1 Peter 1:23 is about eternal security

[Jethro Bodine]

If my conclusion is wrong, one must prove that either the major or minor premise is false.

All one has to do is show that you are ignoring the context in which Paul says the gifts and calling are irrevocable. Which we have done. The only defense left for your incomplete logic is for you to deny the facts within Romans 11 itself that refute your logic. Which you are doing.

But we already have clear and plain passages that show us that the gift of eternal life can be taken back. Besides the parable of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew 18, we have the warning of Jesus to not keep parts of the Church that can cause believers to go to the fiery hell (Matthew 18, and Mark 9), and the warning of John to not change the words of the Revelation prophecy or else have their part of the holy city taken away (Revelation 22:19 NASB). These are very clear and plain teachings. Denial isn't going to make the truth go away taught in these passages.

 

[JLB]

No, I already explained the passage. The "hope" in v.24 refers back to eternity, not our salvation.

Eternity is not referred to here in this verse.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? Romans 8:24

The object of the hope that Paul refers to is being saved: Salvation.

Just read what what is written.

The hope of our faith [ faith is the substance of things hoped for] is salvation.

We have salvation by faith, and we will attain or see that salvation in all reality, when Jesus Christ returns.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

For now we have salvation by faith in Him, which is the hope we of salvation to come, at His return.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

Salvation and eternal life are what we have in this lifetime by faith in Jesus Christ, when we believe/obey the Gospel.

Those who are justified, declared to be righteous, and are forgiven of our past sins, by His grace are heir of the hope of eternal life.

Eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

This admonition is found all throughout Paul's writings in the new testament.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

All one has to do is show that you are ignoring the context in which Paul says the gifts and calling are irrevocable. Which we have done.

Rather, your efforts have FAILED to show that Paul was referring to gifts only to Israel. In fact, there has been only FAILURE to show that anything Israel has is described as gifts in the first place.

Your charge of my ignoring context is bogus. It is your position that has ignored context. For it is Paul himself who described several gifts of God in Romans before he penned 11:29. So obviously he was including those specific gifts in his comment in 11:29 about God's gifts.

To claim otherwise is totally illlgical.

The only defense left for your incomplete logic is for you to deny the facts within Romans 11 itself that refute your logic.

You've shown NOTHING in Rom 9-11 to "refute" logic. Where does Paul describe anything as gifts to Israel? He didn't. Ever.

Just look at what Paul himself described as gifts:
1:11 spiritual gifts. Are any of these revocable?
5:15,16,17 justification. Is justification revocable?
6:23 eternal life. Is eternal life revocable?

If any of these specific gifts are revocable, we would have specific verses that SAY SO. But your position does not have any such verses.

What your position does have are lots of verses that one MUST ASSUME teach that these gifts are revocable.

My theology is not based on assumption, but on what the Word of God plainly says.

This is what God's Word says:
The gifts of God are irrevocable. Not "some", not "many", not "a few", not "most". All of them, by the LACK of any word that would narrow it down from ALL of God's gifts.

Eternal life is a gift of God.

It is absurd to divorce these facts. Since God's gifts are irrevocable, and eternal life is a gift of God, it is totally obvious that eternal life is irrevocable.

There is nothing in Rom 9-11 that changes this fact.

But we already have clear and plain passages that show us that the gift of eternal life can be taken back.

OK, let's go with your own words: "taken back".

Where are these "clear and plain passages" that show eternal life being "taken back".

Besides the parable of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew 18

Proper exegesis has refuted your misunderstanding.

we have the warning of Jesus to not keep parts of the Church that can cause believers to go to the fiery hell (Matthew 18, and Mark 9)

How many hands, feet, and eyes do you still have, after literally obeying Jesus' commands?

and the warning of John to not change the words of the Revelation prophecy or else have their part of the holy city taken away (Revelation 22:19 NASB). These are very clear and plain teachings.

Your position has no idea what "clear and plain teachings" are.

What is clear is that God's gifts are irrevocable and eternal life is one of those gifts.
Your position has failed to prove otherwise.

Denial isn't going to make the truth go away taught in these passages.

That's what I've been trying to get across.

Quit denying the truth that God's gifts are irrevocable, and that eternal life is a gift of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternity is not referred to here in this verse.

I've already shown otherwise. Your claim is without merit.

Just read what what is written.

I respectfully ask the same of you.

The hope of our faith [ faith is the substance of things hoped for] is salvation.

Maybe in your views, but the hope of my faith is Jesus Christ Himself, the Savior. That's what saves.

No one is saved by hoping for salvation, which seems to be what you're saying.

