12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

[Drew]

The issue I see here is your redefining what "death" means to fit a certain theology IMO. I rather go with the direct meanings, and the bible clearly says death, destruction, perishing, even ashes under one's feet, etc all the result of an all-consuming fire.

Agree. Why do some of you believe you can take words like "death" (the wages of sin are death) and "die" (the soul that sins shall die) and dramatically redefine these concepts to mean essentially their exact opposite? How can "death" be transformed into "eternal conscious living existence"?

 

[Drew]

So do you believe in annihilation?

Of course I do; I thought I said so very explicitly in my post.

 

[Kathi]

Of course I do; I thought I said so very explicitly in my post.

Can you give me Scripture Drew that supports to belief of annihilation?

 

[Drew]

Let's see what we can conclude about the Scriptural references to eternality and "foreverness" in specific relation to punishment by fire:

Isaiah 34:9-10
Edom's streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

Jude 7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Is smoke rising from Edom today?

Are Sodom and Gomorrah burning today?

So we need to be careful in respect to language about 'eternity'. To be fair, using this line of argument puts me in a seeming contradictory relative to my position on the word "death" - that we should take it at face value. Here I believe I have shown that sometimes that does not work - in the texts above, "eternal" clearly cannot really mean "eternal". Nevertheless, I still maintain that when Paul writes that the wages of sin are death, he really does intend us to think in terms of "death" in the conventional "end of all conscious existence" sense. Much more explanation is, of course, required.

 

[Drew]

Can you give me Scripture Drew that supports to belief of annihilation?

I already have - Romans 6:23. I take "death" to mean death. The very sense this word generally carries is that of "end of existence". It is you, apparently, who think that Paul is essentially reworking the concept "death" here to include eternal conscious existence. Please (I believe I have you to do this several times) explain your justification for such a seemingly radical redefinition of the concept of death.

 

[Kathi]

Drew has given what he thinks is Scripture that confirms annihilation.Can anyone debate what he has said in opposition to annihilation?Can you give Scripture to support that the Bible does not say a person is annihilated when they die?

 

[Willie T]

Drew,
As I'm sure you know, it is one tough row to hoe to get past the ingrained expectation of punishment....... the more horrible and long lasting, the better. We just seem to have this need to somehow get "paybacks", even if it is God doing it for us.

I can hardly believe the almost, "glee" apparent in the church people around me as I was growing up when they would talk about "heaping burning coals upon other's heads" by supposedly praying for them and whishing them well.

 

[Kathi]

So everyone believes in annihilation?

 

[Willie T]

So everyone believes in annihilation?

No, I believe there will be some sort of chastisement, but the fear-driven idea of twenty thousand, billion years of burning torture just never did match up with the God who died for me.

 

[Kathi]

Drew let me put this before you and get your opinion.What do you think of this study of the belief of annihilation.Do you agree with it.What do you not agree with?

Question: "Is annihilationism biblical?"

Answer: Annihilationism is the belief that unbelievers will not experience an eternity of suffering in hell, but will instead be “extinguished” after death. For many, annihilationism is an attractive belief because of the awfulness of the idea of people spending eternity in hell. While there are some passages that seem to argue for annihilationism, a comprehensive look at what the Bible says about the destiny of the wicked reveals the fact that punishment in hell is eternal. A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines: 1) the consequences of sin, 2) the justice of God, 3) the nature of hell.

In relation to the nature of hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he/she would be almost instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire; it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

Eternity is another aspect which annihilationists fail to fully comprehend. Annihilationists are correct that the Greek word aionion, which is usually translated “eternal,” does not by definition mean “eternal.” It specifically refers to an “age” or “eon,” a specific period of time. However, it is clear that in New Testament, aionion is sometimes used to refer to an eternal length of time. Revelation 20:10 speaks of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and being tormented “day and night forever and ever.” It is clear that these three are not “extinguished” by being cast into the lake of fire. Why would the fate of the unsaved be any different (Revelation 20:14-15)? The most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.

Another frequent objection to the eternality of hell by annihilationists is that it would be unjust for God to punish unbelievers in hell for eternity for a finite amount of sin. How could it be fair for God to take a person who lived a sinful, 70-year life, and punish him/her for all of eternity? The answer is that our sin bears an eternal consequence because it is committed against an eternal God. When King David committed the sins of adultery and murder he stated, “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah; how could David claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being. As a result, all sin against Him is worthy of an eternal punishment. It is not a matter of the length of time we sin, but the character of the God against whom we sin.

