1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[Runner]

What do you mean by "The core problem is: the Bible"? And precisely how would accepting that "fact" cause one to "experience an entirely new and deeper Christianity"? What exactly would be new about this Christianity?

I thought it was a violation of the Terms of Service to suggest anything other than the literalist position set forth in the site's statement of belief. (There are many species of literalism, of course, but that's a different discussion.)

If it is not, I will simply say that, after 45 years as a Christian, I have come to recognize that the Bible is a very flawed, very human book that nevertheless contains great spiritual truth. It is my observation that much of the dissension within Christianity, and virtually all of the disdain toward evangelical Christianity on the part of non-believers (and other Christians, for that matter), is attributable to the evangelical/fundamentalist community's refusal to recognize that the Bible is a very flawed, very human book - and, indeed, not merely to refuse to recognize this but to dig in their heels and pretend that the Bible is a flawless scientific, historical and spiritual text. It is my observation that within this community "bibliolatry" - worship of the Bible as an idol - pretty much overshadows everything Jesus was actually talking about and is, if I may say so, a disservice to both Jesus and the Bible.

I daresay if you lined up all of the biblical authors (OT and NT) and said, "You know, in 2000 years a large segment of believers are going to be regarding every word you have written as literally the utterance of God, arguing over the precise meaning of each word and trying to reconcile seeming contradictions and inconsistencies between what you have written and what the others here have written," 49% would collapse in laughter, 49% would run screaming from the room, and the other 2% (the delusional ones) would say "Cool!" I'm reminded of the old Star Trek episode where Kirk and his crew stumbled upon an alien civilization that worshipped an old copy of the Manhattan Yellow Pages.

All I meant by my post is how tedious it is to see virtually every thread of substance quickly devolve into a feud as to what the Bible really says, whose interpretation is correct, why my highfalutin' armchair theology is better than your low-brow armchair theology, yada yada yada. The problem is, the Bible is a mishmash of books and is simply not internally consistent. Accepting this fact is very liberating. Recognizing that Christianity is about one's relationship with the living God, and that the Bible is tangential to this, is very liberating. Trying to pretend that Bible is a flawless scientific, historical and spiritual text when it obviously is not, and constantly defending one's "correct" positions against others' "incorrect" positions, is to put oneself and one's Christianity in a straitjacket. Do you think threads like this are what Jesus pictured for His followers? I don't.

I know I personally didn't experience meaningful growth as a Christian until I finally said, "You know, I don't have to live my life in this silly straitjacket of pretend belief."

I just finished "The Problem with Evangelical Theology: Testing the Exegetical Foundations of Calvinism, Dispensationalism, Wesleyanism, and Pentecostalism" by Ben Witherington III. I had great hopes for the book based on the title but, alas, it's just another tedious screed as to why "My understanding of Christianity is right and everyone else's is wrong." It never ends - unless you pull the plug on it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where in the Bible are God's promises described as gifts? I'd sure like to know.

Without any such verses, we will know that God's promises are NOT gifts at all. The gifts would be what has been promised and delivered.

"13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ONATREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:13-14 NASB capitals in original, bold and underline mine)

"38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”" (Acts 2:38-39 NASB bold mine)

This demonstrates how the "gifts and calling of God" (Romans 11:29 NASB) have not been revoked for the nation of Israel, even though they have been rejected and cut out of the tree. God won't revoke them because of the promise he made to the Patriarchs. That's what "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB) means. He is not withholding the promises/gifts because the nation as a whole rejected and killed the Messiah. Paul uses himself as the proof of that. But you are insisting the passage is about a believer can believe then not believe and they still have the gift of eternal life in Christ. No context supports your claim. But I have provided the context of Romans to show you that what I'm saying it means is actually spelled out for us right in the passage.

Your logic is false (that A + B = C thing) because it is guilty of lifting the passage out of context, which Paul calls 'not rightly dividing the word of God'. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in the context in which Paul speaks about that, not in regard to a believer always having the gift of eternal life even if he stops believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am going to post this passage again but on this thread, because OSAS is getting distorted.

