1689 London Confession

[atpollard]

"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;"

• Isaiah 46:10 [ESV] declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
• Ephesians 1:11 [ESV] In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
• Hebrews 6:17 [ESV] So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
• Romans 9:15,18 [ESV] 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

... OK, that sounds pretty "in control of all things" to me?

 

[atpollard]

"yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;"

• James 1:13 [ESV] Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
• 1 John 1:5 [ESV] This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

First point, the Bible verses do appear to say what the 1689 Confession claims they say about God (both the part in Post # 21 and the part in this post).

Second point, critics of Reformed Theology have accused our Confessions of teaching a contradiction in this. So is this a contradiction (God is in control of everything, but not the "author of sin")? Is this contradiction only within the Confession or is it a contradiction within the Scriptures the Confession presents as its proof?

Any thoughts? Discussion?

 

[Fastfredy0]

So is this a contradiction (God is in control of everything, but not the "author of sin")? Is this contradiction only within the Confession or is it a contradiction within the Scriptures the Confession presents as its proof?

Any thoughts? Discussion?

Theodocies ... the question deep thinking Christians have possibly struggled with more than any other
....here too, like the Free WIllies, all (that I know of) Reform guys who propose that God is not the Author of Sin go to the "it's a mystery" answer... in other words they don't have an answer. (aside: of course a definition of "Author of Sin" is needed for clarity.

Premise 1: God knows all things (the Open Theists disagree, but I'll ignore them
Premise 2: From nothing nothing comes (ex nihilo nihil fit)
Premise 3: God is not the author of sin (God does not determine what evil things people will do)
Premise 4: God created ALL things
Conclusion: in eternity past there is no source of future knowledge save God Himself as God was alone. He did not determine what His creation would do so they must have done it of via power unknown (dualism) which contradicts that God created all things. Syllogism is either a contradiction or a "mystery"

_________________________

“If it were not a good that evil should exist, its existence would not be permitted by the omnipotent God, who without doubt can as easily refuse to permit what He does not wish, as bring about what He does wish. And if we do not believe this, the very first sentence of our creed is endangered, wherein we profess to believe in God the Father Almighty.” Augustine

1. Genesis 20:6 Then in the dream God replied to him [Abimelech concerning Abraham’s wife], “Yes, I know that you have done this with a clear conscience. That is why I have kept you from sinning against me and why I did not allow you to touch her
2. Exodus 4:11 The Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute or the deaf, or the seeing or the blind? Is it not I, the Lord? If man causes someone to be deaf or blind it is sin; if God does causes deafness or blindness, it is not sin.
3. Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses. The Canaanites were destroyed by Joshua
4. Joshua 23:15 But just as all the good things that the Lord your God promised concerning you have been fulfilled for you, so the Lord will bring upon you all the evil things, until he has destroyed you from off this good land that the Lord your God has given you, ESV instead of ‘evil’ other versions you ‘every judgement’ (NET), ‘evil’ (NIV, KJV), ‘bad thing’ (AMP)
5. Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem, [which aided him in the killing of his brethren ]
6. Judges 14:4 …it was from the LORD; for he was seeking an occasion against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. Samson’s demand to marry an unbelieving Philistine woman
7. 1 Samuel 2:25 The sons of Eli, when rebuked for their evil deeds, “But they would not listen to their father, for it was the Lord’s will to put them to death”.
8. 1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented and troubled him.
9. 1 Samuel 18:10 Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came forcefully on Saul, and he raved [madly] inside his house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and there was a spear in Saul’s hand. 11 Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, “I will pin David to the wall.” But David evaded him twice.
10. 1 Samuel 19:9 Then an evil spirit from the Lord came on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.
11. 2 Samuel 12:11 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will stir up evil against you from your own household; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and [in broad daylight.]’” When David sinned, the LORD said to him through Nathan the prophet, [Fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21, 22.]
12. 2 Samuel 16:11 Let him alone and let him curse, for [it could be that] the Lord has told him [to do it]. When Shimei cursed David and threw stones at him and his servants (2 Samuel 15:5-8), David refused to take vengeance on Shimei but said to his soldiers, “the Lord has told him [to do it]”.
13. 2 Samuel 17:14 And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite is better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.
14. 2 Samuel 21:1-14
15. 2 Samuel 24:1 The Lord “incited” David to take a census of the people, but afterward David recognized this as sin, saying, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done” (2 Samuel 24:10), and God sent punishment on the land because of this sin (2 Samuel 24:12-17). However, it is clear that “the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel” (2 Samuel 24:1), so God’s inciting of David to sin was a means by which he brought about punishment on the people of Israel. Moreover, the means by which God incited David is made clear in 1 Chronicles 21:1 Satan stood up against Israel, and incited David to number Israel.” The Bible shows here that God, in order to bring about His purposes, worked through Satan to incite David to sin, but Scripture regards David as being responsible for that sin.
16. After Solomon turned away from the Lord because of his foreign wives, “the LORD raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite” (1 Kings 11:14), and “God also raised up as an adversary to him, Rezon the son of Eliada” (1 Kings 11:23). These were evil kings raised up by God.
17. 1 Kings. 9:9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.
18. 1 Kings 22:23 The Lord “put a lying spirit in the mouth” of Ahab’s prophets God wills that the perfidious Ahab should be deceived; the devil offers his agency for that purpose, and is sent with a definite command to be a lying spirit in the mouth of all the prophets (2 Kings 22:20). If the blinding and infatuation of Ahab is a judgment from God, the fiction of bare permission is at an end; for it would be ridiculous for a judge only to permit, and not also to decree, what he wishes to be done at the very time that he commits the execution of it to his ministers.
19. 2 Kings 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read.
20. Job 23:13 "But He is one mind, and who can turn Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth".
21. Psalm 33:10 The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He makes the thoughts and plans of the people ineffective. 11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The thoughts and plans of His heart through all generations.
22. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
23. Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—
24. Isaiah 14:27 "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? And His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?".

