12 reasons why hell is not eternal couscious torment - Part One

[Classic Rider]

To Free Grace... I just looked up Matt 10 28 in every single English translation there is.... on the bible gateway.com and every version translated the Greek word apollumi (the word for destroy) as destroy. Not a single translation chose to translate Apollumi in the way you suggested it could be translated. (You said it could mean to suffer misery in hell) Not a single team of scholars chose to translate apollumi in Matt 10:28 as you suggest. So it obviously doesn't mean anything other than it's obvious meaning. Destroy just means destroy.

 

[FreeGrace]

As a reminder, eternal conscious torment is contingent on an immortal soul doctrine. But those of us who do not believe in eternal conscious torment do not believe that the soul is inherently immortal, either. Rather, eternal life is granted upon having faith. Otherwise, the soul that sins shall die. Conscious eternal torment, the idea of going to heaven after death, and an immortal soul, and other such beliefs are basically based in pagan ideas. The Bible teaches that a person is asleep until the resurrection at the second coming of Christ and heaven ie the kingdom of God is basically coming to Earth. In the end a new heaven and new earth is created which we will inhabit. The moral of the story is that this whole thread is more than just about eternal conscious torment, but a lot of other doctrines that are assumed for that to be true.

When Jesus and Paul made mention of "sleeping", they were referring to physical death. Not soul death. There is no teaching in Scripture for soul death.

Paul wrote "absent from the body, face to face with the Lord". And he didn't mention any nap in between.

If you are aware of any verse that does speak of the soul sleeping, please share.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes you are correct. I tried to say that in point 5 5. Hell is not eternal conscious torment because only believers in Jesus are given immortality.

Incorrect. Jesus gives the life of God, which is called "eternal life", NOT, as you claim, "immortality". edited snark

If you aren’t a Christian your soul is mortal and, thus, when you are cast into hell your soul will die.

While you don't believe it, death is a separation. Physical death is separation of soul and body, as James noted in 2:26. Spiritual death is separation from God.

There are no verses that teach that the soul will be annihilated.

I bet you have been taught that the soul is immortal and, therefore, must live forever either in heaven or hell.

I bet you never read Jesus' words.

Matt 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Keep in mind that "everlasting fire" is the LoF. It is everlasting.

 

[FreeGrace]

To Free Grace... I just looked up Matt 10 28 in every single English translation there is.... on the bible gateway.com and every version translated the Greek word apollumi (the word for destroy) as destroy. Not a single translation chose to translate Apollumi in the way you suggested it could be translated.

So what?

(You said it could mean to suffer misery in hell)

Correction. A Greek lexicon SAYS it does mean to suffer misery in hell, as one of its various meanings.

Not a single team of scholars chose to translate apollumi in Matt 10:28 as you suggest. So it obviously doesn't mean anything other than it's obvious meaning. Destroy just means destroy.

Ignoring the lexicons just to suit your own view is fine with me.

So, if God does annihilate souls, why are there NO verses that say so? Where's your "obvious" teaching?

 

[tim-from-pa]

......
So, if God does annihilate souls, why are there NO verses that say so? Where's your "obvious" teaching?

There are. Start with John 3:16. Jesus said perish. What is that but destruction of the person, as that is the intrinsic definition of perish?

Paul, as does the Old Testament, says that the penalty of sin is death. Again, that's the intrinsic definition of death ie to no longer be.

How will that come about? The Bible answers that in the book of Revelation. It is brought by the second death, destruction by fire. Destruction by fire and perishing and annihilate are synonymous. They all mean the same thing. But if you don't like the word annihilate, then let's just call it the second death.

 

[chessman]

Second, consider the Greek word for "destroy"
apollumi
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell ****************
How would one demonstrate that "1e" isn't what Matt meant?

Good question:
What happens when you "scour" the Bible for Thayer's definition 1e examples? Two occurrences, supposedly! Where?

