1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[Sinthesis]

Now, regarding #2, where is the evidence that any gift, but especially eternal life, IS revokable.

Ecc 5:19 - Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.
​

Obviously these gifts of God are revocable.

 

[Jim Parker]

where is the evidence that any gift, but especially eternal life, IS revokable.

Given that several people have posted scripture for your benefit which clearly say that eternal life can be lost, where is the evidence that, If Jesus Himself personally told you that eternal life could be lost, you would believe even Him?

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Now, regarding #2, where is the evidence that any gift, but especially eternal life, IS revokable."

Ecc 5:19 - Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.
​

Obviously these gifts of God are revocable.

I'll just ask 2 simple questions:

1. Did Paul write Ecclesiastes?
2. Was this specifically written to Roman believers in the 1st Century?

Since the answer to both of these questions is "no", there is no contextual reason to apply this verse to what Paul wrote in Rom 11:29. This is just cherry picking verses that contain the same phrase, but have absolutely no contextual link whatsoever.

However, if there were a contextual link between Eccl 5:19 and Rom 11:29, then we'd see that the Bible is contradicted internally.

But since Paul clearly and plainly described 3 gifts of God in Romans before he penned 11:29, what he penned in 11:29 is directly linked to all of them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Given that several people have posted scripture for your benefit which clearly say that eternal life can be lost, where is the evidence that, If Jesus Himself personally told you that eternal life could be lost, you would believe even Him?

The first part of your sentence is false, as there are NO verses that 'clearly say that eternal life can be lost'. In EVERY verse that has been presented, it requires assumption to make that conclusion.

However, if Jesus were to personally tell me that eternal life could be lost, I'd simply know that I was having a very bad dream.

Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. I can't imagine why that isn't clear enough to everyone.

Paul said that the gifts of God, which he previously described, are irrevocable. I can't imagine why that isn't clear enough to everyone.

Peter taught that we are born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED, yet people believe that some believers will perish. I can't imagine why.

I believe what Jesus, Peter and Paul taught. Those who believe are eternally secure.

 

[Jim Parker]

The first part of your sentence is false, as there are NO verses that 'clearly say that eternal life can be lost'. In EVERY verse that has been presented, it requires assumption to make that conclusion.

However, if Jesus were to personally tell me that eternal life could be lost, I'd simply know that I was having a very bad dream.

Jesus promised that those who receive eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. I can't imagine why that isn't clear enough to everyone.

Paul said that the gifts of God, which he previously described, are irrevocable. I can't imagine why that isn't clear enough to everyone.

Peter taught that we are born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED, yet people believe that some believers will perish. I can't imagine why.

I believe what Jesus, Peter and Paul taught. Those who believe are eternally secure.

 

[Sinthesis]

I asked this:
"Now, regarding #2, where is the evidence that any gift, but especially eternal life, IS revokable."

I'll just ask 2 simple questions:

1. Did Paul write Ecclesiastes?
2. Was this specifically written to Roman believers in the 1st Century?

Since the answer to both of these questions is "no", there is no contextual reason to apply this verse to what Paul wrote in Rom 11:29. This is just cherry picking verses that contain the same phrase, but have absolutely no contextual link whatsoever.

However, if there were a contextual link between Eccl 5:19 and Rom 11:29, then we'd see that the Bible is contradicted internally.

But since Paul clearly and plainly described 3 gifts of God in Romans before he penned 11:29, what he penned in 11:29 is directly linked to all of them.

1. Is Ecclesiastes wrong? Are not all scriptures inspired by God?
2. So now your argument is that only first century Roman believers have the irrevocable gift of eternal life?

The irony is that if you correctly understood the context of Rom 11:29 then there would be no contradiction.

