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1689 London Confession

Why did you choose the pair of socks you chose and not the other pair?
Well, I'm in Canuckland currently and only packed 4 pairs of which 2 were dirty. I suppose I picked the clean pair that was closest and thus most convenient as that choice would satisfy my desires best. Of course, this doesn't address why I choose the socks that became dirty earlier, why I choose those 4 pairs when I left Texas or how I packed my luggage, or how the luggage was jostled and the socks potentially moved around or a 1000 things I can't think of .... conclusion: I don't know for sure

What was the REASON that controlled your choice which God placed into your mind?
Deut. 29:29
 
Chapter 9, Paragraph 1
God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
  • Matt. 17:12 [NASB] "but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wanted. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.
  • James 1:14 [NASB] "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust."
  • Deut. 30:19 [NASB] "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,"
The 1689 Baptist Confession claims that God has "endued" man with "acting upon choice" and offers 3 verses (quoted above) in support. First, let's be blunt ... as a Particular Baptist and a 5-popint MONERGIST, I believe that there are SOME THINGS that man cannot choose because we (in our fallen state) WILL NOT choose them ... so God chooses to save us before we can choose to believe God [Grace]. However, scripture SAYS what it SAYS and I will not deny it or pit scripture against scripture, so what of the three verses!

As a Baptist, it is the FACT that God wrote such verses that General Baptists (synergist / free will) exist and will continue to exist until Jesus returns and ends the confusion by revealing the PERFECT TRUTH. So, setting aside "Philosophy" and "Logic" ... do we BELIEVE the word of God?
  • Do we believe what Matthew wrote, that they did "whatever THEY wanted"?
  • Do we believe what James wrote, that we are tempted by "[OUR] own lusts"?
  • Do we believe what Moses wrote, that "life and death" was placed before them (us) and they (we) are called to "CHOOSE life"?
Did God mean what He wrote or is it some sort of CRUEL MOCKERY? [Like telling a beggar "Are you hungry, then just get a job!" or shouting out to a drowning man "Just swim!"]

Since I cannot believe God is engaging in the mockery of asking what men CANNOT do, I must agree with the Confession that we CAN do what God asks and reconcile it with other verses by acknowledging that if "we all can" and "nobody does" [Romans 3:10-12] then EVERYONE must CHOOSE wrong (not to). Thus men "cannot" because they "will not" rather than because God has asked the impossible of men. If I am correct (a HUGE, GINORMOUS "IF") then WE are responsible for our own damnation ... we will not do what we can, but are unwilling to do. That applies to everyone ... saints and sinners [see Ephesians 2:1-5].
 
Chapter 9, Paragraph 1
"... nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."​

Chapter 9, Paragraph 3​

"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."​

Not to discuss the support or veracity, but merely to point out that the Confession both acknowledges that the freedom that God gave allowed both GOOD and EVIL of man, but our FALLEN STATE prohibits us from "all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation". Whatever else man may do, the confession affirms that salvation is 100% OF GOD!
 
atpollard
brightfame52
Fastfredy0

For everyone:

Atpollard, you've been rolling along and I had a health issue so I'm very far behind your posts.

I'd like to get back to:
Chapter 2
God and the Holy Trinity
2.1

Second paragraph:
He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Doesn't this confirm that God rewards those who seek Him?
Brighfame has stated repeatedly that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
I've posted many verses that state the man IS able to seek God and is REQUIRED to seek God.
I'm not posting them again because I don't care to debate this.
I'd just like your comments.
 
do we BELIEVE the word of God?
We all believe the word of God. We don't all agree to what God's word means/entails.


Do we believe what Matthew wrote, that they did "whatever THEY wanted"?
Yes, I believe it. People always do what they want if they can. What they want to do is controlled by God. God wants all of Adam's children to have a sin nature and they all do. Now, a God given sin nature controls what they do. People freely obey their sin nature.
I chose freely within the confines of my list of desires, said list created by God; said list modified by God upon regeneration.