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

… be afraid of the one who is able to ______???_______ both soul and body in hell. ???
… be afraid of the one who is able to (Thayer’s 1e) = metaphorically devote or give over to eternal misery in hell both soul and body in hell. [Who’s afraid of a metaphorical Hell?]


As for Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, his 1e has only two references to this meaning that he’s come up with and one of them is, you guessed it, Matt 10:28. Which on its face seems a little circular if you ask me. But looking at the other, what do we find:

James 4:12 (LEB) There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? ​

Another Good question. Who are you to judge...? You can only kill the body, not the soul and the body. Nor can you save or destroy souls. You are a smoky vapor that appears for a short time then disappears. Man can only kill the body (not the soul). That doesn't even remotely sound metaphorical to me.

So how does Thayer’s definition fit?:

There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to ________ (save and to metaphorically give over to eternal misery in Hell). Hmmm? Where did that come from? Hell's not even mentioned in James 4:12. 1e is a misfit already.

So God is only able to metaphorically give one over to eternal misery? Sounds weak to me.

Or worse, is it also true that God is merely metaphorically able to save us, since Thayer thinks metaphorical language is in use here?

God’s not literally able to destroy both the body and the soul (merely metaphorically able to do that)??? I smell a problem with Thayer’s definition here. Smells like Play Doh (I mean Plato) to me.

God’s perfectly able to destroy a soul and a body, if He so desirers to in Hell or any other place He so desires. And James' further point:

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will travel to such and such a city and spend a year there, and carry on business and make a profit,” 14 you who do not know what will happen tomorrow, what your life will be like. For you are a smoky vapor that appears for a short time and then disappears. 15 Instead you should say, “If the Lord wills (who knows what your life will be like and knows what death will be like in Hell too) , we will live and do this or that.”...​

As for how in the world a metaphorical meaning (1 e) comes into play here then for Matt 10:28 or James 4:12, without any other occurrences of this definition???? Matt 10:28's destroy being metaphorical seems as equally unclear given the context of the message to His disciples there as well:

15 Truly I say to you, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!​

[On the day of judgment when God merely metaphorically gives them over to eternal misery, versus actually destroying their body and soul in Hell. Like He metaphorically did to Sodom and Gomorrah the 1st time. Yea, right!]

 

[JLB]

Which point? The point that Adam died that day? Yes, that's simple. God said it was so, so I believe Him and that's what I agreed to.

But the point you were trying to show (that he died 'spiritually' and thusly is an example of 'spiritual death') is actually, not so simple. At least it's not to me. And it's a point of reasoning that I disagree with. I'd asked you the following questions that you never answered from the other related thread.




That's a little hard to believe because I responded with another request for you to answer this question but you never did.


Here's why 'spiritual death' as you call it, is not as simple as you make it out to be:

1. God didn't say; Adam, in the day you eat of the fruit you will 'spiritually die'. That was my first clue that 'spiritual death' is NOT what God meant. I think He meant physical death. In fact, I know that's what He meant.
2. God didn't say; Adam, within 24 hours you will die, either. He said in that 'yom' ... you will surely day. Which in Hebrew (and English for that matter) doesn't necessarily mean 24 hours. In fact, God specifically says His days are NOT the same duration as our days are.
3. I noticed Adam died physically at age 970 man-years (just thirty man-years shy of 1,000 man-years or 1 day as unto the Lord). Which is why I agree Adam died that "day" not because you've made any sort of case for 'spiritual death' via Genesis or that's been made via Romans.
4. (and most importantly to evaluate and negate your point of 'spiritual death' being what occurred to Adam = The Second Death), I noticed Adam walked and talked with God while still in the Garden and was even covered by God's clothing AFTER Adam sinned (according to you 'spiritually died') and was blessed by God outside the Garden with children some man-years later and replacement children and called upon the name of the Lord, well after he'd sinned. Thusly, in no way shape or form do I see a picture of Adam's life after his sin being a picture of 'spiritual death' or certainly not The Second Death.