 

[LovethroughDove]

To born agains:
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This scenario is God holding us in Christ. God can do that and does do that.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

What is it that condemns eternally to the lake of fire? Christ has paid the sin debt for the whole world. Faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the Cross is what applies that which Christ has accomplished, to our account. The only sin that cannot be pardoned is "unbelief" at the point of death. It must be pardoned while we are physically alive. Once faith is established in the cross work of Christ by an individual, that individual is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise according to Ephesian 1:13. It is whether we can break that seal, and who has the power to resurrect that which is dead after it has been crucified with Christ? In Revelation we find that only Christ has the power to break seals, not man, nor Satan. We also read that we are kept by the power of God 1 Peter 1:5. Do we have the power to determine the outcome of what we do? No, we have the power to choose what we do, but we were never given the power to determine the consequences of our actions. God has reserved that for himself.

Once born again it is impossible to be in-born again. Our works will be judged, not to determine entrance into heaven, but to determine rewards or loss of rewards.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where in ch 9-11 did Paul mention anything about receiving the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is a gift of God? Your position keeps talking about context, but it seems your position has no clue what that even means.

"For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1 NASB)

What argument is Paul supporting by this statement? The answer is right in the passage itself. What's the answer?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To born agains:
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This scenario is God holding us in Christ. God can do that and does do that.

Do these promises in any way dismiss the requirement to keep believing as a condition for continued salvation?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In Revelation we find that only Christ has the power to break seals, not man, nor Satan.

And in Revelation we see God breaking the seal of ownership of the person when he takes away their part in the holy city and the tree of life for adding to or subtracting from the words of the Revelation prophecy:

"18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19 NASB bold and underline mine)

We also read that we are kept by the power of God 1 Peter 1:5.

...through faith.
But it is being argued here that we still have the power of God keeping us for the Day of salvation even if we don't have the 'through faith' part.

"5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

Our works will be judged, not to determine entrance into heaven, but to determine rewards or loss of rewards.

That's not what Jesus said.
Matthew 25:31-46 NASB is a glimpse into the Day of Judgment. On that day, at the Judgment, Christ will use our works to determine if we go to the eternal kingdom of God, or to the eternal damnation of the lost, not to determine rewards above and beyond salvation:

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’​

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

(Matthew 25:34-36,41-43 NASB)​

Does this mean Jesus is saying justification/ salvation is secured through doing works of righteousness? No, of course not. What it shows us is our works are the evidence by which we prove ourselves to be saved children of God (Philippians 2:14-16 NASB). But it is being argued in this thread that we can stop believing and produce no righteous work as a result of that unbelief and we will still be saved at the Judgment, completely contradicting the Bible that shows us righteous behavior is the necessary evidence that must accompany salvation to validate that person as being born again (i.e. 1 John 3:6-10 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ecc 5:19 - Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.
​

Obviously these gifts of God are revocable.

Faith--the ability to know something is true that you can't see or know through your own power--is also a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8 NASB). And it also can be lost (i.e. 1 Timothy 1:19 NASB).

 

[FreeGrace]

1. Is Ecclesiastes wrong? Are not all scriptures inspired by God?
2. So now your argument is that only first century Roman believers have the irrevocable gift of eternal life?

The irony is that if you correctly understood the context of Rom 11:29 then there would be no contradiction.

There is no contradiction. Totally different context, which I fully explained.

As to #2, every person in humanity who has received the gift of eternal life, will have it forever. Period.

If eternal life is not irrevocable, how come there are no verses that plainly say that?

And 1 Pet 1:23 says we have been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED. So that means exactly what Jesus said in John 3:16 that those who believe WILL NEVER PERISH, and He said the same thing in John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

dirtfarmer here

What is it that condemns eternally to the lake of fire? Christ has paid the sin debt for the whole world. Faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the Cross is what applies that which Christ has accomplished, to our account. The only sin that cannot be pardoned is "unbelief" at the point of death. It must be pardoned while we are physically alive. Once faith is established in the cross work of Christ by an individual, that individual is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise according to Ephesian 1:13. It is whether we can break that seal, and who has the power to resurrect that which is dead after it has been crucified with Christ? In Revelation we find that only Christ has the power to break seals, not man, nor Satan. We also read that we are kept by the power of God 1 Peter 1:5. Do we have the power to determine the outcome of what we do? No, we have the power to choose what we do, but we were never given the power to determine the consequences of our actions. God has reserved that for himself.