A more personal aspect of annihilationism is the idea that we could not possibly be happy in heaven if we knew that some of our loved ones were suffering an eternity of torment in hell. However, when we arrive in heaven, we will not have anything to complain about or be saddened by. Revelation 21:4 tells us, “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” If some of our loved ones are not in heaven, we will be in 100 percent complete agreement that they do not belong there and that they are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 3:16; 14:6). It is hard to understand this, but we will not be saddened by the lack of their presence. Our focus should not be on how we can enjoy heaven without all of our loved ones there, but on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ so that they will be there.

Hell is perhaps a primary reason why God sent Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Being “extinguished” after death is no fate to dread, but an eternity in hell most definitely is. Jesus’ death was an infinite death, paying our infinite sin debt so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). When we place our faith in Him, we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. But if we reject God’s gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/annihilationism.html#ixzz3Fn3cX2P1

 

[Drew]

No, I believe there will be some sort of chastisement, but the fear-driven idea of twenty thousand, billion years of burning torture just never did match up with the God who died for me.

Let me qualify my position. I believe its entirely possible that there will be "punishment" of some sort, but I believe the ultimate fate of the lost is annihilation. So it appears that we may share the same general view.

 

[Drew]

In relation to the nature of hell, annihilationists misunderstand the meaning of the lake of fire. Obviously, if a human being were cast into a lake of burning lava, he/she would be almost instantly consumed. However, the lake of fire is both a physical and spiritual realm. It is not simply a human body being cast into the lake of fire; it is a human’s body, soul, and spirit. A spiritual nature cannot be consumed by physical fire. It seems that the unsaved are resurrected with a body prepared for eternity just as the saved are (Revelation 20:13; Acts 24:15). These bodies are prepared for an eternal fate.

I am quite familiar with this particular line of reasoning. The biggest problem is that this argument contains an assumption that needs to be justified - namely that the human person is constituted by a body which houses a "soul" that is the bearer of consciousness. This is, I will argue, not how a Jew (Jews wrote the Bible in its entirety, I believe) of Jesus day and earlier would understand things.

The problem is this: you and I live in the cultural heritage of Greek thinkers like Plato who thought in terms of things like a consciousness-bearing soul. But I assert that scholars will affirm that Jews did not think in terms of a "soul" that could be separated from the body and still retain consciousness. If I am right about this, the argument presented in your post is vulnerable.

Let me illustrate: In Leviticus, the writer asserts "the soul is in the blood". Notice how this closely connects the notion of "soul" to the physical body. Yet the person you are quoting appears to believe that the soul is a non-physical thing that can be separated from the body and still remain the seat of conscious experience.

And that is, I suggest, a Greek concept, not a Hebrew one.

I intend to fill out this argument is future posts.

 

[tim-from-pa]

The most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matthew 25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I was tempted to answer just this one of many points from that site.

That's just one verse of Jesus'. One has to take ALL that Jesus said and other verses to determine his meaning. He did not say eternal punishing. He said eternal punishment. That means their punishment is forever, i.e. being burned up, and there's no coming back to life ever again -- no more resurrection like they already had. The action is forever. This is equivalent to eternal fire. That does not mean the fire burns forever. Rather, it means the action of the fire is forever, in the usage of the Greek. In today's language we'd say "it's burned up forever". I once told people I burned a book I hated in eternal fire. That means that the action was eternal. Most people don't talk that way today, but the fire that burned my book is no longer burning, but what it accomplished was still eternal. As a matter of fact, I don't know of any fire that is not eternal, i.e. in its action that the Greek talks about, not it's duration.

 

[Willie T]

Let me qualify my position. I believe its entirely possible that there will be "punishment" of some sort, but I believe the ultimate fate of the lost is annihilation. So it appears that we may share the same general view.

Maybe "generally", but not exactly. I see no point for punishment if people are going to be annihilated anyway. To me, "punishment" is to learn from. What is the point of learning anything at all, if, ultimately, you are not going to exist, and you will never have a chance to use what you learned?

Yes, if after some "attitude adjustment" from God, PRIDE still rules you, and you keep denying Him, then I can see just being erased.

One thing I cannot escape looking at is the fact that Jesus went and preached to formerly unreceptive people who were long dead. He led, at least some of them, out of there........ to (I assume) the kingdom.

 

[tim-from-pa]

NOW FOR A THOUGHT:

If we consider a fire, what does a fire need to burn? Oxygen, fuel and a source of heat (ignition).