  • Do we believe what James wrote, that we are tempted by "[OUR] own lusts"?
  • Do we believe what Moses wrote, that "life and death" was placed before them (us) and they (we) are called to "CHOOSE life"?
Yes. ... again, they desires were formed by God so they did what they wanted and they did what God wanted. God always gets what He wants.


Since I cannot believe God is engaging in the mockery of asking what men CANNOT do,
God asks us to do the impossible ... Christ told dead Lazarus to get up. No one thinks Lazarus did it on his own.
God tells us to obey the law knowing we can't do it. When we get to heaven God will adjust our desires so we will be able to obey perfectly.
God tells us to believe salvificly knowing we can't do it on our own.


WE are responsible for our own damnation
Responsibly requires a law giver. If a law giver tells Joe he must leap 50 feet in the air to jump over a creek and if he does not do so he will get wet then Joe is responsible do it and he is responsible for getting wet.
God tells us to obey all His commands and if we don't we will "get wet".
 
He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Doesn't this confirm that God rewards those who seek Him?
Brighfame has stated repeatedly that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
I've posted many verses that state the man IS able to seek God and is REQUIRED to seek God.

Premise 1: No one seeks God [on their own]
Premise 2: People seek God [but not on their own]
Premise 3; God is the cause of ALL THINGS
Conclusion:
Who controls your desires? God controlling you as a necessary consequence of your very existence. God is not just your creator but he's your sustainer (see preservation, Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36, Job 34:14-15) and he's your sustainer at all moments so he has caused you to come into existence when He created you and He causes you to continue to exist as He sustains you. Is anybody going dare say that God is not in control of his own sustaining power. He was in control of how He created things. He was in control of precisely the way in which his creative power brought things into existence … why would it not logically follow then that God is in absolute control of His sustaining power and the way He keeps things in existence and if that truth is applicable to every particle of your existence that would include your will, your thoughts, your choices, your emotions, all of you. This points out a false assumption on the “free will” side that God can somehow create things that he does not control. Josh Sketo
 
wondering

Brighfame has stated repeatedly that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
Correct, man by nature, the unregenerate Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Thats word seeketh is the same word seek in Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So the ones who diligently seek Him must be the regenerate. Otherwise the dont seek Him nor understand God.
 
Atpollard, you've been rolling along and I had a health issue so I'm very far behind your posts.

I'd like to get back to:
Chapter 2
God and the Holy Trinity
2.1

Second paragraph:
He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Doesn't this confirm that God rewards those who seek Him?
Brighfame has stated repeatedly that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
I've posted many verses that state the man IS able to seek God and is REQUIRED to seek God.
I'm not posting them again because I don't care to debate this.
I'd just like your comments.
It is a strange paragraph, overall, is it not ...

Chapter 2, Paragraph 1​

  1. The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of Himself, infinite in being and perfection;
  2. whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but Himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;
  3. who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute;
  4. working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, for His own glory;
  5. most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;
  6. the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him, and withal most just and terrible in His judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
I have stripped it of the keynote references to verses (everything it says about God, God said in scripture), and split it along the natural breaks of semicolons ( ; ) within the paragraph. Notice that each and every section contains something either paradoxical (God seems self-contradictory) or is simply beyond human comprehension.

Starting at 1 (above) just for an example ... "The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of Himself, infinite in being and perfection" ...
  • Right out of the gate, "the Lord our God" makes me think of the Father and the Son ... "is but one only living and true God" [smack] right into the paradox of Father + Son + Spirit = 1 God ...
  • "in and of himself" ... there is NOTHING like God so all analogies are bad analogies. How do you set out to comprehend, the incomprehensible?
  • "infinite in being and perfection" ... and we are none of either! We are FINITE, making "infinite" beyond our ability to comprehend. We are very flawed, making "perfection" far beyond our grasp. How does a germ even begin to contemplate the ecosystem that supports the great whale? What frame of reference can it even begin with? Yet the Germ is closer to the whale than we are to God in nature (Both are at least finite material beings).

