Him who paid for our sins on the cross, and who dwells within us to express His life through the new nature we receive when we repent and believe the Gospel.

So, He died so that we might choose to "not live as immoral slaves to sin, but to practice the righteous life of Him"?? That's a lot of potential, but no definite reality.

Again, your posts clearly show that your position is that one work for eternal life, as the only way to receive eternal life "in the end".

Unfortunately, there is no Scripture that teaches such a system.

This is what Scripture teaches:
Eph 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. NIV

And this:
Rom 4:4-5

4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. NIV

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said this:
"If the "gifts and calling of God are "right from the passage, what specific verse or verses delineates these so-called gifts to Israel?"

I am, and I am noticing how much my questions are being dodged.


I think it matters VERY MUCH. In fact, that's the whole point of Rom 11:29 and the gifts of God. We need to know what they are, and believe that they are all irrevocable. Not cherry pick which ones we want to be irrevocable and which ones we don't.


Why the desperate need to reduce these gifts of God as yet un-named gifts of God for israel only? Where in the entire epistle would anyone come to the conclusion that Paul never meant for the spiritual gifts or justification or eternal life to be included in Rom 11:29?


I don't think you understand the issue at all.


It is the entire point. The ONLY POINT. To claim otherwise is just another dodge.


Your position can't even name from the context ANY gift for Israel, as if Paul spoke of any gifts for Israel, yet demands that 11:29 is ONLY about those un-named gifts. Amazing.

Paul specifically mentioned 3 gifts of God before he got around to penning 11:29, and your position wants to ignore that. Amazing.


I will never stop asking what these un-named so-called gifts for Israel are, since Paul NEVER even said anything about gifts for Israel.


I'm not interested in your argument. It isn't based on Scripture or logic. Therefore, it is unbiblical and illogical.


Those who want to disprove another's argument only have to point to the truth to refute or disprove what they are saying. Which I've done.

Biblical facts:
The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. No indication that Paul meant to infer what he NEVER spoke about.
Eternal life and justification are gifts of God.
Therefore, eternal life and justification are irrevocable.

"1I say then, God has not rejected His people (so as to revoke his gifts and calling), has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

Paul was a Spirit-filled, saved Israelite walking in the gifts and calling of God. This proves what he's saying, that the gifts and calling of God are not revocable. He's still giving that out to individual Israelites, even though they rejected and killed Jesus and have been cut out of the commonwealth of the kingdom. But you are saying "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" means Paul will still have Christ's eternal life even if he stops believing and trusting in Christ. Which is no where to be found in the context of Romans.

The passage has NOTHING to do with a person, any person, believing, then not believing, but still retaining Christ's eternal life. It has EVERYTHING to do with God not revoking the promises he made to Abraham about his gifts and calling for his offspring Israel (Romans 11:28 NASB). Paul is proof of that. It is because of the promise he made to the Fathers that God has not revoked the promise of his gifts and calling to Abraham's seed, Israel.

Now, you explain, using the passage that what Paul really means by "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB) is that a person can believe, then not believe, and they still get to keep Christ's eternal life.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I am going to post this passage again but on this thread, because OSAS is getting distorted.

1 John 2:18-20 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have the anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

You can't have the Holy Spirit and then not. It says right here that they never were born again.

 

[smaller]

I am going to post this passage again but on this thread, because OSAS is getting distorted.

1 John 2:18-20 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have the anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

You can't have the Holy Spirit and then not. It says right here that they never were born again.

What I might observe as a completely unreasonable and illogical starting point of positions that seek to potentially eternally condemn believers, are false notions that we are or can become "sinless." Which is the basis of all faulty claims. None of us have ever attained the seat of sinlessness. Not even for a moment. Not even a tick of a second. That's really all there is to it. Romans 3:9.

Scripture brings us all to the level of being factual sinners, and we can not and do not and are not capable of removing that seat from ourselves. As Paul clearly lays on himself in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17, etc. The majority of the proponents of potential eternal damnation to believers really do believe they are either from time to time, sinless or in some cases, are just sinless. I've seen this general understanding with "all" of them, hidden beneath the veneer and hard to uncover as it may be. That's what they "really" harbor in their own minds. I find that basis to be dishonest myself.

Just understanding this personally will lead us the other way, away from trying to condemn one another for sin. Which is what the potential eternal condemners of believers try to do.

