12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

[Drew]

So, all of that to claim that there is no eternity for nonbelievers? If that were so, why should or would anyone need to believe in Christ? And what exactly did Christ die on the cross for? Save us from WHAT, exactly?

I would like to think that people come to Christ for positive reasons rather than out of fear of hell. More specifically, I would like to think people come to Jesus to participate in the grand project of healing our world rather than out of personal fear of burning forever in a lake of fire. In this respect, notice how little emphasis Jesus places on "what happens to you after you die" as contrasted with his emphasis on the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God in this present world. Yes, what happens after we die matters, but the gospel is not all about our personal eternal well-being - it is a far grander story of cosmic redemption and healing.

As to what Jesus saves us from, I would think that simple "death as non-existence" is definitely something we would want to be saved from.

 

[Drew]

I want to comment on the famous account in Luke 16. I believe this is a parable, and that, in context, the point Jesus is making has nothing whatsoever to do with the matter of life after death; Jesus uses the parable, I believe, to make an entirely different point. More about this in a later post, hopefully. For those who take it literally, are you not forced into conceding that both Lazarus and the rich man have bodies in the account - there is talk of Lazarus' finger as well as the rich man's eyes and lips.

But how can this be? In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul is quite clear that only one person has been a resurrection body - Jesus.

 

[reba]

Often it is not that such and such is allowed. Moderators just can not be every where ... Clean up is a lot less troublesome if the negative theme does not get carried through...
Engaging in calling the views of other Christian members cults will not stand... Be willing to back your claims your views with scripture .
Members in this site enjoy the freedom to disagree with staff and each other... The disagreements can be done with respect...

ADMIN

2.4:. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Drew]

Often it is not that such and such is allowed. Moderators just can not be every where ... Clean up is a lot less troublesome if the negative theme does not get carried through...
Engaging in calling the views of other Christian members cults will not stand....

Sorry. When I made my post, I certainly did not intend to implicitly criticize the moderators; believe me, I know you have an incredibly difficult job and I admire that you do it, presumably without pay. I certainly apologize for the unintended implication that the moderators are not doing their jobs; again you all deserve medals......

 

[reba]

i know Drew thanks

Pages and pages of this discussion have been posted and my personal conclusion is still not settled 2

 

[Kathi]

So what is annihilation?What does it mean?Does Scripture teach annihilation?Does it pertain to this post?Why?

 

[FreeGrace]

Unfortunately for such an idea, the Bible all too clearly tells us that God never left Jesus... not even for a second.

Unfortunately, Jesus' words clearly refute your claim.

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli , Eli , lama sabachthani ? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matt 27:46

egkataleipō

1) abandon, desert

1a) leave in straits, leave helpless

1b) totally abandoned, utterly forsaken

2) to leave behind among, to leave surviving

 

[FreeGrace]

Where I got the idea that you believe Jesus is in hell is because if that's the price for sin is to burn for eternity, then Jesus must be there yet in order for the price to be paid of all those sins of mankind.

Can you find any verse that backs you up on this? The price for sin was spiritual death, or separation from God. Which happened to Adam the moment he rebelled and ate the forbidden fruit. And all humans are born that way; spiritually dead and separated from God. When the body dies, and the person never received eternal life, the ONLY place in eternity for them is the LoF. That's why they are there.

Anyway, Jesus never burned in hell. And since He paid the full penalty for sin, no one goes to hell for their sin. That would be double jeopardy.

 

[Kathi]

Often it is not that such and such is allowed. Moderators just can not be every where ... Clean up is a lot less troublesome if the negative theme does not get carried through...
Engaging in calling the views of other Christian members cults will not stand... Be willing to back your claims your views with scripture .
Members in this site enjoy the freedom to disagree with staff and each other... The disagreements can be done with respect...

ADMIN

2.4:. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

How would you define a cult?

 

[reba]

noun, often attributive \ˈkəlt\
: a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous

: a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much

: a small group of very devoted supporters or fans


Full Definition of CULT
1
: formal religious veneration : worship
2
: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3
: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4
: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5
a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

b : the object of such devotion

c : a usually small group of people characterized by such

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult

 

[reba]

the topic is
12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

 

[FreeGrace]

my post was about the best logical definition of "destroy" in Matt 10:28. Not so much about my views of the fate of un-believers or my view of the Gospel. My only claim about the un-beleivers' fate is the same as yours, they don't have the gift of Eternal Life but rather their fate is The Second Death. A Second Death that's more (not less) fearful than their 1st death.

If one's soul is annihilated, why would it be more fearful than their 1st death?

To receive Eternal Life, that's why.

Why would someone want or need eternal life if after their physical death, they will cease to exist? You haven't answered that question.

To save us from The Second Death, the LoF, Eternal destruction of the body and soul forever, the punishment for sin. Same answer as you give, right?

If one is annihilated in the LoF, so what? They cease to exist, so what they do on earth becomes irrelevant, don'tcha think?

Doesn't matter to who? It most certainly matters to humans. In fact, it's a life or death matter.

Why would it matter if one simply ceases to exist? There is no suffering when one has ceased to exist.

And it most certainly matters to God, too. It's the whole reason for creation (to glorify His Son through by the saving of those destined for Eternal Life from those destined for The Second Death).

Ooh, sounds rather reformed here.

I don't see how you think I've implied His death doesn't matter. For goodness sake, He died so that we can live eternally with Him. That's a lot of mattering.

You keep missing the point of your annihilation view. Since unbelievers will cease to exist, there will be no suffering for them, regardless of their lifestyle.