We have salvation by faith

Not by hope.

and we will attain or see that salvation in all reality, when Jesus Christ returns.

I've already shown otherwise from the text. So go ahead and show from each of the context verses where my comments are in error.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

The Greek word basically means to deliver, or rescue. We will be rescued or delivered from our present physical bodies when He returns

For now we have salvation by faith in Him, which is the hope we of salvation to come, at His return.

By your own words, "for NOW we have salvation". Yet, you continue to claim we only hope for salvation.

Your flip flops are quite reminiscent of so many politicians.

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

I'll just ask one simple question:

Are you living in eternity with your resurrection body NOW?

Salvation and eternal life are what we have in this lifetime by faith in Jesus Christ, when we believe/obey the Gospel.

More flip flop. You've also said we hope for salvation and eternal life at the end of our lives.

Eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

I've already shown that Paul proved that NO ONE has ever been able to fulfill Rom 2:6-8. Just read Rom 3:9, 20, and 23.

 

[JLB]

In 1 Tim 4, Paul teaches

1 Timothy 4:5 (LEB) for it [everything created by God] is made holy by the word of God and prayer.​

Two examples of things Paul specifically lists as things God created for sharing are; 1) marraige and 2) food. If Godly marriages and/or food and/or everything God created are made holy by the word of God, I believe Him.

1 Timothy 4:2 (LEB) by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, ​

Paul says it is liars, seared in their own conscience, that have specifically been led by demonic spirits in these last days that claim things made Holy by the word of God are no longer Holy.

John 6:63-64 (LEB) The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.​

The flesh profits nothing. Jesus knows who relies on their own flesh to make themselves 'holy' who actually betrays Him that actually does make creatures Holy via His word.

John 15:3 (LEB You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. ​

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

The faith is a reference to the faith in Jesus Christ.

The Spirit warns us, that some will depart from the faith, giving heed to a false doctrine of demons.


We as believers have faith in Jesus Christ Himself.

We do not have faith in what He created [food or marriage] by Him.

Those who depart from the faith, no longer have faith in Jesus Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Maybe in your views, but the hope of my faith is Jesus Christ Himself, the Savior. That's what saves.

Yes.

The hope of our faith is salvation is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is our salvation.
Jesus Christ is our eternal life.

JLB

 

[JLB]

That is correct.

Great.

So you agree that OSAS is a false doctrine, since you can depart from the faith by which your salvation is attained, which means you have been moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1

and again

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23


JLB

 

[JLB]

I've already shown otherwise. Your claim is without merit.

You have been shown, that eternity is not mentioned in the context of Romans 8:24

The subject of the hope is salvation.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:18-25


Please point out where the word eternity appears in the context of Romans 8:24

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? Romans 8:24

• Salvation is what Paul says he is hoping for.
• Salvation is what Paul says he is waiting for, with perseverance.

But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:25



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes.

The hope of our faith is salvation is Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is our salvation.
Jesus Christ is our eternal life.JLB

And remember that God's gifts are irrevocable, and eternal life is one of God's gifts.

 

[FreeGrace]

Great.

So you agree that OSAS is a false doctrine, since you can depart from the faith by which your salvation is attained, which means you have been moved away from the hope of the Gospel.

Your conclusions continue to be very erroneous. I've never agreed to what you're claiming here.

I do agree that believers can cease to believe and thereby leave the faith. The Bible says so. But where in the Bible is the teaching that salvation or eternal life can be lost? No where.

Your position reminds me of how the Pharisees thought. In spite of the miracles of Jesus, they rejected the truth that He was deity.

Likewise, presented with the fact that the gifts of God are irrevocable and that eternal life is a gift of God, your position rejects the truth that eternal life is irrevocable.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your charge of my ignoring context is bogus. It is your position that has ignored context. For it is Paul himself who described several gifts of God in Romans before he penned 11:29. So obviously he was including those specific gifts in his comment in 11:29 about God's gifts.

I don't care if Paul is talking about a Burger King Double Whopper with cheese meal. What you're ignoring is he is saying that the gifts and calling of God have not been revoked as to make it so no Israelite can ever under any circumstances partake of the gifts, even though the nation itself has been rejected by God and cut out of the tree because of their unbelief. And Paul uses himself as the evidence of the fact that God has not changed his mind about the gifts and calling of God despite their removal from the tree.

But you have decided the passage is about Paul saying that when a believer stops believing they still have eternal life. And you are certainly free to show where he says that in the passage to prove that's what he means in Romans 11:29 NASB. But you haven't been able to do that. And, of course, you can't do that because it's not there. All you've done is slice the verse out of it's context and decide it means that no one can ever lose eternal life. If that's what Paul was teaching he would not, and could not, use himself as the example of that to illustrate his point.