So by the time we get to #6, we have many great and paradoxical and incomprehensible truths about God already revealed to us. God does "reward those that diligently seek Him" (as He said we would). We are the living proof of that. Nobody "diligently seeks him" ... (if we are honest, even at our best it falls in the same category as "loving God with all your heart and mind and strength": Do you love God so much that you are incapable of loving Him more?) ... Are you incapable of seeking God any better than you presently do every moment of every day? Then we have John 3 and John 6 and Ephesians 2 and a hundred more places where God reaches out to us ... How about Philippians 2:13 where "it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure."

So the same God that rewards those that seek him (and makes sure that we do by God providing the "diligence") simultaneously is "most just and terrible in His judgments" ... JUST meaning that we are GUILTY of what we are guilty of. The same God hates "all sin" ... so "our sin stinks, too" ... and that same God "will by no means clear the guilty" ... and we are guilty.

So it is not an EITHER/OR ... The confession is pointing to the incomprehensible OTHERNESS of God who is ALL OF THE ABOVE. I think that the Confession started here so that we would leave some room for HUMILITY in patting ourselves on the back for whatever clever answer we think we UNDERSTAND. Remember how things went for Job when he tried to question God about WHY?

  • God asks us to DILIGENTLY SEEK Him.
  • That implies that we can.
  • That doesn't mean that we can.
  • Other verses are just as clear that we don't.
  • Still other's say that we can't.
  • Some verses are clear that God makes us seek him.
  • Does that mean WE seek Him or HE draws Us ... (I dunno. God drew me because I wasn't looking for God.) :shrug
 
Faith is a work. A work is a physical or mental exertion to accomplish a purpose. With faith the exertion is mental and the purpose is salvation. Now to the apparent contradiction of Roman 11:6 that my statement presents.
If faith is a work how can it be a gift? The answer is simple, the work of faith is done by the Spirit that causes one to believe salvificly (regeneration/born again). Since the Spirit does the work that causes us to believe it is thus a gift as man does nothing but exercise the faith/gift he has been given. This is confirmed in John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent”. THis verse speaks of belief being a work of God.

Sorry, I couldn't really answer before. Got my computer back!! :)

If the work of faith is done by the Holy Spirit, and not by man, then it is not a work on man's part.
I think brightfame52 means that it's a work by man. He can clarify.

Agreed on the rest.

brightfame52 never comprehends this concept and always says this is works salvation on man's part.

He doesn't understand the logic.

Bright's logic
Premise 1: Faith is a requirement of salvation
Conclusion: Man saved by his works
.. everyone know premise 1 is true but he comes to a faulty conclusion

But then I'm correct when I state that very simple verses are taken out of context by some.
Ephesians 2:8 states very clearly what you've stated above ....
why not just believe Ephesians?
Rhetorical question, of course.

This is the fix to his logic
Premise 1: Faith is a requirement of salvation
Premise 2: Faith is the work of God (John 6:29)
Conclusion: Man NOT saved by his work of faith; rather, he is saved by God's work/gift of causing you to believe

Bright will not get this ...seen him over and over and over again wrongly accuse people of works salvation.
Agreed.
 
Grace can be a work.... I'll go further and say Grace is always a work
Grace is something one does to accomplish a purpose
Something one does to accomplish a purpose is the definition of work
Love is work
. Love is something one does to accomplish a purpose which is the definition of work. Love is showing favor to a person. You cannot love a person and not favor a person. To favor a person is to do things that are advantageous to a person which is work.
So, if God causes you to believe that is work (something He does to accomplish a purpose); and work that favors a person is love (an act of favoring).
Grace is unmerited favor/love.
I gave you a like because I've never thought of this.
You seem to be sure.
Thanks for bringing this up.

I guess grace includes work.
I have a cat.
I feed him.
This is work for me, but I do it freely for him.
Interesting....
 
I have a degree in science. I know what THEORY means. (Gee, I finally get to use my degree for something ... giggle)
Theory - a rational type of abstract thinking about a phenomenon, or the results of such thinking. The process of contemplative and rational thinking is often associated with such processes as observational study or research.

Because the reason of Atonement is classified as a theory I know it is just various people's opinion and that does not motivate me to get to deeply into it. I read some of the opinions and it seems they have minor flaws and some supporting evidence.



