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12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

Kathi said:
I sure can tell you who is the author of confusion of God's words.Satan also is the author of lies.
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I was really hoping we would not have this kind of post. Please try to understand that it is simply unacceptable to try to support your case by implying that those who disagree with you are somehow pawns of Satan. This is what your post strongly implies. In no other domain of human activity would this strategy be tolerated. Imagine a scenario where scientist A disputes the theory of scientist B by presenting evidence that casts doubt on B's theory. If scientist B responded by suggesting that A was somehow in league with the devil,....well I think we all know how this would end.

Please. When we argue our points by imputing that those who disagree with us are in league with the devil, or, as another poster has maintained, that they are not listening to the Holy Spirit, the entire discussion departs from the path of reason. How can I possibly dispute a claim that I am in league with the devil? Or that I do not have the Holy Spirit? These are entirely groundless claims that do not help any of us get closer to the truth on these matters.
 
Drew said:
I was really hoping we would not have this kind of post. Please try to understand that it is simply unacceptable to try to support your case by implying that those who disagree with you are somehow pawns of Satan. This is what your post strongly implies. In no other domain of human activity would this strategy be tolerated. Imagine a scenario where scientist A disputes the theory of scientist B by presenting evidence that casts doubt on B's theory. If scientist B responded by suggesting that A was somehow in league with the devil,....well I think we all know how this would end.

Please. When we argue our points by imputing that those who disagree with us are in league with the devil, or, as another poster has maintained, that they are not listening to the Holy Spirit, the entire discussion departs from the path of reason. How can I possibly dispute a claim that I am in league with the devil? Or that I do not have the Holy Spirit? These are entirely groundless claims that do not help any of us get closer to the truth on these matters.
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Do you have the Holy Spirit in you?
 
Butch5 said:
That's one of the things that most puzzles me about this. Eternal life promised only to the believer, yet if the wicked b urn forever then they too must receive eternal life. The Scriptures say no such thing. To me this pretty much seals the deal.
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Butch,
Jesus taught of Heaven and He taught of Hell and the curious part is He taught, much, more about Hell than He did of Heaven, where, the four Gospels and in the Revelation of Jesus, the Christ.
 
We live in a temporal world Drew we think with temporal thoughts eternal life is eternal eternal punishment is eternal God is eternal you either live in the spirit "our spirit is eternal" "the flesh isn't" or you live in the flesh and never the twain shall meet.. Sorry if your offended i didn't write the bible God did.. and i thank God every waking moment for sending his only begotten Son to save us from the same fate reserved for Satan..

tob
 
reba said:
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
G615
ἀποκτείνω
apokteinō
ap-ok-ti'-no
From G575 and κτείνω kteinō (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively to destroy: - put to death, kill, slay.
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I hate picking on Reba...... (Not really)

God is able to destroy both Body and soul in Gehenna. Well, No body is making it to "hell" The body returns to earth as dust, and though a soul gets destroyed, nothing here about the spirit (Body, soul and we are spirit beings)

Jesus is introducing a concept here. Seoul or the Greek Hades. Since the body can't make it to heaven or Hell (Seoul, Hades) He talked about Gehenna. Gehenna was located south of the city in the Valley of Himmon or something like that. The place was introduced to us in Joshua, and continual fires burned there to other Gods for sacrifices, trash piles, what not

It was a well known place.

Jesus said............... God is ABLE.

Jesus never said God did, would, or will in the future.

God is able to do anything. Does not mean God does it.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
(Mat 3:9)
(Done deal)

And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
(Act 20:32)
(Can be so)

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(Rom 11:23)
(If they believe)

All things are possible to you father, if it be thy will take this cup from me.
(Denied)

Saying God is Able, does not indicate an operation of something or a way God does things. Some God is able were conditional, some never happened, and some God could if He wanted.

Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
(Gen 18:14)

Butch5 said:
No it doesn't. There are plenty of passages that tell us the wicked are destroyed or perish, however, there are no passages that say the wicked will burn forever.

It's already been shown that "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, so the passage in Mat 25 doesn't mean eternal. The problem comes from trying to force a modern concept on an ancient writing.
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The wicked are destroyed from the earth. Earth Butch. Any reference to anything being destroyed is God destroying the body on Earth.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Ecc 12:7)

We are spirit beings Butch, the body gets destroyed, spirits don't get destroyed. No scripture tell us spirits can be destroyed.
The spirit of man goes back to God, and gets judged.

Jer 46:8 Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof.

Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
(Psa 21:10)

We don't change the concept and add things that are not there. Nothing gets destroyed in the realm of the spirit, it's eternal, including us.

Aionios:
Is a Greek Adjective. It's not the Male noun Aion which is a starting Age and ending Age. (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)

(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)

Aionios does not mean eternal or forever unless left alone. It literally means wait here until defined. Welcome to Greek Adjectives!!! :)

Conditional Case:
For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;(Aionios)
(Phm 1:15)

They wait, until they wait no more. I am sure they are still not waiting for him. This denotes that you wait until.

Attributive Case: Adjective enhances the Noun

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (Aionios) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26)

If Anionios does not mean eternal, then you believe God won't be around long either. Just a age old God that goes away at the end of the age.

Common sense Case:
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal (Aionios) redemption for us.
(Heb 9:12)

If Anionios is not a Greek Adjective that means forever until defined by it's enhanced Male Noun or change the article, then What happens to us once that redemption runs out? What do we do then?

(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)

(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)
 
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Kathi said:
Do you have the Holy Spirit in you?
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Of course. As I understand scripture, all those who have Jesus as Lord are given the Spirit.

Please do not try to make this about me - my post was, I believe, entirely correct. (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)
 
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turnorburn said:
We live in a temporal world Drew we think with temporal thoughts eternal life is eternal eternal punishment is eternal God is eternal you either live in the spirit "our spirit is eternal" "the flesh isn't" or you live in the flesh and never the twain shall meet.. Sorry if your offended i didn't write the bible God did.. and i thank God every waking moment for sending his only begotten Son to save us from the same fate reserved for Satan..

tob
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How, exactly is this an argument that the Bible teaches eternal torment for the lost? I simply cannot follow the logic. Yes we live in a temporal world. And yes God is eternal. And yes, Paul draws a "flesh-spirit" distinction, but I need to emphasize that this is decidedly not a "physical vs nonphysical" distinction. For Paul - and I am prepared to argue the point in detail - "flesh" usually denotes "fallen humanity" and not "embodied physicality.
 
Drew said:
I was really hoping we would not have this kind of post. Please try to understand that it is simply unacceptable to try to support your case by implying that those who disagree with you are somehow pawns of Satan. This is what your post strongly implies. In no other domain of human activity would this strategy be tolerated. Imagine a scenario where scientist A disputes the theory of scientist B by presenting evidence that casts doubt on B's theory. If scientist B responded by suggesting that A was somehow in league with the devil,....well I think we all know how this would end.

Please. When we argue our points by imputing that those who disagree with us are in league with the devil, or, as another poster has maintained, that they are not listening to the Holy Spirit, the entire discussion departs from the path of reason. How can I possibly dispute a claim that I am in league with the devil? Or that I do not have the Holy Spirit? These are entirely groundless claims that do not help any of us get closer to the truth on these matters.
Click to expand...
Drew,
I see no personal intent in that post and the statement is, across the board, true.
 
When we leave this world Drew we are launched into eternity, I've been on this planet close to 70 years and I've yet to meet a Christian that didn't believe in eternal life and eternal punishment, I've even met a few that were assassinated for preaching it..

tob
 
turnorburn said:
When we leave this world Drew we are launched into eternity, I've been on this planet close to 70 years and I've yet to meet a Christian that didn't believe in eternal life and eternal punishment, I've even met a few that were assassinated for preaching it..

tob
Click to expand...
OK, but this is not really an argument for the correctness of the eternal torment position.
 
Brother Mike said:
I hate picking on Reba...... (Not really)

God is able to destroy both Body and soul in Gehenna. Well, No body is making it to "hell" The body returns to earth as dust, and though a soul gets destroyed, nothing here about the spirit (Body, soul and we are spirit beings)

Jesus is introducing a concept here. Seoul or the Greek Hades. Since the body can't make it to heaven or Hell (Seoul, Hades) He talked about Gehenna. Gehenna was located south of the city in the Valley of Himmon or something like that. The place was introduced to us in Joshua, and continual fires burned there to other Gods for sacrifices, trash piles, what not

It was a well known place.

Jesus said............... God is ABLE.

Jesus never said God did, would, or will in the future.

God is able to do anything. Does not mean God does it.

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
(Mat 3:9)
(Done deal)

And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
(Act 20:32)
(Can be so)

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
(Rom 11:23)
(If they believe)

All things are possible to you father, if it be thy will take this cup from me.
(Denied)

Saying God is Able, does not indicate an operation of something or a way God does things. Some God is able were conditional, some never happened, and some God could if He wanted.

Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
(Gen 18:14)

Butch5 said:
No it doesn't. There are plenty of passages that tell us the wicked are destroyed or perish, however, there are no passages that say the wicked will burn forever.

It's already been shown that "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, so the passage in Mat 25 doesn't mean eternal. The problem comes from trying to force a modern concept on an ancient writing.
Click to expand...

The wicked are destroyed from the earth. Earth Butch. Any reference to anything being destroyed is God destroying the body on Earth.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Ecc 12:7)

We are spirit beings Butch, the body gets destroyed, spirits don't get destroyed. No scripture tell us spirits can be destroyed.
The spirit of man goes back to God, and gets judged.

Jer 46:8 Egypt riseth up like a flood, and his waters are moved like the rivers; and he saith, I will go up, and will cover the earth; I will destroy the city and the inhabitants thereof.

Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.
(Psa 21:10)

We don't change the concept and add things that are not there. Nothing gets destroyed in the realm of the spirit, it's eternal, including us.

Aionios:
Is a Greek Adjective. It's not the Male noun Aion which is a starting Age and ending Age. (Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)

(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)

Aionios does not mean eternal or forever unless left alone. It literally means wait here until defined. Welcome to Greek Adjectives!!! :)

Conditional Case:
For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;(Aionios)
(Phm 1:15)

They wait, until they wait no more. I am sure they are still not waiting for him. This denotes that you wait until.

Attributive Case: Adjective enhances the Noun

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (Aionios) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26)

If Anionios does not mean eternal, then you believe God won't be around long either. Just a age old God that goes away at the end of the age.

Common sense Case:
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal (Aionios) redemption for us.
(Heb 9:12)

If Anionios is not a Greek Adjective that means forever until defined by it's enhanced Male Noun or change the article, then What happens to us once that redemption runs out? What do we do then?

(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)

(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment. Obadiah)
Click to expand...


Actually, We are not spirit beings. A look Gen.2:7 will show how man was created. The breath/spirit that is in man is God's not man's and it is God's breath/spirit that returns to Him. The "MAN" returns to the dust.

God speaking to Adam.

19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return." (Gen 3:19 NKJ)

He didn't say for a spirit you are in a dust body, He said, "for dust you are".

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen 2:7 NKJ)

Notice what God formed man from, the dust of the ground. God breathed "HIS" breath/spirit into the man and the man became a living soul. How do we know it's God's breath/spirit?

14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. (Job 34:14-15 NKJ)

If God takes back "HIS" spirit the man returns to the dust.

Ezekiel give us a picture of the resurrection.

NKJ Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry.
3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them,`O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 `Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
6 "I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'"
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say,`Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.
14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'"
(Eze 37:1-14 NKJ)

Here we have a something similar to the creation of man, the recreation of man. Notice after God recreates these men what happens. God said, ""I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live," The word Spirit here is the word breath. He said, "I will put my breath in you and you shall live. He didn't say I'll put your spirit back into you. It is God's breath/spirit that gives life. Man is not a spirit, he is flesh, consider Jesus' words.

37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
(Luk 24:37-39 NKJ)

Notice Jesus' words, "a spirit does not have flesh and bones." Man is not and according to what Jesus said here cannot be a spirit.

Regarding aionios, one only needs to briefly look at the Scriptures to conclude that aionios doesn't and can't mean eternal.
 
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This should never need to be posted on a Christian web site because the Nave's Topical Bible Study is dirt cheep in the hard back edition and it is freely available on the web. I, however, present it here for the nay sayers. This study needs completion and not nit picking coupled with crying out to God in prayer before, during and after completion of this study.

Our LibraryConcordancesNave's Topical BibleHell
Hell
 
[T] indicates this entry was also found in Torrey's Topical Textbook
indicates this entry was also found in Baker's Evangelical Dictionary
[E] indicates this entry was also found in Easton's Bible Dictionary
[J] indicates this entry was also found in Jack Van Impe's Prophecy Dictionary
indicates this entry was also found in Smith's Bible Dictionary
 
Your telling us that the spirit we're born with isn't ours, its Gods spirit, and when i die it goes back to him?.. According to scripture Gods holy spirit doesn't come to live in us until we are born again.. if your correct with that thinking then everything I've learned is false, I've not heard this teaching, could you elaborate, where your learned this doctrine?

Thanks..

tob

*edit: i forgot to add your name Butch, sorry
 
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