12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

[Willie T]

Oh for cryin' out loud. We all know that only "our" own esoteric interpretations are the truly correct ones. What fool would follow a way of thinking if he thought another way was right, instead? And who is going to agree someone else might be right if he has convinced himself that HE is the only one who is right?

 

[Butch5]

That's because I take all of the Bible seriously. Luke 16:22-26 (ESV) states:

'The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (ESV)​

The fact demonstrated in this story of the rich man and Lazarus is that there is conscious torment in Hades for the unrighteous rich man after death. In fact, this torment was of such a nature that in the following verses he was pleading for someone to go to the father's house to warn his 5 brothers about the torment, lest they should come to that place of torment. It was so severe he did not want his brothers there.

That is definitely not describing annihilation for unbelievers after death. Death is the cessation of physical existence but not the cessation of life.

For the eternal dimension, we need to go to other Scriptures such as Matt 25:46 (ESV).

Hi Oz,

I would suggest that the parable of the rich man has nothing to do with the afterlife. The parable is one in a series given by Jesus. Notice who Jesus is speaking to, it's the Pharisees. The passage is actually about the destruction of the priesthood. Notice prior to this parable Jesus give the parable of the unfaithful steward, then He says, the Law and the prophets were until John, then He says anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, more unfaithfulness. Then He goes into the parable about the rich man, (which by the way is never said to be unrighteous). Jesus told His disciples, if you hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better for you to enter life maimed than to be cast into Gehenna with two hands. From this we can surmise that Jesus did in fact know where the place of fiery torment is, it's Gehenna. One has to wonder then why Jesus said the rich man was in Hades, not Gehenna, in the flame. This is a key point to the meaning of the parable. If you search the Scriptures for a passage that speaks of Hades and fire or burning we find this,

22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deu 32:22 KJV)

This passage is in a section of Scripture where God told Moses how the children of Israel would turn away from Him and how he would react. Since Jesus knew that the place of fiery torment was Gehenna and not Hades, it seems rather likely that Jesus was referring to this passage when giving the parable of the rich man. Consider the rich man represents the leadership of Israel and the priesthood, the details of the parable fit. The rich man was clothed in purple and fine linen, he had 5 brothers (Levi, head of the priestly tribe, had 5 brothers, the rich man is in the flame in Hades, not Gehenna, Jesus never said the rich man was evil or unrighteous, only that he was rich. Jesus never said that Lazarus was a believer or that he was righteous, etc. There are just too many things that don't fit for this to be an actual event.


You mentioned Mat. 25:46.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mat 25:46 KJV)

A few verses earlier Jesus said what this punishment was.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41 KJV)

Aionios fire, the English translators translate it "eternal" however, that in not correct. Jude tells us what aionios fire is.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)

It's evident that Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today, thus aionios fire is not eternal fire.

 

[Butch5]

Drew,

I profoundly disagree with you. Remember the warning in the Garden in Gen 2:17 (ESV). In the day that Adam & Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they 'shall surely die'. Did they die physically? Of course not. So 'die' in the Bible does not necessarily mean physical death. When I die not too long from now, my physical body will die to be buried, but I will not die. I will live eternally with the Lord.

Hi Oz,

Yes, they did die physically. Also, when a man dies, God's spirit returns to Him and the man returns to the dust. You're argument is based on a concept of man that the Bible doesn't teach. The Bible teaches that man is dust, not a spirit.

 

[chessman]

So far, all these can easily refer to physical death. Not eternal death.

Context of praise is about His everlasting Kingdom.

Psalm 145:13 ... 20 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,And Your dominion endures throughout all generations. ...​

...

The Lord keeps all who love Him,
​

(keeps them from dying a physical death? Hardly.)

But all the wicked He will destroy.​

(Destroy meaning a physical death only? Hardly. )

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Oz,

I would suggest that the parable of the rich man has nothing to do with the afterlife. The parable is one in a series given by Jesus.

This wasn't a parable. Jesus named names. People that were known in Scripture; Abraham. Jesus doesn't name names in His parables. They are general stories with a principle. In the story of Lazarus, Jesus gave us a glimpse of the afterlife, which squares with all the other verses about torment for the unbeliever.

[QUOE] Notice who Jesus is speaking to, it's the Pharisees. The passage is actually about the destruction of the priesthood. Notice prior to this parable Jesus give the parable of the unfaithful steward, then He says, the Law and the prophets were until John, then He says anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, more unfaithfulness. Then He goes into the parable about the rich man, (which by the way is never said to be unrighteous). Jesus told His disciples, if you hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better for you to enter life maimed than to be cast into Gehenna with two hands. From this we can surmise that Jesus did in fact know where the place of fiery torment is, it's Gehenna. One has to wonder then why Jesus said the rich man was in Hades, not Gehenna, in the flame. This is a key point to the meaning of the parable. If you search the Scriptures for a passage that speaks of Hades and fire or burning we find this,[/QUOTE]
Actually, He was warning the Pharisees where they were headed if they stayed on their course.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mat 25:46 KJV)

A few verses earlier Jesus said what this punishment was.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41 KJV)

Aionios fire, the English translators translate it "eternal" however, that in not correct. Jude tells us what aionios fire is.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jud 1:7 KJV)

Seems Jude was referring to the residents of those cities, not eh physical cities themselves.

It's evident that Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today, thus aionios fire is not eternal fire.

How do you know that the residents aren't still burning today?

 

[FreeGrace]

Context of praise is about His everlasting Kingdom.

Psalm 145:13 ... 20 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,And Your dominion endures throughout all generations. ...​

...