Do you honestly think it's right to ignore the context of Romans 11:29 NASB and assign a disconnected and unsupported interpretation to the verse? Of course it's not, and the rest of us can see that. It's impossible to lead a person astray who can see. We see clearly what Paul means that the gifts and calling of God have not been revoked. And it has nothing to do with a believer never being able to lose eternal life. But you are certainly free to show us in the passage where he says that.

I predict you are just going to stick with ignoring the context to somehow prove your argument. You need proof, not dogmatic unsupported rhetoric!

 

[FreeGrace]

The subject of the hope is salvation.

Nope. The subject of hope is eternity. What comes AFTER physical life. The NEXT life. Clearly from the context. Which I clearly pointed out.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

What is the "this hope"? It's eternity, explained by the previous verses.

Do you have all the things mentioned in the previous verses that are about eternity NOW? Of course not. But you're hoping for them.

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:18-25

Ok, once again.
v.18 refers to eternity "the glory which shall be revealed in us". Has that happened yet? No.
v.19 refers to a time when the sons of God will be revealed, which is what creation is eagerly waiting for. Has that happened yet? No.
v.21 refers to creation being delivered from the bondage of corruption. Has that happened yet? No.
v.23 refers to believers awaiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. Has that happened yet? No.
v.24 says FOR we were saved in THIS HOPE. What hope? The hope for what has NOT happened yet, but WILL HAPPEN, of which we have a confident expectation.

Now, the passage has been explained twice. There is no excuse for not understanding it.

Please point out where the word eternity appears in the context of Romans 8:24

I'm always fascinated by your demand for specific wording from my posts, but when asked for specific wording from your posts, they are NEVER provided. Why the double standard, if I may ask?

What does appear in Rom 8:18-25 are characteristics of eternity. If that can be refuted, please be my guest.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? Romans 8:24

• Salvation is what Paul says he is hoping for.
• Salvation is what Paul says he is waiting for, with perseverance.

But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:25

Nope. What is confidently expected is what will happen in eternity, as just shown.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't care if Paul is talking about a Burger King Double Whopper with cheese meal.

I don't care either. What's the point?

What you're ignoring is he is saying that the gifts and calling of God have not been revoked as to make it so no Israelite can ever under any circumstances partake of the gifts,

How come those words aren't in the text or context, if that is what Paul is SAYING??

What can't be refuted is the clear and solid logic from what Paul DID SAY.

Major premise: the gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Minor premise: eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
Conclusion: eternal life is irrevocable. Obviously.

But you have decided the passage is about Paul saying that when a believer stops believing they still have eternal life.

I know that really bothers those of your position, but the FACT remains:

Major premise: the gifts of God are irrevocable.
Minor premise: eternal life is a gift of God.
Conclusion: eternal life is irrevocable.

That is what Paul taught.

And you are certainly free to show where he says that in the passage to prove that's what he means in Romans 11:29 NASB. But you haven't been able to do that.

Of course I did that. And, of course, no one from your position has been able to refute the logic or the conclusion.

Rather, just like the Pharisees, who saw the miracles of Jesus continued to deny His deity and Messiahship, those of your position continue to deny the fact that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

And, of course, you can't do that because it's not there. All you've done is slice the verse out of it's context and decide it means that no one can ever lose eternal life.

So, what does it mean to say that "the gifts of God are irrevocable"? In general, I mean. Please answer.

Do you honestly think it's right to ignore the context of Romans 11:29 NASB and assign a disconnected and unsupported interpretation to the verse?

Throwing out accusations does no good. One needs evidence for that to stick. Which no one from your position has done yet.

I've shown these facts:
The gifts of God are irrevocable. Agree or disagree.
Eternal life is a gift of God. Agree or disagree.

My guess is that this will not be answered, because we all know what the conclusion of that will be. That eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. And, like the Pharisees, who in spite of seeing the miracles directly, still rejected the deity of Jesus, just as those of your position continue to reject the truth that eternal life is irrevocable.

The problem is that your position just doesn't like the conclusion that comes from the facts of Scripture.

Of course it's not, and the rest of us can see that. It's impossible to lead a person astray who can see. We see clearly what Paul means that the gifts and calling of God have not been revoked.

If you do see clearly, then WHY continue to reject the truth that eternal life, a gift from God, is irrevocable?

And it has nothing to do with a believer never being able to lose eternal life.

It has everything to do about that.