OK, the unsaved can be the fuel. In this physical universe, I noticed everything mimics the spiritual. When we fast, as I did this past Day of Atonement, we hold off on food and water. But Oxygen is a nutrient of sorts. Are we commanded to stop breathing for a day? Of course not! Air is symbolic of the Spirit of God. We are to feed (live) off His Word. So the physical counterpart is breathing. Now, spiritually speaking, what does the oxygen (and for all practical purposes call that air) represent? I just mentioned it, the Spirit of God.

This is why John the Baptist said Christ would either baptize a person with the Holy Spirit or with FIRE. That brings to mind that God is an all consuming fire and for the wicked one will be destroyed with the brightness of His Coming. So the Spirit to those that believe is Life, but to the wicked it is their source of death. He don't torment people for all eternity with his Spirit. They are destroyed because no (wicked) man can look at God and live.

 

[Drew]

. Being “extinguished” after death is no fate to dread,...

Millions of people the world over both fear death and yet believe they will simply cease to exist. In other words, we have a powerful, pervasive fear of ceasing to exist. True, people would be more frightened of eternal torment, but they are certainly frightened enough of death as conceived of as non-existence.

 

[jeff77]

While the unbeliever will indeed be judged -as will we all (Romans 2) - they will ultimately be annihilated. Even though I think the Bible indeed teaches this more or less explicitly (e.g. the wages of sin is death, the soul that sins will dies, etc.), I think it is otherwise self-contradictory to affirm belief in a loving merciful God who also sentences people to an eternity of torment.

I have often heard "why would a loving merciful God sentence people to an eternity of torment". I usually ask why would a loving God annihilate so many of his creation? I can see the difference if we are assuming a burning alive type of torment, but just because people decide to not be with Jesus using the free will that He gave them doesn't mean that He wants to wipe them out of existence. Just my thoughts anyway.

 

[Drew]

I have often heard "why would a loving merciful God sentence people to an eternity of torment". I usually ask why would a loving God annihilate so many of his creation? I can see the difference if we are assuming a burning alive type of torment, but just because people decide to not be with Jesus using the free will that He gave them doesn't mean that He wants to wipe them out of existence. Just my thoughts anyway.

I have a lot of sympathy with this position, but I cannot square it with the Biblical texts. As you are no doubt aware, many will claim that the "annihilation" position is itself overly "soft" given the Biblical texts.

 

[Drew]

To return to this matter of the "soul" vs the "body". I won't be surprised if some readers believe in the idea that the "saved" spent eternity in a disembodied "spiritual" state. With all respect, such an idea is patently unBiblical - it is clear, not least from 1 Corinthians 15, that we are promised resurrection bodies just like the one Jesus was given. And yes, these are "real" bodies - arms, legs, heads, eyes, ears, noses, the whole shebang. Millions of people in churches will recite the "I believe in the resurrection of the body" part of the Apostle's creed and yet, curiously, not believe it; they believe instead that they will exist forever in a disembodied state.

Imagine that, as some seem to believe, our "soul" goes to heaven and enjoys full conscious awareness. What point, then, is there in being given a resurrection body as promised in 1 Corinthians 15? After all, won't being given a body seem like a "downgrade" from this ethereal, disembodied state where we can presumably enjoy the full flower of conscious existence without the encumberance of a body? And remember, God created this world as a physical thing and declared it to be very good. Will He not redeem its physicality?

The point is this: this notion of a consciousness-bearing soul is decidedly problematic when viewed in the entire Biblical context. So it is therefore at least suspicious when people read "the wages of sin is death" and then choose to restrict application of that statement to what, on the view of some here, is the mere "flesh suit" that houses a real "us" - the soul - which is not subject to the death described in Romans 6:23. That hardly counts as "death" - it simply means that your "flesh suit" dies and the real you remains, for all practical purposes, very much alive.

Do you see the problem with this?

 

[chessman]

I...
by not "getting" it I mean I'm not buying it.

i wouldn't expect you to buy my view. Especially if you don't get my view.

I would expect you, however, to answer my question to you about your post. Did Jesus command us to fear a metaphorical eternal misery of the soul or did He make an idle threat of destroying the soul or did He command fear of an idle threat of metaphorical eternal misery of the soul? I need to know.

You've shown no verses to support your view.

Matthew 10:28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ​

Ooh, sounds rather reformed here.

if you will not answer the above question then how about this one: Once a person is given Eternal Life, can that person lose their Eternal Life?