1 John 2:18-20 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have the anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

You can't have the Holy Spirit and then not. It says right here that they never were born again.

I'm rushing out the door so I'll make this quick...

'Really' does not appear in the original manuscripts. It has been added for interpretive purposes, but a false purpose because if you look at vs. 24 in that same chapter you'll see that John warns his saved audience not to follow in their footsteps and themselves stop abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

This indicates that these believing people John is addressing can also do as the people did in verse 19. The condition for being in Christ is that you continue in Christ. This is stated in several places in the Bible. Anyone who does not have Christ does not have eternal life (1 John 5:12 NASB).

 

[JLB]

The truth is, everything created by God is good and nothing He created and made holy is to be rejected. Some people have been deceived by demons into thinking things God has made holy by the word of God and prayer are to be rejected. Those deceived people have departed from the faith.

By teaching these things to brothers in Christ, you will be training them in the faith.

By rejecting the teaching that some things God has made holy are to be rejected, you will be rejecting worthless, indeed demonic, teachings.

Kind of puts a damper on the myth that God has rejected (or ever will reject) His people.

I have given the scripture and context, written out showing what the faith is in, from the context of 1 Timothy 3:8 - 4:1.

You have given opinion and refuse to say what the faith is in.

Please explain what the faith is in, from the context of 1 Timothy if not faith in Christ Jesus.


8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of
the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly;15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 3:8-4:1


Please share with us what the faith is "in" , if not in Christ Jesus, and how encouraging the brethren to have faith "in" ___?_____, will encourage them to be nourished in the faith "in" ___?____ and good doctrine.

1. Things the Lord created: food, marriage.
2. Jesus Christ
3. Other

JLB

 

[JLB]

Please, then, explain how "bearing fruit unto holiness for receiving eternal life" equals faith in Christ.

To bear fruit obviously requires effort, which we call works.

I asked this:
"f we get eternal life by bearing fruit, then what was the point of Christ going to the cross in the first place?"

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Expressing the life within of the one who is your Master, proves that God is the One you obey.

IOW, being led by The Spirit, proves that your life is submitted to the Lord to obey His righteousness, of which the by product is a holy lifestyle.


15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23


Those who choose to return to serving their old master, and living according to the sinful desires of the flesh, will receive the wages of this lifestyle which is death.

• Just as Paul starts out his letter, and explains... but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

In the end, here are those to whom will receive eternal life: those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;


For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7



JLB

 

[chessman]

This indicates that these believing people John is addressing can also do as the people did in verse 19.

No it doesn't. It indicates exactly what it says. Which is completely opposite of your claim. Much like your claim that God has rejected His people yet the Text literally says Go dhas not rejected His people. Never.

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

As for you (you anoited children, v18, 20) let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

V24 is a promise, a declaration of what must occur in the future for God to be true to His word. Namely, that everyone who has been anoited from the Holy One must abide with The Father. Anti-OSAS makes the opposite claim. That some who have been anoited by the Holy One will not abide with The Father.

1 John 2:20-25 (LEB) And you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because every lie is not of the truth. Who is the liar except the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This person is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise which he himself promised us: eternal life.​

 

[chessman]

You have given opinion and refuse to say what the faith is in.

Please explain what the faith is in, from the context of 1 Timothy if not faith in Christ Jesus.

I have given you the rest of Paul's sentence (the context) which tells us what Paul means by departing from "the faith".

I have said multiple times what "the faith" is in. You chop off 1/2 of what I said it was in order to make a false claim about what I said it was. Just like you chop off the rest of Paul's sentence that begins in 4:1 and ends at v5.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Where in the Bible are God's promises described as gifts? I'd sure like to know.

Without any such verses, we will know that God's promises are NOT gifts at all. The gifts would be what has been promised and delivered."