Adam physically died that YOM, yes. But he didn't 'spiritually die' that 24 hours nor does his life outside the Garden during that day represent Hell or The Second Death. Least you think God's walking, talking and go around blessing people in The Second Death. It's ridiculous if you actually think it through.

No. Not then or now.

But Adam certainly died that day.

Does the Bible say Adam 'spiritually died'? No.
Does the Bible say Adam was "separated from God" that day? No! He talked with Him afterwards and was even blessed by God afterwards.

What's simple is Jesus' point:

Matthew 10:28 (LEB)
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
​

kill the body but are not able to kill the soul (1st death, IMO)
destroy both soul and body in hell. (2nd death, IMO)

What's also simple is Jesus' point about the LoF and The Second Death:

Rev 2:11 and Rev 21:8 (LEB) The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will never be harmed by the second death.’ ... But as for the cowards and unbelievers and detestable persons and murderers and sexually immoral people and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their share is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death. (I.e. the destruction of the BOTH the wicked's soul and body in Hell)​

There is no mention of the second death in my post.

The Point: Adam died that DAY, and did not cease to exist.


The point is simple.

God said to Adam in the day you eat of it you shall surely die.

You agreed!

I thought you could see the point.

The Point: Adam died that DAY!

Did Adam cease to exist?


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Are you saying that beings who were with God face to face and saw Him in all His glory and then rejected Him should get the same punishment as men who were born sinners because Adam sinned in their place in the Garden? Did Jesus die for the angels? Did God ever tell the Angels that for them the wages of sin is death or that they would perish if they didn't believe in Him or that he is able to destroy their bodies and souls in hell? No. Angels and men are different. I don't know what all will happen to the Angels in the everlasting fire ... all I have to work on is scripture and not much is said about angels in that regard except in the symbolic book of Revelation. That really doesn't matter to us people anyway. What matters is what scripture says about us. If we are not saved we will be cast into the everlasting fire and will suffer and be destroyed and perish... and it will be an eternal punishment because we will never be resurrected. Obviously I am human and can be wrong but so can others. The important thing is to trust in Christ for salvation so that we won't have to face either one of these possibilities because both are terrible.

i didn't say it Classic Rider Jesus did..

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

tob

 

[Classic Rider]

Quote from Free Grace "Incorrect. Jesus gives the life of God, which is called "eternal life", NOT, as you claim, "immortality". Let's stay with what Scripture says and the words that Scripture uses."

That is exactly what I am doing...
2nd Timothy 1:10 KJV
"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

life and immortality are the words scripture uses. The gospel brings to light the fact that Christ has abolished death and obtained life and immortality for us. Without Christ and His gospel we have death and we don't have life and immortality. We are mortal.

Anyway I am pretty sure you aren't really open to this idea at this present time... but I see that some of the others on this board are...have a good evening...

 

[turnorburn]

Tim and Classic Rider a question what was in that cup Jesus spoke of in the garden that day and why did he drink it?

Thanks..

tob

*edit: didn't see you there onelove maybe you'd like to answer that question as well?

 

[n2thelight]

The gift of life is given to all whom believes on Christ,if one were to suffer in hell forever,is this not also life?

No crime whatsoever justifies eternal torture!!!!

 

[n2thelight]

When Jesus and Paul made mention of "sleeping", they were referring to physical death. Not soul death. There is no teaching in Scripture for soul death.

Paul wrote "absent from the body, face to face with the Lord". And he didn't mention any nap in between.

If you are aware of any verse that does speak of the soul sleeping, please share.

Yes soul sleep is false as for the scripture for the death of the soul

Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul the sinneth, it shall die. the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

 

[n2thelight]

Tim and Classic Rider a question what was in that cup Jesus spoke of in the garden that day and why did he drink it?

Thanks..

tob

*edit: didn't see you there onelove maybe you'd like to answer that question as well?

Can I have the verse?