I think I see the problem here. In one breath you say that you don't get my view, then in the next say my view is an abuse to the whole Gospel. Which is it? You don't get my view or it's an abuse? It can't be both.

Yes, it's both. by not "getting" it I mean I'm not buying it.

The Second Death, the Lake of Fire, Eternal Destruction of both the body and the soul. That's what we have been saved from, right?

If those going to the LoF will cease to exist, so what? After the so-called annihilation, there will be no suffering.

But regardless all this is off-topic to my question about how your two different posted views of Matt 10:28's "destroy" the body and soul seem to conflict with each other and neither view makes much sense of the text of Matt 10:28. Is it a metaphorical destruction of the body and the soul that Jesus says fear or is it a command to fear something God will never actually (literally) do.

Which is it on your view?

I've been clear. Jesus spoke of the "everlasting fire" in Matt 25:41, so I believe the LoF is eternal. John spoke of a "torment for ever and ever" in Rev 20:10, so I believe the LoF is eternal.

You've shown no verses to support your view.

 

[FreeGrace]

I would like to think that people come to Christ for positive reasons rather than out of fear of hell.

The emphasis in Scripture is that He saves us from the LoF, specifically.

More specifically, I would like to think people come to Jesus to participate in the grand project of healing our world rather than out of personal fear of burning forever in a lake of fire.

You may think what you like. I will stick with what Scripture says.

In this respect, notice how little emphasis Jesus places on "what happens to you after you die" as contrasted with his emphasis on the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God in this present world.

Not to worry. What happens to unbelievers after they die is well covered in Scripture.

As to what Jesus saves us from, I would think that simple "death as non-existence" is definitely something we would want to be saved from.

Why would you or anyone be afraid of 'non-existence'? Is there suffering where there is no existence?? No.

 

[Kathi]

edited back to topic please reba

 

[Drew]

The emphasis in Scripture is that He saves us from the LoF, specifically.

Are you prepared to make the case to support this statement? I would point out that just because there are statements to the effect that Jesus does us save us from something, this does make it the central emphasis. I suggest that I will be able to show that Jesus spoke much more about other things - not least the fact that the Kingdom of God has arrived - than He did about eternal destinies.

While we may very understandably be concerned with eternal destinies, I suggest that both the gospel writers and Paul were not centrally concerned with this issue.

 

[Kathi]

12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

This is the OP.Lets get back to basics.If someone does not believe that hell is not eternal conscious torment what does that mean?What happens to an unbeliever then when they die?

 

[Drew]

You may think what you like. I will stick with what Scripture says.

Ok, what does Romans 6:23 say? Does it not say that the wages of sin is death? On what grounds do you justify taking the concept of death and transforming it into a concept of conscious existence in eternal torment? In what other context do people use the concept of death to denote a state of full conscious (living) existence?

I am all for "sticking with what Scripture says".

 

[tim-from-pa]

Can you find any verse that backs you up on this? The price for sin was spiritual death, or separation from God. Which happened to Adam the moment he rebelled and ate the forbidden fruit. And all humans are born that way; spiritually dead and separated from God. When the body dies, and the person never received eternal life, the ONLY place in eternity for them is the LoF. That's why they are there.

Anyway, Jesus never burned in hell. And since He paid the full penalty for sin, no one goes to hell for their sin. That would be double jeopardy.

My point is that if Jesus paid the price for sin (all the stuff you just said) then he'd have to experience that, including the LoF. Jesus paid the price for sin so that men may have eternal life -- an exchange. You say that men don't go to hell for their sins. Then what are they there for? After all, eternal life is contingent on being forgiven of sin. Or to put it another way, spiritual death, as you say, being separation from God is because of sin. If Christ's death atoned for all sins, then all men are forgiven. Only those who reject life are dead. And why are they dead? Because of sin. Therefore it's superfluous to add another reason to go to the LoF (i.e. "only other place to go") when the sin was the originating culprit.

The issue I see here is your redefining what "death" means to fit a certain theology IMO. I rather go with the direct meanings, and the bible clearly says death, destruction, perishing, even ashes under one's feet, etc all the result of an all-consuming fire. Now, I believe in the resurrection after the millennium, that unlike people who were raised in the Lord, these are resurrected physically, thus are capable of being destroyed, and the bible teaches of a new heavens and earth, and the old being destroyed by fire (a renovation) for the new to come. That's after the GWT at the very end and how people are thrown into this lake of fire. A fire that does not consume and people just scream from pain day in and day out is a pretty ineffectual fire. A fire consumes, and then it goes out. Then the new heavens and earth.

 

[Drew]

12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

This is the OP.Lets get back to basics.If someone does not believe that hell is not eternal conscious torment what does that mean?What happens to an unbeliever then when they die?

While the unbeliever will indeed be judged -as will we all (Romans 2) - they will ultimately be annihilated. Even though I think the Bible indeed teaches this more or less explicitly (e.g. the wages of sin is death, the soul that sins will dies, etc.), I think it is otherwise self-contradictory to affirm belief in a loving merciful God who also sentences people to an eternity of torment.

 

[Kathi]

While the unbeliever will indeed be judged -as will we all (Romans 2) - they will ultimately be annihilated. Even though I think the Bible indeed teaches this more or less explicitly (e.g. the wages of sin is death, the soul that sins will dies, etc.), I think it is otherwise self-contradictory to affirm belief in a loving merciful God who also sentences people to an eternity of torment.

So do you believe in annihilation?