"13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ONATREE”— 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:13-14 NASB capitals in original, bold and underline mine)

"38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”" (Acts 2:38-39 NASB bold mine)

This demonstrates how the "gifts and calling of God" (Romans 11:29 NASB) have not been revoked for the nation of Israel, even though they have been rejected and cut out of the tree.

Except the first passage doesn't mention "gifts of God" or even just "gifts". One must assume that blessings are gifts. But where is that described in the Bible? It isn't. The second passage DOES mention the "gift of the Holy Spirit", which is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. And the Bible teaches that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption, so Acts 2:38-39 doesn't help your position either. In fact, Acts 2:38-39 refutes the position that salvation can be lost.

So, once again, where does the Bible speak of "gifts of God to Israel"?

God won't revoke them because of the promise he made to the Patriarchs.

Actually, God wont revoke ANY of His gifts. Which include justification, eternal life, and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

That's what "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB) means.

This claim cannot be substantiated with any evidence from Scripture.

What CAN be substantiated with evidence from Scripture is that justification, eternal life and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit are irrevocable.

He is not withholding the promises/gifts because the nation as a whole rejected and killed the Messiah.

Yet, your position cannot even list or describe ANY so-called "gifts to Israel". Plus, the claim that what these gifts are not being the point, when in fact that is the WHOLE POINT of Rom 11:29.

If it doesn't matter what these "gifts to Israel" are, then why all the effort to deny that eternal life is irrevocable, since Paul plainly described it as a gift in the SAME LETTER he penned that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

But you are insisting the passage is about a believer can believe then not believe and they still have the gift of eternal life in Christ.

If that conclusion bothers anyone, it's only because they don't believe one of 2 things:
1. Either eternal life is NOT a gift of God, or
2. Not all of God's gifts are irrevocable.

So, #1 cannot be refuted. Paul said it plainly. Now, regarding #2, where is the evidence that any gift, but especially eternal life, IS revokable.

No context supports your claim.

The context for Rom 11:29 is anything and everything previously in Paul's letter that relates to that verse. And I've shown 3 places earlier in that letter that do relate to 11:29. Paul specifically described 3 of God's gifts, all of which must be included in 11:29 because Paul NEVER said anything to the contrary.

But I have provided the context of Romans to show you that what I'm saying it means is actually spelled out for us right in the passage.

This comment is incredulous. Paul "spelled out" no such thing. In fact, your position is that what these irrevocable gifts may be isn't the point. Paul never described anything as "gifts of God to Israel". So the claim is not fact at all.

A statement without any evidence is only an opinion.

Your logic is false (that A + B = C thing) because it is guilty of lifting the passage out of context, which Paul calls 'not rightly dividing the word of God'.

"Lifting out of context"?? Really?? Nothing was lifted out. It's your position that wants to remove from Paul's letter what he himself described as a gift of God before he penned 11:29. There is no rational reason to exclude the gift of eternal life from 11:29. It is clearly a gift of God.

btw, eternal life is given to all who believe, even in the OT. So eternal life is inherently included in 11:29 regardless of one's biases.

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in the context in which Paul speaks about that, not in regard to a believer always having the gift of eternal life even if he stops believing.

This has not been shown. Only claimed.

The context for what the "gifts of God" are in 11:29 can be seen in WHAT Paul described as "gifts of God" previously in Romans, which is something your position seems unwilling to do.

There is no reason to ignore what Paul specifically described as God's gifts in Romans before 11:29.

There is every reason to accept all the gifts that Paul noted before we get to 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Since we disagree strongly on what is meant by "death" here, there is nothing left to discuss.

IOW, being led by The Spirit, proves that your life is submitted to the Lord to obey His righteousness, of which the by product is a holy lifestyle.

It seems you're not aware that believers are capable to grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.

Since we disagree strongly on everything related to spiritual growth and fellowship and the filling of the Holy Spirit, there is nothing left to discuss.

Those who choose to return to serving their old master, and living according to the sinful desires of the flesh, will receive the wages of this lifestyle which is death.