Once born again it is impossible to be in-born again. Our works will be judged, not to determine entrance into heaven, but to determine rewards or loss of rewards.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Where in ch 9-11 did Paul mention anything about receiving the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is a gift of God? Your position keeps talking about context, but it seems your position has no clue what that even means."

"For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1 NASB)

What argument is Paul supporting by this statement? The answer is right in the passage itself. What's the answer?

The answer is in the first part of v.1, which wasn't included in your quote.

However, why ask a totally irrelevant question as a response to my question?

Seems you're fond of asking questions, but not answering questions.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do these promises in any way dismiss the requirement to keep believing as a condition for continued salvation?

There is no requirement to keep believing as a condition for continued salvation.

Salvation and eternal life is given WHEN one believes. And there are NO VERSES that say that salvation or eternal life can be taken away.

The foundation of your position has no evidence from Scripture. Only assumption and presumption.

 

[FreeGrace]

And in Revelation we see God breaking the seal of ownership of the person when he takes away their part in the holy city and the tree of life for adding to or subtracting from the words of the Revelation prophecy:

It seems, rather, that the phrase "takes away their part" isn't understood on your part.

There is no mention of breaking any seal.

Think about this: from what was already noted, to "have a part" in the holy city involves reward. Not every believer will have a part in the holy city. Only those believers who have endured and will be rewarded.

 

[FreeGrace]

Faith--the ability to know something is true that you can't see or know through your own power--is also a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8 NASB).

Even Calvinist scholars acknowledge that the word "it" refers back to salvation, not faith. The gift of God is salvation.

And you've confused the noun 'faith' with a verb. And believing something doesn't require an ability.

And it also can be lost (i.e. 1 Timothy 1:19 NASB).

Yes, one can cease to believe. Jesus noted as much. But there are no verses that say that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. Period.

 

[dirtfarmer]

And in Revelation we see God breaking the seal of ownership of the person when he takes away their part in the holy city and the tree of life for adding to or subtracting from the words of the Revelation prophecy:

"18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19 NASB bold and underline mine)


...through faith.
But it is being argued here that we still have the power of God keeping us for the Day of salvation even if we don't have the 'through faith' part.

"5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)


That's not what Jesus said.
Matthew 25:31-46 NASB is a glimpse into the Day of Judgment. On that day, at the Judgment, Christ will use our works to determine if we go to the eternal kingdom of God, or to the eternal damnation of the lost, not to determine rewards above and beyond salvation:

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’​

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

(Matthew 25:34-36,41-43 NASB)​

Does this mean Jesus is saying justification/ salvation is secured through doing works of righteousness? No, of course not. What it shows us is our works are the evidence by which we prove ourselves to be saved children of God (Philippians 2:15-16 NASB). But it is being argued in this thread that we can stop believing and produce no righteous work as a result of that unbelief and we will still be saved at the Judgment, completely contradicting the Bible that shows us righteous behavior is the necessary evidence that must accompany salvation to validate that person as being born again (i.e. 1 John 3:6-10 NASB).

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

Is Jesus to be king of the church or the bridegroom?

Matthew 25:31 " When the Son of man shall come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, then he shall sit upon the throne of his glory:" Who are the angels that come with him. If He is to judge the nations at this time and the church is part of that, when does 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 happen? " Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matter? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Is it our works in this world that prove to God that we are worthy of salvation? That seems to be what you are saying. If that is true, what happened to " the just shall live by faith"? Is works faith or does faith produce works? Ephesians 2:10 say that "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works." Does this verse stated that we are to do good works, or does it state that we created unto good works?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The answer is in the first part of v.1, which wasn't included in your quote.

Okay, good.

"1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1 NASB)

Paul is using himself to show that God has not altogether rejected the nation of Israel. He being an Israelite proves that.

Now......using the passage, what is it about Paul that demonstrates his acceptance by God?