12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

[Classic Rider]

To Love through Dove... I am wondering if you read my 12 reasons hell is not eternal conscious torment at the first because I have already dealt with your question about the rich man and Lazarus. In that parable it is said that the rich man went to Hades (that is the Greek word) not Gehenna. The english word doesn't matter because the bible was written in Greek. Hades is the Old Testament place of the dead and it is temporary. Gehenna (Hell ) is eternal. So yes the rich man was tormented but Jesus never says in that passage that it was eternal. There is no time frame given. In Matthew where Jesus talks about eternal punishment that is about Hell Gehenna and that is indeed eternal. However Hell is an eternal punishment because the soul is punished and then destroyed and when our soul is destroyed we experience death (the second death) and that is an eternal punishment since we are never resurrected.

 

[LovethroughDove]

When Jesus says eternal punishment, I am pretty sure he means eternal. Not "in the eternal" and then destroyed, cause that is not eternal.

 

[Kathi]

When Jesus says eternal punishment, I am pretty sure he means eternal. Not "in the eternal" and then destroyed, cause that is not eternal.

You are right.Eternal is forever and ever and never ending.

 

[Kathi]

I am sure that people will be judged on what they did with Scripture when they were on this earth.Did they lead people astray?That is not good.

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh dear. I hope the discussion is not going to adopt this tenor - you are implying that I am under Satan's sway as if that were somehow an argument for your position. Let's both agree to not impute motive, and discuss the matter based on what the Scriptures actually say, ok?

I would like to know this, please: In Romans 6, Paul states that the wages sin are death. On what grounds do you take the concept "death" and make it mean "life in torment". It appears that you need to do this to support your view. For myself, I assume - and I stand to be corrected on this - that to a first century Palestinian like Paul, the concept "death" means what it means in our 21st century society - the cessation of all life functions. Perhaps I am wrong; even so, I think there are plenty of arguments against the eternal torment position.

If there are plenty of arguments against eternal torment, why are there no verses that teach such a view? Further, what do you do with Rev 20:10?

Second, the idea of death really has nothing to do with "function". It has everything to do with position. For example, the definition of death is found in James 2:26. The body without the spirit. Dead is when the soul leaves the body. Function has nothing to do with it. If your definition were correct, there would be a lot of people currently in nursing homes that are dead.

So, just as physical death is separation of soul from body, so also spiritual death is separation from God. Which is what happened to Adam when he rebelled. He lost all relationship and fellowship with God. It was God who pursued Adam, and gave him the solution to his problem.

 

[reba]

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

These are 2 of the reasons i do not take a side on this issue...

 

[FreeGrace]

to answer your question.... I believe when a person dies if they are an unbeliever they will be judged and will go to hell. There they will be "beaten with many stripes" or with "few" depending on their sins. Then God will "destroy both body and soul in hell" Matthew 10:28

Here is the verse: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

the verse does NOT say that God will or does destroy the soul.

Second, consider the Greek word for "destroy"
apollumi

1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell ****************
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose

How would one demonstrate that "1e" isn't what Matt meant?

 

[FreeGrace]

I have always believed that there are levels of punishment in hell.Just as there is levels of rewards in heaven.With God's mercy and compassion I don't think the sweet little grandma who is not a believer but has done alot of good for others is going to get the same punishment as Hitler.When a person has broken the law and goes to court before a Judge not everyone gets the same sentence.Now.....that is just speculation on my part.There is no Scripture to support this.

This is true. Jesus said that it will be "more tolerable" for some than for others at the judgment. Clearly Hitler will be deeper in the LoF than that sweet little grandma who never believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

These are 2 of the reasons i do not take a side on this issue...

When one realizes that "death" in Rom 6:23 refers to spiritual death, or separation from God. And that will be eternal. It is clear from Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10 that the LoF will be eternal. No end.

 

[Just a servant]

What is eternal?

Have you ever been in a position where you were experiencing great pain and it FELT like it would never end?

Is there even TIME in Hell?

These are valid questions. I do not think God is limited in the slightest in the judgments he can impose upon death, (Edited, ToS 2.2, Discussion of Catholic doctrine is limited and will only be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature. Obadiah.)

Here is an example of a passage that says forever, but "forever" seems to be allegorical depending on how it is read. I do not know the proper way to interpret it.

Some believe this event already occurred.