 

[turnorburn]

Its from Luke

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

In that cup was something that caused Jesus to sweat as it were "great drops of blood"

tob

 

[n2thelight]

Its from Luke

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

In that cup was something that caused Jesus to sweat as it were "great drops of blood"

tob

Thought that was the one,wanted to be sure...

The cup is the cup of wrath that will be poured out at His 2nd coming....

Isaiah 51:22 "Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:"

Isaiah 51:23 "But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over."

 

[FreeGrace]

There are. Start with John 3:16. Jesus said perish. What is that but destruction of the person, as that is the intrinsic definition of perish?

I recommend that you find a Greek lexicon, to understand the range of meanings for that word. These meanings were discovered by scholars who understand the Greek language.

Further, if Jesus meant annihilation of the soul, then He was directly contradicted by John, the beloved disciple, in Rev 20:10 who notes that satan, the antichrist and the false prophet will be "tormented forever and ever". In the same chapter, John then describes the GWT judgment, in which all who do not possess eternal life will be cast into that same LoF.

Your narrow view of "apollumi" creates a direct conflict between Jesus and John.

Paul, as does the Old Testament, says that the penalty of sin is death. Again, that's the intrinsic definition of death ie to no longer be.

Another example of a narrow view of a word. James defined physical death as separation of soul from body in James 2:26. So it is easy to understand that spiritual death is separation from God. In fact, Paul spoke of this in Eph 2:1, when he told the Ephesian believers that they WERE "dead in sins". Were they physically dead? Of course not. They were spiritually dead, separated from God. He makes that very clear in 2:12 (you were separate from Christ). That's spiritual death. And through faith in Christ, the believer is regenerated, born again, given eternal life, and is no longer spiritually dead.

How will that come about? The Bible answers that in the book of Revelation. It is brought by the second death, destruction by fire. Destruction by fire and perishing and annihilate are synonymous. They all mean the same thing. But if you don't like the word annihilate, then let's just call it the second death.

Apparently you keep skipping over Rev 20:10.

 

[FreeGrace]

Good question:
What happens when you "scour" the Bible for Thayer's definition 1e examples? Two occurrences, supposedly! Where?

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

… be afraid of the one who is able to ______???_______ both soul and body in hell. ???
… be afraid of the one who is able to (Thayer’s 1e) = metaphorically devote or give over to eternal misery in hell both soul and body in hell. [Who’s afraid of a metaphorical Hell?]


As for Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, his 1e has only two references to this meaning that he’s come up with and one of them is, you guessed it, Matt 10:28. Which on its face seems a little circular if you ask me. But looking at the other, what do we find:

James 4:12 (LEB) There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor? ​

Another Good question. Who are you to judge...? You can only kill the body, not the soul and the body. Nor can you save or destroy souls. You are a smoky vapor that appears for a short time then disappears. Man can only kill the body (not the soul). That doesn't even remotely sound metaphorical to me.

So how does Thayer’s definition fit?:

There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to ________ (save and to metaphorically give over to eternal misery in Hell). Hmmm? Where did that come from? Hell's not even mentioned in James 4:12. 1e is a misfit already.

So God is only able to metaphorically give one over to eternal misery? Sounds weak to me.

Or worse, is it also true that God is merely metaphorically able to save us, since Thayer thinks metaphorical language is in use here?

God’s not literally able to destroy both the body and the soul (merely metaphorically able to do that)??? I smell a problem with Thayer’s definition here. Smells like Play Doh (I mean Plato) to me.

God’s perfectly able to destroy a soul and a body, if He so desirers to in Hell or any other place He so desires. And James' further point:

13 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will travel to such and such a city and spend a year there, and carry on business and make a profit,” 14 you who do not know what will happen tomorrow, what your life will be like. For you are a smoky vapor that appears for a short time and then disappears. 15 Instead you should say, “If the Lord wills (who knows what your life will be like and knows what death will be like in Hell too) , we will live and do this or that.”...​

As for how in the world a metaphorical meaning (1 e) comes into play here then for Matt 10:28 or James 4:12, without any other occurrences of this definition???? Matt 10:28's destroy being metaphorical seems as equally unclear given the context of the message to His disciples there as well:

15 Truly I say to you, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!​

[On the day of judgment when God merely metaphorically gives them over to eternal misery, versus actually destroying their body and soul in Hell. Like He metaphorically did to Sodom and Gomorrah the 1st time. Yea, right!]