But you are certainly free to show us in the passage where he says that.

I've shown it from all that Paul wrote. Truth isn't limited to just one context within a whole book. How silly.

I predict you are just going to stick with ignoring the context to somehow prove your argument.

What anyone predicts is totally irrelevant. It is the truth that matters, and which your position simply refuses to accept. Just like the Pharisees who saw the miracles of Jesus yet still rejected His deity.

You need proof, not dogmatic unsupported rhetoric!

How about dogmatic supported Scripture?

Here's a fact:
The gifts of God are irrevocable. Do you agree with this?
Eternal life is a gift of God. Do you agree with this?

The ONLY conclusion is this: eternal life, being a gift of God, is irrevocable. But I know that you do not agree with this.

So, the only rational explanation has to be that either of the 2 facts can be proven false.

So, which fact is false?

Are the gifts of God revocable? If so, please quote any verse that actually says so.

Is eternal life NOT a gift of God? Well, that has already been established, so it cannot be refuted.

So, when one speaks of "dogmatic unsupported rhetoric", you've just described your own position. lol

 

[chessman]

The faith is a reference to the faith in Jesus Christ.

It would be more convincing toward your claim if Paul would have actually said the faith in Jesus Christ in this passage. He did not.

The use of a definite article in NT Greek means that the noun it goes with (faith in this case) is definitely specific to the sentence's grammar. It is NOT a title such as we sometimes use in English to distinguish a white house from The White House.

Notice how Paul makes it clear when he means faith in Christ Jesus thru his grammar (not yours).

1 Timothy 1:12-14 (LEB) I give thanks to the one who strengthens me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful, placing me into ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, but I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord abounded with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.​

1 Tim 4:1-5 is one long sentence in the Greek and deserves to be exegeted as such. It is obvious what he means by "departing the faith" from the rest of the sentence and it's not departing from faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Jim Parker]

I SAW IN THEM.

Of course you did.
You have a nice day.

 

[Sinthesis]

What we have here is a revocable gift of God. Isn't proof texting fun?

Ecc 5:19 - Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.​

 

[Runner]

It is really rather unfortunate - and indeed, somewhat un-godlike - that in matters of such importance God either could not or chose not to express Himself clearly enough that there would at least be unanimous agreement - among believers anyway - as to what His message to humanity actually is. God works in mysterious ways, as we all know - but at least insofar as His Word is concerned, one might reasonably have expected greater clarity. But no, people who at least think they are Christians spend at least 50% of their time arguing with other people who at least think they are Christians as to what it is God is actually saying in His literally true, infallible Word. It's almost enough to make one suspect There Is Something Fundamentally Wrong with this sort of "Christianity." My guess would be that the sort of bibliolatry that prevails at places such as this is pretty much the antithesis of the Good News that Jesus was talking about.

 

[smaller]

It is really rather unfortunate - and indeed, somewhat un-godlike - that in matters of such importance God either could not or chose not to express Himself clearly enough that there would at least be unanimous agreement - among believers anyway - as to what His message to humanity actually is. God works in mysterious ways, as we all know - but at least insofar as His Word is concerned, one might reasonably have expected greater clarity. But no, people who at least think they are Christians spend at least 50% of their time arguing with other people who at least think they are Christians as to what it is God is actually saying in His literally true, infallible Word. It's almost enough to make one suspect There Is Something Fundamentally Wrong with this sort of "Christianity." My guess would be that the sort of bibliolatry that prevails at places such as this is pretty much the antithesis of the Good News that Jesus was talking about.

Churches have brought it on themselves, teaching a Savior who can not save. And instead putting that burden on the back of believers rather than Christ Himself. It's nothing more than the Grace and Mercy of God in Christ, tortured into "new and various laws" devised of their own makings and used to keep their masses in perpetual fears. There's hardly a one in the lot of them who even know they are saved, other than "at the moment" by their assessment of themselves, and not of Christ.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

 

[JLB]

I've already shown otherwise. Your claim is without merit.

Your going to have to do better than state assumptions in the face of the truth from the scriptures, as all can see that is what you are doing since you have proven that "eternity" is not found in the verses that were quoted nor in the context nor in verse 24.

Your left with your logical fallacy with no scriptures or proof.

Those who have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, have the hope of salvation to come, while we wait for it with perseverance.

For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? Romans 8:24

• Salvation is what Paul says he is hoping for.
• Salvation is what Paul says he is waiting for, with perseverance.

But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:25



JLB

 

[chessman]

Churches have brought it on themselves, teaching a Savior who can not save.

Fig leaves. It's an old, old story.