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/34-10.htm

It is good to keep in mind that it is possible that eternal torment can literally be...eternal conscious torment that never ends.

Or maybe not.

What I think we should focus on is the idea of not getting to be with God and never being able to see what He has planned for the Saints. Whatever "Hell" is, Heaven is surely at least 7 times greater than Hell is bad. What scares you more? God's judgment or not receiving His rewards? His rewards are something no eye has seen. He is keeping this a secret for a reason. It's an infinite stream of secret gifts that no one has ever seen. This God I am talking about is the same God that made this:

WITHOUT EVEN TRYING!

No punishment could be greater than not getting to rise in Christ. Well, except the punishment that comes from the God that made that without trying (I made a funny)

 

[Kathi]

This is true. Jesus said that it will be "more tolerable" for some than for others at the judgment. Clearly Hitler will be deeper in the LoF than that sweet little grandma who never believed.

Do you have Scripture for that?I would like to see it.There are to Judgments were these words of Jesus meant for the Bema Seat believers judgment or the Great White Throne non believers Judgment?

 

[jeff77]

Luke 12:47 …46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Notice there is a limited number of lashes.... few or many but not infinite.

So are you saying that there are 2 different types of punishment in hell, the first being few or many lashes followed by annihilation?

 

[Just a servant]

Each person will be re-payed according to their deeds. There are different punishments and different rewards. The sins of the righteous will be forgotten, and they will only be rewarded for their good deeds. The good deeds of the wicked will be forgotten and they will be punished according to their sins. This is clear in Scripture.

Being beheaded for the Gospel is the best thing that can happen to a person, we just have a hard time understanding why from this perspective.

 

[Kathi]

Each person will be re-payed according to their deeds. There are different punishments and different rewards. The sins of the righteous will be forgotten, and they will only be rewarded for their good deeds. The good deeds of the wicked will be forgotten and they will be punished according to their sins. This is clear in Scripture.

Being beheaded for the Gospel is the best thing that can happen to a person, we just have a hard time understanding why from this perspective.

That is going to be the risk that a person who has come to Christ after the rapture will have to take if they do not take the Mark of the Beast in the tribulation

 

[Just a servant]

That is going to be the risk that a person who has come to Christ after the rapture will have to take if they do not take the Mark of the Beast in the tribulation

Risk? What risk? Being beheaded for the Gospel is not a risk, it is a good deed God prepares for a person ahead of time. It secures the best spot in Heaven a person can get. If not for God, no one would be emboldened not to take the Mark. All people are bad. All credit is God's. He chooses us.

 

[jeff77]

Each person will be re-payed according to their deeds. There are different punishments and different rewards. The sins of the righteous will be forgotten, and they will only be rewarded for their good deeds. The good deeds of the wicked will be forgotten and they will be punished according to their sins. This is clear in Scripture.

Being beheaded for the Gospel is the best thing that can happen to a person, we just have a hard time understanding why from this perspective.

So the lost will be able to pay for their sins in hell by being punished a certain amount? In John 3:16 it says "for the wages of sin is death". That verse does not seem to say that one can pay for their sins by a certain amount of punishment followed by annihilation.

 

[Kathi]

Risk? What risk? Being beheaded for the Gospel is not a risk, it is a good deed God prepares for a person ahead of time. It secures the best spot in Heaven a person can get. If not for God, no one would be emboldened not to take the Mark. All people are bad. All credit is God's. He chooses us.

I am lost in what you are saying.If a person comes to Christ before the rapture they will go to heaven and not have to go through the tribulation.

 

[Just a servant]

So the lost will be able to pay for their sins in hell by being punished a certain amount? In John 3:16 it says "for the wages of sin is death". That verse does not seem to say that one can pay for their sins by a certain amount of punishment followed by annihilation.

I don't know. Much of the Word is hyperbole and allegory, and I posted a Scripture where the word "forever" seems to be hyperbole/allegory. It could be literally forever. Either way, not every person gets the same punishment. Not every person gets the same rewards.

 

[Just a servant]

I just realized I said "same God that made this." Insert "who" for "that." In my every day life, I often say "the same person that did this is the same one that did this." I am not calling God an impersonal force. I just used bad grammar.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This is all most interesting.
I have a question.
Matthew 26:24;
"But woe to the man that betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born".

What is the difference between never being born than dying and being totally separated from God for all eternity?