 

[Fastfredy0]

1. Isaiah 31:2 Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil [some translations use “calamity”, “bad”, “woe”, “ill”, “bad things”], and will not call back his words, but will arise against the house of the evil-doers, and against the help of them that work iniquity. (ASV)
2. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
3. Isaiah 46:9-10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else! I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure".
4. Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
5. Isaiah 63:17 O Lord, why do You cause us to stray from Your ways And harden our heart from fearing You [with reverence and awe]? Return for Your servants’ sake, the tribes of Your heritage.
6. Lamentations 3:37 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has authorized and commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both adversity (misfortune) and good (prosperity, happiness) proceed?
7. Joseph’s brother were wrongly jealous of him (Genesis 37:11), hated him (Genesis 37:4, 5, 8), and wanted to kill him (Genesis 37:24) and then sold him into slavery in Egypt (Genesis 37:28). Yet later Joseph could say to his brother, “God sent me before you to preserve life” (Genesis 45:5), and “you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today” (Genesis 50:20).
8. Ezekiel 14:9b I the Lord will see to it that the prophet is deceived in his answer, and I will stretch out My hand against him and will destroy him from the midst of My people Israel.
9. Amos 3:6 Does evil befall a city, unless the LORD has done it?
10. Luke 22:22 For the Son of Man is going as it has been determined and appointed [as designed by God], but woe to that man [man held responsible] by whom He is betrayed and delivered up!
11. John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above...
12. According to the latter view, he is said to have given men over to a reprobate mind (Romans 1:28), because he is the special author of his own just vengeance; whereas Satan is only his minister (Psalm 141:4a [Lord] Do not incline my heart to [consent to or tolerate] any evil thing, Or to practice deeds of wickedness).
13. Romans 8:28, 35–36 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose...Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
14. Romans 9:11-21;
15. Romans 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and decisions and how unfathomable and untraceable are His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it would be paid back to him? 36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen.
16. Satan is also said to blind the minds of those who believe not (2 Corinthians 4:4). But how so, unless that a spirit of error is sent from God himself, making those who refuse to obey the truth to believe a lie?
17. Colossians 1:16 For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.
18. Revelation 17:17 For God has put it in their hearts to carry out His purpose by agreeing together to surrender their kingdom to the beast, until the [prophetic] words of God will be fulfilled.

God Decreed the Gravest of All Sins

God decreed the death of Christ for his own reason, namely, the redemption of his chosen ones. Likewise, he wills evil for the worthy purpose of his glory. For this same reason, he created some people for salvation and some people for damnation:

• Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men.
• Acts 4:27-28 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Paragraph 2​

Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,5 yet hath He not decreed anything, because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.6

---

5 Acts 15:18
6 Rom. 9:11,13,16,18

Not that I disagree, but I never could see why Acts 15:18 was a proof text.

 

[atpollard]

Not that I disagree, but I never could see why Acts 15:18 was a proof text.

Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,

Act 15:18 [NKJV] "Known to God from eternity are all His works.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,

Act 15:18 [NKJV] "Known to God from eternity are all His works.

You're right. My mind was fixated on the "not because He foresaw it as future" part of paragraph when I responded. My bad. I see Romans 9:16 hits on "not because He foresaw it [people choicing from their free will] as future".

 

[GodsGrace]

"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;"

• Isaiah 46:10 [ESV] declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
• Ephesians 1:11 [ESV] In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
• Hebrews 6:17 [ESV] So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
• Romans 9:15,18 [ESV] 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

... OK, that sounds pretty "in control of all things" to me?

A,
I just saw this.
I would have liked to discuss this a little.
I have the Institutes, the WCF and the 1689.

I know that as a Particular Baptist you follow the 1689.
I've never done a study as to the difference between them,
From the little I know I believe they basically say the same but in slightly different ways.

As we both get time, maybe we can go through this a little?

 

[atpollard]

A,
I just saw this.
I would have liked to discuss this a little.
I have the Institutes, the WCF and the 1689.

I know that as a Particular Baptist you follow the 1689.
I've never done a study as to the difference between them,
From the little I know I believe they basically say the same but in slightly different ways.

As we both get time, maybe we can go through this a little?

Sure.
I was posting it chapter by chapter. Is there anything in the first three chapters (already posted) that you wanted to discuss before we move on to the next chapter?

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure.
I was posting it chapter by chapter. Is there anything in the first three chapters (already posted) that you wanted to discuss before we move on to the next chapter?

It's 11 pm here.
Do we agree that
Decree refers to WHAT God has predestined.
Predesinated refers to WHO God has predestined.

I'll go through page one, but I don't know if I can THINK anymore!

 

[GodsGrace]

"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;"

• Isaiah 46:10 [ESV] declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
• Ephesians 1:11 [ESV] In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
• Hebrews 6:17 [ESV] So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
• Romans 9:15,18 [ESV] 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

... OK, that sounds pretty "in control of all things" to me?

Didn't read the verses.
God has everything under control.
But to those such as myself, this only means that nothing can happen that God does not know about
and that He ALLOWS to happen.

I know we're on a thin red line, but I do see this as being different than CAUSING all things to happen.

Agree?

 

[GodsGrace]

"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;"

• Isaiah 46:10 [ESV] declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
• Ephesians 1:11 [ESV] In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
• Hebrews 6:17 [ESV] So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
• Romans 9:15,18 [ESV] 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

... OK, that sounds pretty "in control of all things" to me?

Why did you cross out some verses and I'm I going to see this in more posts?

 

[atpollard]

It's 11 pm here.
Do we agree that
Decree refers to WHAT God has predestined.
Predesinated refers to WHO God has predestined.

I'll go through page one, but I don't know if I can THINK anymore!

It isn’t that late here, but it has been a busy day.

Go rest and pick it up tomorrow or Monday.

 

[GodsGrace]

Of the Holy Scriptures​

Chapter 1​

Paragraph 1​

The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience,1 although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet they are not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and His will which is necessary unto salvation.2 Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in diversified manners to reveal Himself, and to declare (that) His will unto His church;3 and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which makes the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now completed.4

---

1 2 Tim. 3:15–17; Is. 8:20; Luke 16:29,31; Eph. 2:20
2 Rom. 1:19-21, 2:14–15; Psalm 19:1-3
3 Heb. 1:1
4 Prov. 22:19-21; Rom. 15:4; 2 Pet. 1:19–20

Two comments:
1. I believe that scripture is our AUTHORITY. However, when I have a real doubt, I DO read up on the Early Church Fathers. Those taught by the Apostles and those immediately after. I've only had to do this maybe, two times. I remember distinctly regarding OSAS, eternal security, preservation of the saints. Each one a little different, but the same.
Maybe regarding baptism...can't remember.

2. Regarding your Montezuma argument:
I very much rely on Romans 1:19-20 which clearly states that God has ALWAYS made Himself be known.
Surely it was for salvation purposes?
The above seems to state that the revelation was not sufficient for salvation.

Now, I don't intend to debate each point with you, although if you want to stop we can.
For instance, Jesus states several times that we will be judged by our good deeds - although this flies in the face of modern ACCEPT JESUS doctrine.
If a person pre Montezuma knew about God, accepted Him in whatever way he could, and lived a life accordingly, as Jesus commanded, I do believe that person will be saved.
(but I'd really like to avoid this as it would take a lot of time and our opinion is our opinion and we're not going to change each other).