I totally agree with this verse, and totally disagree with your interpretation of what this verse means.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

I've given a very reasonable explanation of why this verse cannot be fulfilled by any human being. Since we disagree strongly, there is nothing more to discuss.

 

[smaller]

Believers might realize some time that it is much easier to get agreements on the down side of the ledgers.

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Any takers?



Nah, I didn't think so.

 

[LovethroughDove]

The condition for being in Christ is that you continue in Christ. This is stated in several places in the Bible. Anyone who does not have Christ does not have eternal life (1 John 5:12 NASB).

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

When it is saying remain in him..........this is him as the "Word". I have to go back to the parable of the sower again because this sower parable has to do with the OSAS stance. Those with the good soil do not turn into bad soil.

This verse above states the kind of saving belief that does not let you go. If you have heard him, seen him and touched him..........you can't unbelieve that. It is the kind of good soil belief that will not let you go, ever.

 

[smaller]

1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

When it is saying remain in him..........this is him as the "Word". I have to go back to the parable of the sower again because this sower parable has to do with the OSAS stance. Those with the good soil do not turn into bad soil.

This verse above states the kind of saving belief that does not let you go. If you have heard him, seen him and touched him..........you can't unbelieve that. It is the kind of good soil belief that will not let you go, ever.

The Seed we receive, in faith, is His Seed. He can neither 'fail' or be 'lost.' The ground is where it lands. The ground ain't moving on.

There is a difference between the planting conditions and the seed. Believers often mistake the "seed" for the people receiving it.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

There is only One Victor and only One Seed.

Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Now, who exactly is trying to eternally condemn who? I'd suggest those trying to do so don't know WHO they are trying to condemn quite frankly.

Isaiah 61:3
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

everyone who has been anoited from the Holy One must abide with The Father.

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

IF John's audience LET'S what they heard in the beginning abide in them then they will continue to abide in the Son and the Father. This indicates that you have to continue to believe the word you first heard in the beginning in order to continue to have eternal life and be saved. The words are as plain as day. It's impossible to make the words say something else for people who can plainly see for themselves what they plainly say. Only blind people can be led astray by blind guides.

 

[smaller]

The words are as plain as day. It's impossible to make the words say something else for people who can plainly see for themselves what they plainly say. Only blind people can be led astray by blind guides.

Oh, look! Blind people in the church!

Rev. 3:
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Blind people are those who claim they don't have any of those issues.

Now, if any believer DOES see that they DO have these issues, how apt are they to be to try to eternally condemn other believers? I'd say they'd not be apt to do so AT ALL if they looked upon themselves FIRST and saw what Jesus said they don't see about themselves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no rational reason to exclude the gift of eternal life from 11:29. It is clearly a gift of God.

You're so defensive you can't even see that I'm not doing that.

Paul received the gift of the Holy Spirit. He never had it before (so much for your argument). He, an Israelite (Romans 11:1 NASB) is proof that God did not revoke the gifts/promises/calling of God, even though the Israelites crucified the Messiah and were cut out of the tree (Romans 11:20 NASB). That's what it means for the gifts and calling to not be revocable. But you are ignoring that very context and assigning an alien, unsupported, uninformed, disconnected meaning to "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB), which effectively ignores Paul's own explanation of what that means.

The second passage DOES mention the "gift of the Holy Spirit", which is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. And the Bible teaches that believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption, so Acts 2:38-39 doesn't help your position either. In fact, Acts 2:38-39 refutes the position that salvation can be lost.

So, once again, where does the Bible speak of "gifts of God to Israel"?

Are you able to humbly admit I showed you were dead wrong about promises not being gifts?

Now that we know you were wrong and we can plainly see that the Holy Spirit is a gift/promise from God we can see that Paul has received the gift of the Holy Spirit (among many gifts) proving that God did not revoke his promise to the Patriarchs regarding the blessing of Israel and the whole world.

Paul is living proof of that. There is not any context in Romans to support what you say, that Paul means once a person is saved they can never ever have the gift of eternal life taken away from them. You haven't produced a shred of supporting evidence to defend that argument. Not a shred. You just keep restating your argument.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believers might realize some time that it is much easier to get agreements on the down side of the ledgers.