:chin My guess is we don't know if one goes more deeply into subject. At a high level Jesus, the son of man, died because he was obedient to the Father and the Son of Man in Jesus was a strong motivator. Get deeper and deeper and you will find a point where you are guessing.
FF,
I mean THEORY like the Theory of Relativity.
The Big Bang Theory.

You know, they're not theories in the normal sense of the word.
It's always called a theory...
when it really is a theory, and if it gets proven then the word theory remains in the title but it's not a theory anymore.
 
It is less that I "have a problem" with it and more "people see what isn't there". I was taught PSA and it makes perfect sense. God has every reason to be angry at sin and it would certainly explain WHY Jesus' death was so BRUTAL (none of the OT sacrifices involve torturing the Lamb or Bull before killing it). The problem came when someone challenged me to show them where SCRIPTURE says that God punished Jesus with the punishment that He should have given to US.

It's the same as in the OT.
The sins were transferred onto the animal being sacrificed and then killed to appease God.

God certainly has the right to hate sin.
But being wrathful is different.
It's a quality of character.

ME being ME, immediately set out to do just that. What I found in SCRIPTURE was a very different picture of how and why God forgives. PSA rests on the FACTS that Jesus suffered and sin was PROPITIATED and then ASSUMES that it was to PAY GOD'S JUSTICE a punishment that was demanded from US.

But this is the problem with the PST.
It's to appease a wrathful God, NOT to pay God's justice as your above claims.

The Atonement Theory that seeks to appease God's JUSTICE is the Satisfaction Theory.

There's a great difference between the two.
One shows a wrathful and mean God
One shows a just God.

I do believe God is a just God.

Ezekiel 18: [NLT]
1 Then another message came to me from the LORD: 2 “Why do you quote this proverb concerning the land of Israel: ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children’s mouths pucker at the taste’? 3 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, you will not quote this proverb anymore in Israel. 4 For all people are mine to judge—both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die.​
5 “Suppose a certain man is righteous and does what is just and right. 6 He does not feast in the mountains before Israel’s idols or worship them. He does not commit adultery or have intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period. 7 He is a merciful creditor, not keeping the items given as security by poor debtors. He does not rob the poor but instead gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. 8 He grants loans without interest, stays away from injustice, is honest and fair when judging others, 9 and faithfully obeys my decrees and regulations. Anyone who does these things is just and will surely live, says the Sovereign LORD.​
10 “But suppose that man has a son who grows up to be a robber or murderer and refuses to do what is right. 11 And that son does all the evil things his father would never do—he worships idols on the mountains, commits adultery, 12 oppresses the poor and helpless, steals from debtors by refusing to let them redeem their security, worships idols, commits detestable sins, 13 and lends money at excessive interest. Should such a sinful person live? No! He must die and must take full blame.​
14 “But suppose that sinful son, in turn, has a son who sees his father’s wickedness and decides against that kind of life. 15 This son refuses to worship idols on the mountains and does not commit adultery. 16 He does not exploit the poor, but instead is fair to debtors and does not rob them. He gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. 17 He helps the poor, does not lend money at interest, and obeys all my regulations and decrees. Such a person will not die because of his father’s sins; he will surely live. 18 But the father will die for his many sins—for being cruel, robbing people, and doing what was clearly wrong among his people.​
19 “‘What?’ you ask. ‘Doesn’t the child pay for the parent’s sins?’ No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.​
23 “Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. 24 However, if righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things and act like other sinners, should they be allowed to live? No, of course not! All their righteous acts will be forgotten, and they will die for their sins.​
25 “Yet you say, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right!’ Listen to me, O people of Israel. Am I the one not doing what’s right, or is it you? 26 When righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things, they will die for it. Yes, they will die because of their sinful deeds. 27 And if wicked people turn from their wickedness, obey the law, and do what is just and right, they will save their lives. 28 They will live because they thought it over and decided to turn from their sins. Such people will not die. 29 And yet the people of Israel keep saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right!’ O people of Israel, it is you who are not doing what’s right, not I.​
30 “Therefore, I will judge each of you, O people of Israel, according to your actions, says the Sovereign LORD. Repent, and turn from your sins. Don’t let them destroy you! 31 Put all your rebellion behind you, and find yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O people of Israel? 32 I don’t want you to die, says the Sovereign LORD. Turn back and live!​