 

[GodsGrace]

Good night.

 

[atpollard]

Why did you cross out some verses and I'm I going to see this in more posts?

The Baptist Confession listed two lines as “proof texts” for the points in the Confession, but those lines only had a few lines between them. So I quoted from the first line to the second line and crossed out the lines in between that the Confession did not reference. This allows you to both see the context between those verses and to identify that they were not part of the “proof” for the confession.

 

[atpollard]

2. Regarding your Montezuma argument:
I very much rely on Romans 1:19-20 which clearly states that God has ALWAYS made Himself be known.
Surely it was for salvation purposes?
The above seems to state that the revelation was not sufficient for salvation.

The Gospel of Christ only saves those that hear and believe it. Those that cannot hear the GOSPEL (like the OT saints) are saved by the mercy of God THROUGH the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (even if they never knew about Jesus). The Montezuma question is only for those people that claim EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has heard the Gospel (to point out the folly of their position).

Romans 1:18+ talks about everyone being without excuse for not honoring GOD … it does not teach that everyone has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sure.
I was posting it chapter by chapter. Is there anything in the first three chapters (already posted) that you wanted to discuss before we move on to the next chapter?

Are we comparing CALVIN to the WCF and to the 1689?
That would be my goal, but I don't know if I'll be able to do this, but will try.
Will not be posting too much today.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Gospel of Christ only saves those that hear and believe it. Those that cannot hear the GOSPEL (like the OT saints) are saved by the mercy of God THROUGH the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (even if they never knew about Jesus). The Montezuma question is only for those people that claim EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has heard the Gospel (to point out the folly of their position).

Romans 1:18+ talks about everyone being without excuse for not honoring GOD … it does not teach that everyone has heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thanks. You've said this before....
I agree.
Not everyone has had access to the total revelation from God...the gospel.
But God has always revealed Himself from the beginning of time.

 

[atpollard]

Are we comparing CALVIN to the WCF and to the 1689?
That would be my goal, but I don't know if I'll be able to do this, but will try.
Will not be posting too much today.

You are welcome to, but I offer this caveat:

I am a Particular Baptist, so MY CONFESSION is the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message (which is neutral on the Particular/General Baptist question since most Baptist Churches contain a mixture). Since the current Baptist Faith and Message traces its roots to the original 1689 Baptist Confession (and both the 1689 and I are Particular Baptist in outlook) I am willing to defend what it states [or admit that I disagree].

The WCF has true Presbytyrian/Reformed origins, rather than Baptist origins and does not represent my beliefs. The writings of John Calvin represent the opinions of John Calvin and, also, are not representative of Baptist beliefs. Therefore, I will discuss similarities and differences, but I will not attempt to defend EITHER the WCF or John Calvin in this topic.

Here is a simple BAPTIST HISTORY explanation of why: The earliest reformers (Luther, Calvin) attempted to reform the corruption in the Catholic Church of Rome from which they came. Even the ANGLICANS share this distinction of being "reformed Catholics" in origin. To them and their doctrines, "Sola Scriptura" means that Tradition and Scripture both have value and where they conflict, SCRIPTURE takes preeminence. Baptists emerge a century or two after Luther and Calvin (and the earliest reformers) as a second wave shaped by a new understanding and a new tool for understanding. With PRINTING and VERNACULAR BIBLES, the word of God was available for people to read unfiltered by a professional clergy. From this emerged the Baptist movement and distinctives:

• Priesthood of believer: The Holy spirit is capable of leading each individual into the truth of God and each person is resposible for their own relationship with God ... God saves specific INDIVIDUALS, not groups.
• "Sola Scriptura" means that the only "tradition" that matters is the tradition recorded in the 66 books of the sacred Bible. All HUMAN traditions are rejected as non-authoritative.

The list goes on, but these TWO explain why neither the WCF nor JOHN CALVIN can accurately speak for Baptists like ME ... They do not hold our core beliefs, so their conclusions are shaped by Catholic Traditions which we openly reject because they ARE Traditions not recorded by God in His Holy Scripture ... our ONLY AUTHORITY. [ie. Paul created independent LOCAL CHURCHES in each town, so Baptists create independent local churches in each town; the biblical word "baptizo" (baptize) means to plunge under, so Baptists baptize by plunging under, etc.]