Does this then mean that we have to leave off from and depart from adverse judgments? Never. The real applications of adverse judgments should always be laid upon our own sorry hides. Always. This is part of how "sin and evil" is kept in checkmate. Hard to understand for a lot of believers. We all tend to "exonerate" ourselves 'completely' in Christ, and that just can not legitimately be done.

We do have to sit in adverse judgments over our own indwelling sin and evil present. And on this side of the ledgers, most believers just don't want to go there. They want to paint their whole picture only rosy. Can't be done.

 

[FreeGrace]

"1I say then, God has not rejected His people (so as to revoke his gifts and calling), has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1 NASB bold and parenthesis mine)

Paul was a Spirit-filled, saved Israelite walking in the gifts and calling of God.

Yet, these so-called "gifts of God to Israel" can't even be cited from the context. There is no reason at all to ignore the ACTUAL gifts that Paul, Spirit-filled and inspired, actually described in Romans, prior to penning 11:29 about the gifts of God being irrevocable.

This proves what he's saying, that the gifts and calling of God are not revocable.

And God's gifts include the ACTUAL gifts that Paul described:
spiritual gifts in 1:1
justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17, and
eternal life in 6:23.

He's still giving that out to individual Israelites, even though they rejected and killed Jesus and have been cut out of the commonwealth of the kingdom.

Giving what out to individual Jews?? What is God "still giving out"?

But you are saying "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" means Paul will still have Christ's eternal life even if he stops believing and trusting in Christ. Which is no where to be found in the context of Romans.

You're just quite upset with the ramifications of what Paul clearly taught: eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

The passage has NOTHING to do with a person, any person, believing, then not believing, but still retaining Christ's eternal life.

While many seem to be quite unhappy with the ramifications of what Paul clearly taught about eternal life being an irrevocable gift, that is exactly what he taught.

It has EVERYTHING to do with God not revoking the promises he made to Abraham about his gifts and calling for his offspring Israel (Romans 11:28 NASB).

OK, so now you've narrowed down these un-named gifts to Israel as "promises". Is that it? Where in the Bible are God's promises described as gifts? I'd sure like to know.

Without any such verses, we will know that God's promises are NOT gifts at all. The gifts would be what has been promised and delivered.

Paul is proof of that. It is because of the promise he made to the Fathers that God has not revoked the promise of his gifts and calling to Abraham's seed, Israel.

Where are God's promises described as gifts? That must be answered if your position is to have any credibility.

Now, you explain, using the passage that what Paul really means by "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB) is that a person can believe, then not believe, and they still get to keep Christ's eternal life.

I don't have to explain anything. I only have to point out what Paul plainly said:
The gifts of God are irrevocable.
Eternal life is a gift of God.

The conclusion is obvious and undeniable.

Your position is that eternal life is quite revocable, yet without any evidence at all.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am going to post this passage again but on this thread, because OSAS is getting distorted.

1 John 2:18-20 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have the anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

You can't have the Holy Spirit and then not. It says right here that they never were born again.

Excuse me, but the passage does NOT SAY they "were never born again". It says they "did not really belong to us". Which is different than your claim.

When believers get involved in false doctrine or error, and they leave, it is because they didn't "belong" in the sense of agreement.

Consider Acts 20:30
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. NIV

We see this play out with those believing Jews of the Pharisees, who preached circumcision for salvation, for which the Jerusalem Council was moved to write a letter to Gentiles in Acts 15:24-29.

Here is the opening sentence: We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. NIV Acts 15:24

The context begins at 15:1 - Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."

We know they were of the party of the Pharisees from v.5 - Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

When the Bible describes people as 'believers' it means saved people. Always.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Excuse me, but the passage does NOT SAY they "were never born again". It says they "did not really belong to us". Which is different than your claim.

When believers get involved in false doctrine or error, and they leave, it is because they didn't "belong" in the sense of agreement.

The 1 John 2 scripture I posted has to do with false believers and the antichrist. Remember, there is a narrow path and few find it.

 

[LovethroughDove]

You can't have the Holy Spirit and then not. It says right here that they never were born again.

John 14:20 One that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

This is when you have been given the Holy Spirit and you are born of Spirit "born again". Belonging to us reference.

 

[FreeGrace]

The 1 John 2 scripture I posted has to do with false believers and the antichrist. Remember, there is a narrow path and few find it.

I believe the verses I shared can indicate that 1 Jn 2 doesn't necessarily mean false believers. Any believer who has gotten entangled in false doctrine would fit the description in 1 Jn 2. As I showed from other verses.