What If:​

God forgives because it is in his nature to forgive, and God stores wrath until the "day of wrath" because it is in His nature to store wrath until the final judgement. Then Christ DIED as a sin offering, and Christ SUFFERED to remove the dark heart of stone within us ... Christ the REDEEMER ... Christ VICTORIOUS ... Christ who suffered at the hands of evil men in a fallen world just as we do (the HIGH PRIEST that UNDERSTANDS)!

God who cannot forgive until he "gets his pound of flesh" is an invention of man rather than the words of Scripture. That is my "problem" with PSA ... it isn't what Scripture actually says!
Agreed.
And, of course, we are each responsible for our own sins.


PS
I forgot to post the following link which lists both the Satisfaction Theory and the Penal Sub Theory so the difference is very plain to anyone reading along that might be interested.


 
Last edited:
Sorry, I couldn't really answer before. Got my computer back!! :)
Oh, oh ... now we're in trouble... :)


If the work of faith is done by the Holy Spirit, and not by man, then it is not a work on man's part.
I think @brightfame52 means that it's a work by man. He can clarify.
Well, he never clarifies when we get into the finer details.
It becomes a semantic entanglement.


Oh, I didn't know there is a "popcorn" meme .. kewl


I guess grace includes work.
I have a cat.
I feed him.
This is work for me, but I do it freely for him.
Interesting....
Yeah, someone has to do the work. Some guy smarter than I put it this way where cause and work are synonymous:

Cause (work)​

(Using Sculpture as an example of terminology and language of Aristotle’s distinctions of causality)
Efficient Cause the main cause is the sculptor
Material Cause the substance that is changed or made I.E. make the sculpture
Formal Cause is the idea or blueprint that is used by the efficient cause using the material
Final Cause is the purpose

Instrumental Cause are the instruments used to change the material (chisel)
Meritorious Cause what merited the change to the substance

Calvin: The
efficient cause of our salvation is placed in the love of God the Father; the material cause in the obedience of the Son; the instrumental cause in the illumination of the Spirit, that is, in faith; and the final cause in the praise of the divine goodness. Man is the sculpture.


I mean THEORY like the Theory of Relativity.
The Big Bang Theory.
Yes. The idea of how something works based on repeatable observation with no exceptions.
 
Oh, oh ... now we're in trouble... :)
Yeah.
Can't really write too much on those cells.
:helmet

Well, he never clarifies when we get into the finer details.
It becomes a semantic entanglement.



Oh, I didn't know there is a "popcorn" meme .. kewl

Yes.
We aim to please!

Yeah, someone has to do the work. Some guy smarter than I put it this way where cause and work are synonymous:

Cause (work)​

(Using Sculpture as an example of terminology and language of Aristotle’s distinctions of causality)
Efficient Cause the main cause is the sculptor
Material Cause the substance that is changed or made I.E. make the sculpture
Formal Cause is the idea or blueprint that is used by the efficient cause using the material
Final Cause is the purpose
Instrumental Cause are the instruments used to change the material (chisel)
Meritorious Cause what merited the change to the substance

Calvin: The
efficient cause of our salvation is placed in the love of God the Father; the material cause in the obedience of the Son; the instrumental cause in the illumination of the Spirit, that is, in faith; and the final cause in the praise of the divine goodness. Man is the sculpture.
I know about Instrumental Cause and maybe Meritorious Cause.
Merit
To merit something is different than earning something.

If I cut someone's lawn and get paid for it, that is work.

If I cut someone's lawn and get money for it but it's not a payment.
It's a way of the owner to show his appreciation,
It's a meritorious payment...not earned but merited.

In English the word DESERVED is used more.
"He DESERVES" a recompense".

In the Romance Languages the word MERIT is used a lot and much better understood,
even in the biblical sense.
 
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