The Lord keeps all who love Him,
​

(keeps them from dying a physical death? Hardly.)

Depends on context. Many times David spoke of God's "salvation". He was referring to the physical deliverance from his enemies.

But all the wicked He will destroy

.

(Destroy meaning a physical death only? Hardly. )

Sure. In context. Plus, depending on the actual word, there are figurative meanings.

 

[jeff77]

Are you saying jeff that the unbelievers will still exist in hell forever and ever in a eternal punishment?

Yes, it doesn't make sense for someone to not exist for the punishment. At least not to me anyway.

 

[Kathi]

Yes, it doesn't make sense for someone to not exist for the punishment. At least not to me anyway.

Yes,I agree.What is the Judgment for?Are those who are going to heaven just going to die too?Why isn't heaven looked at like the annihilationists look at hell?

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes,I agree.What is the Judgment for?Are those who are going to heaven just going to die too?Why isn't heaven looked at like the annihilationists look at hell?

There are different versions of this "NO HELL PUNISHMENT" belief. If there is no Eternal punishment, then there can not possibly be any Eternal life.

And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the upright into eternal life.
(Mat 25:46)

one is to be punished forever, the other is to have life in Jesus forever. It takes hunting obscure scriptures, Greek, Hebrew and lots of post to mess up a simple statement Jesus said.

who is the author of confusion? I can tell you who it's not.

Blessings.

 

[Butch5]

This wasn't a parable. Jesus named names. People that were known in Scripture; Abraham. Jesus doesn't name names in His parables. They are general stories with a principle. In the story of Lazarus, Jesus gave us a glimpse of the afterlife, which squares with all the other verses about torment for the unbeliever.

Yes, Jesus did use names, there's are reason. Jesus told the parable to the Pharisees, look what else He said.

11 "And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
12 "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mat 8:11-12 NKJ)

The rich man was one of the sons of the kingdom, where was he and what did he see?

Actually, He was warning the Pharisees where they were headed if they stayed on their course.

Then why was the rich man in Hades instead of Gehenna?

Seems Jude was referring to the residents of those cities, not eh physical cities themselves.

Then where are the cities?

How do you know that the residents aren't still burning today?

Because no one is there yet, the judgment hasn't happened yet

 

[Butch5]

There are different versions of this "NO HELL PUNISHMENT" belief. If there is no Eternal punishment, then there can not possibly be any Eternal life.

And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the upright into eternal life.
(Mat 25:46)

one is to be punished forever, the other is to have life in Jesus forever. It takes hunting obscure scriptures, Greek, Hebrew and lots of post to mess up a simple statement Jesus said.

who is the author of confusion? I can tell you who it's not.

Blessings.

No it doesn't. There are plenty of passages that tell us the wicked are destroyed or perish, however, there are no passages that say the wicked will burn forever.

It's already been shown that "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, so the passage in Mat 25 doesn't mean eternal. The problem comes from trying to force a modern concept on an ancient writing.

 

[Willie T]

No it doesn't. There are plenty of passages that tell us the wicked are destroyed or perish, however, there are no passages that say the wicked will burn forever.

It's already been shown that "aionios" doesn't mean eternal, so the passage in Mat 25 doesn't mean eternal. The problem comes from trying to force a modern concept on an ancient writing.

Brother, is THAT ever a profound truth with so much misunderstood meaning that all kinds of differing denominations try to read into words written to a completely different culture thousands of years ago.

 

[Butch5]

Brother, is THAT ever a profound truth with so much misunderstood meaning that all kinds of differing denominations try to read into words written to a completely different culture thousands of years ago.

Hi Willie,

I really think that is a big problem in the modern church. That's the reason I try to go back and look at history and see how things were understood back then. The west thinks along the lines of the Greeks and Paul said the gospel was foolishness to the Greeks. I seek to try to understand the Jewish concepts and background from which the Gospel came.

 

[Willie T]

This wasn't a parable. Jesus named names. People that were known in Scripture; Abraham. Jesus doesn't name names in His parables.

About 20 minutes of study should clear up that fallacy for you. It will blow your mind to learn the relationship Abraham had with Lazarus in real life.

 

[Kathi]

There are different versions of this "NO HELL PUNISHMENT" belief. If there is no Eternal punishment, then there can not possibly be any Eternal life.

And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the upright into eternal life.
(Mat 25:46)

one is to be punished forever, the other is to have life in Jesus forever. It takes hunting obscure scriptures, Greek, Hebrew and lots of post to mess up a simple statement Jesus said.

who is the author of confusion? I can tell you who it's not.

Blessings.

I sure can tell you who is the author of confusion of God's words.Satan also is the author of lies.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It's evident that Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today, thus aionios fire is not eternal fire.

The residents are!

 

[Kathi]

The residents are!

There are no residents yet in hell.But there will be after the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Oh for cryin' out loud. We all know that only "our" own esoteric interpretations are the truly correct ones. What fool would follow a way of thinking if he thought another way was right, instead? And who is going to agree someone else might be right if he has convinced himself that HE is the only one who is right?

Bro,
All they have are their esoteric interpretations when they do not seek and then listen to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

The residents are!

No they're not, they've returned to the dust as the Scriptures say

 

[th1b.taylor]

There are no residents yet in hell.But there will be after the Great White Throne judgment.

That might be true in the use of the term Hell but they are there awaiting the Judgment. Hell = Sheol = Grave. The Abyss = the Lake of Fire = the final resting place of the damned, a.k.a. the Lost.