I read the Bible, not ledgers.

 

[smaller]

I read the Bible, not ledgers.

Which side of the ledgers was I referring to? The scriptural legers, as duly noted in the post itself.

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Oh, that' right. We really can't bring that side of the ledger into discussions about eternal security, can we? We just want to hammer day in and day on the eternal security side and forget that part.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"There is no rational reason to exclude the gift of eternal life from 11:29. It is clearly a gift of God."

You're so defensive you can't even see that I'm not doing that.

First, what in the world would lead one to conclude that my statement is "defensive"?

Second, since your position is that salvation can be lost, the only way that can occur is by having one's eternal life revoked.

Paul received the gift of the Holy Spirit. He never had it before (so much for your argument).

Uh, the same can be said for ALL BELIEVERS when they believe and receive the gift of eternal life. They never had it before. So your point doesn't make any sense to me. [edited]

He, an Israelite (Romans 11:1 NASB) is proof that God did not revoke the gifts/promises/calling of God, even though the Israelites crucified the Messiah and were cut out of the tree (Romans 11:20 NASB).

None of this has anything to do with the fact that the gifts of God are irrevocable, and Paul included eternal life as a gift of God.

That's what it means for the gifts and calling to not be revocable.

What is "it"? That's what WHAT means?? Please be more clear.

But you are ignoring that very context and assigning an alien, unsupported, uninformed, disconnected meaning to "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB), which effectively ignores Paul's own explanation of what that means.

Except Paul never "explained" what you have attached to 11:29.

What is quite astounding is that since Paul described eternal life as a gift of god in 6:23, to describe that as "an alien, unsupported, uninformed, disconnected meaning to "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" is in itself unsupported, uninformed and quite disconnected.

How come the very obvious connection between 6:23 and 11:29, being "gifts of God", isn't being comprehended?

Are you able to humbly admit I showed you were dead wrong about promises not being gifts?

Since there was no evidence, much less proof, there is no need to admit that I am "dead wrong".

But it seems your position is that 6:23 and 11:29 are not connected in any way, EVEN THOUGH both verses speak of the gifts of God.

I think the right thing to do is to humbly admit that I showed you were dead wrong about those verses not being connected.

Now that we know you were wrong and we can plainly see that the Holy Spirit is a gift/promise from God we can see that Paul has received the gift of the Holy Spirit (among many gifts) proving that God did not revoke his promise to the Patriarchs regarding the blessing of Israel and the whole world.

Where in ch 9-11 did Paul mention anything about receiving the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit is a gift of God? Your position keeps talking about context, but it seems your position has no clue what that even means.

Nothing of what you're claiming here is true.

There is not any context in Romans to support what you say, that Paul means once a person is saved they can never ever have the gift of eternal life taken away from them.

The evidence is found in Rom 6:23, where Paul described eternal life as a gift of God. How that keeps being missed is amazing.

You haven't produced a shred of supporting evidence to defend that argument. Not a shred. You just keep restating your argument.

Well, I'm not interested in your false claims, since I have provided clear evidence that eternal life is a gift of God, making that fact directly related to 11:29.

It's your position that has the problem with evidence. There is "not a shred of evidence" in Scripture that salvation or eternal life can be lost, taken away, forfeited, or revoked. So your position is based, not on facts of Scripture, but conjecture, assumption and speculation.

Hardly a sound foundation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Which side of the ledgers was I referring to? The scriptural legers, as duly noted in the post itself.

Where would one get the notion that Scripture is a ledger?

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Oh, that' right. We really can't bring that side of the ledger into discussions about eternal security, can we? We just want to hammer day in and day on the eternal security side and forget that part.

Scripture isn't a ledger. Learn to describe things properly.

 

[smaller]

Where would one get the notion that Scripture is a ledger?

Scripture isn't a ledger. Learn to describe things properly.

Romans 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.