Nice try. But I'm not going to argue with the Greek scholars who actually do understand the Greek language and how Greek words were used during the time the NT was written.

Your argument is with them, not me. They didn't just make up the range of semantic meanings. They studied the language and THEN wrote the lexicon.

 

[FreeGrace]

Quote from Free Grace "Incorrect. Jesus gives the life of God, which is called "eternal life", NOT, as you claim, "immortality". Let's stay with what Scripture says and the words that Scripture uses."

That is exactly what I am doing...
2nd Timothy 1:10 KJV
"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

life and immortality are the words scripture uses. The gospel brings to light the fact that Christ has abolished death and obtained life and immortality for us. Without Christ and His gospel we have death and we don't have life and immortality. We are mortal.

Anyway I am pretty sure you aren't really open to this idea at this present time... but I see that some of the others on this board are...have a good evening...

I'm open to what Scripture SAYS. What is "mortal" is our physical bodies. Not our souls. And you have no Scripture that teaches otherwise. When Paul wrote that Christ "has brought life and immortality", He was referring to eternal life, which is God's life, and is a gift given to those who believe in Him. Those who don't have God's life are not qualified (Col 1:12) to live with God eternally, and they will experience the second death, which is separation from God in the LoF, which Jesus described as an "everlasting fire" in Matt 25:41 and John described as "torment for ever and ever" in Rev 20:10.

Scripture is not on your side in this debate.

satan would love for people to think that they will simply not exist after death. That removes all worry of any real or lasting consequences of their actions. But we know that before Christ's resurrection, all souls went to Hades, believers to "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" (Lazarus) and unbelievers to 'torments' (the rich man). When Jesus resurrected, He went to Hades and preached victory to the spirits. And took all believers to heaven. Alluded to in Eph 4:8-10.

 

[FreeGrace]

The gift of life is given to all whom believes on Christ,if one were to suffer in hell forever,is this not also life?

No, it's eternal death. Eternal spiritual death. Eternal separation from God.

No crime whatsoever justifies eternal torture!!!!

Says who? Besides you. btw, no one will be cast into the LoF for their crimes, sins, etc. So why will they be there? Their names were not written in the book of life. iow, they didn't receive eternal life. They aren't qualified to live with God because they do not have His life. Col 1:12 speaks of being qualified.

 

[Classic Rider]

First I wanted to answer the issue about when Jesus said to fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell ...... some people said that Jesus only said He is able to destroy body and soul, not that He will...He just wanted people to fear and respect God. So imagine this... Let's say there was a King who constantly arrested people and threw them into a dungeon and tortured them for the rest of their lives. However, there is one thing that he never did. He never fined anyone any amount of money. Now let's say that the King has a son and the son wanted people to fear his dad. So the son calls together a crowd and tells them this...."You people need to fear my dad the king because He is able to fine you 1000 dollars." Then the people say..."are you saying that your dad is actually going to start fining people?" and the son says "No, of course not, I just said he is able to." The people responded, "That is silly, if you really wanted to scare us, why didn't you just say fear the King because he actually does throw people into dungeons and torture them for the rest of their lives..... why threaten us with a lesser punishment that the King will never do when you could have threatened us with a far greater punishment that the King actually does?" And the son said " I don't know, I am new at this threatening gig...perhaps with a little more practice..."

The point of the story is obvious How does it make sense, if Jesus wants us to fear God, to threaten people with a lesser punishment that God supposedly never does when He could have just threatened them with a greater punishment which He supposedly does all the time?