1689 London Confession

[GodsGrace]

I assume "it" means 'salvation via faith requiring the knowledge of Christ'.
.... well, as I said, the knowledge of the contents of saving faith before Christ and how one obtained it is a matter for debate as there is not a lot of info so I avoid it for the most part though a I general inclinations.

I said yes to your idea of limiting salvation without the knowledge of Christ to the last 2000 years.
But, really, what's the difference?

If someone never heard of Jesus 3,000 years ago and someone never heard of Jesus 1,500 years ago,
is there a real difference?
Jesus died for EVERYONE, no matter when they were born.
I believe I stated that if someone is in heaven, it's through the sacrifice of Jesus, no matter when that person died.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

I know you don't agree, but the following verses IMO point out that Gentiles before Christ (I assume after Israel came about) all went to hell (isolated exceptions)

How did all Gentiles go to hell if they can be saved by Romans 1:19-20 and
Romans 2:6
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
I see no timeline above.
God is outside of time.
He will render a just judgment, from the beginning, even before there was any bible written.
Noah's faith and desire to obey God saved him,,,
The others were given time but they did not obey God or believe Him.
They did not seek after God, as God has stated many times that mankind should.
Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
How do you explain Luke 16?
There was hell, and there was Abraham's Bossom.
The saved were waiting for the resurrection in Abraham's Bossom...(paradise).

Eph 2:12 remember that at that time you were separated from Christ [excluded from any relationship with Him], alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise [with no share in the sacred Messianic promise and without knowledge of God’s agreements], having no hope [in His promise] and [living] in the world without God. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

If you keep reading you'll find that Ephesians 2:12 is speaking about how the Gentiles were not aware of how God works in the world, how He had planned for person's salvation, and how it was Jesus that tore down the wall between Jews (the chosen to reveal God fully through Jesus) and the Gentiles.

Needless to say, those who do not know Jesus and God personally are surely missing a lot.

Ephesians 2:6-16
6For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
7So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
9Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
10For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
[Oneness and Peace in Christ]
11Don’t forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called “uncircumcised heathens” by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts.
12In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope.
13But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.
14For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us.
15He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups.
16Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.

Even though a person may have been saved without the knowledge of Jesus,
we are surely blessed, those of us who know Him and follow Him.

Circumstantial Evidence that Gentiles excluded from salvation
Acts 10 ... the story of Peter and Cornelius ... 28 He said to them, “You know that it is unlawful for a Jewish man to associate with or befriend a Gentile,... next thing you know Peter learns that Christ is for the Gentiles too. Peter, at Christ's side for years and only after Christ's death does he (probably years later) come to realize Christ died for Gentiles too.

Yes. Well this is also the reason behind Romans 9, but we won't get too into that.
The Jews thought they had God all to themselves...
but the promise, through Abraham and David was for all mankind.
The above is also answered by my statement above...
Jesus joined the two factions.

Cornelius, BTW, was a devout, God-fearing man BEFORE he heard about Jesus.
He was like Lydia, also in Acts.

Matthew 12:21 “And in His name the Gentiles (all the nations of the world) will hope [with confidence].”
Granted, not open and shut proof ... but implied truth
Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (more weak proof)

The above has to do with a different idea.
Jesus was sent to the Jews,,,the lost sheep of Isrea.
But He also said that He had sheep in another fold...
John 10:16 Jesus was speaking of the Gentiles.
Of which He would make ONE FOLD...as in Eph 2:16

John 10:16
16I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

Premise 1: Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the [preaching of the] message concerning Christ. AMP
Premise 2: Billions of people never heard of Christ
Conclusion: No chance of salvation for those who never heard of Christ (at least of last 2000 years)
.... of course, this has larger implications that I know you don't care for like:

• God doesn't love everyone (or at least doesn't love them enough to give them a chance for salvation ... God loves everyone in the sense that "the rain falls on the good and the wicked")
• Christ died for everyone makes no sense as dying for most people has not purpose.

Faith come by hearing for those who hear.
Those who hear and believe not are lost.

What about those who never hear?
Did Lydia hear?
Did Cornelius hear?
Did Joseph hear?
Pick any person in Hebrews 11....did they hear?

Then how were THEY saved?
By faith.

The same faith those that had never heard of Jesus had in the Living God, the True God
(not some pagan god).

 

[GodsGrace]

You are only assuming that “knowing God in some limited way” is sufficient to save you (someone, not YOU specifically). Romans 1 doesn’t actually SAY THAY, does it. All it says is that they knew there was a God and are GUILTY and WITHOUT EXCUSE for their choice to not HONOR HIM as God.

The strength of your view is that is makes God merciful and kind, but the flaw of that view is that it means people don’t NEED Jesus … He is not THE DOOR, but only A DOOR to God (and that ain’t Biblical).

If someone KNOWS God enough to let them be guilty and without excuse, it must mean that the knowledge is sufficient for responsibility...
So if they are then responsible to honor Him as God, and they do - they are saved (still through Jesus' sacrifice),
If they are then responsible to honor God and they do not - then they are lost.

God is not only merciful and kind...what I state is that God is:
LOVING
MERCIFUL
JUST

God IS all 3 and more.
Jesus is the door.
All are saved THROUGH HIM.
1 John 2:2

In John 10 where Jesus states He is the door, He also states that He has other sheep in other folds.
The Gentiles, of course.

I'm having a conversation with Fastfredy0 in this very thread.
There's more there, I won't duplicate.

Luke 12:48 To whom much is given, much will be required.
We will be judged by the light we receive.
God is truly Just.

 

[GodsGrace]

“Paragraph 1 appears to make several very bold statements about SCRIPTURE:

1. Knowledge of salvation is impossible without scripture (nature will not tell you enough for salvation).”

You may disagree with the CONFESSION, but I am almost 100% certain that I have read and understood the confession correctly and MY “number 1” is a correct statement of what the Confession teaches.

“The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience,1 although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet they are not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and His will which is necessary unto salvation.2 Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in diversified manners to reveal Himself, and to declare (that) His will unto His church;3 and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which makes the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now completed.4”

Would you like to examine the SCRIPTURE that the Confession claims support its case and see if they say what the Confession claims they say (like the Bereans)?

I lost count, but there are about 40 verses to support the above.
I don't have the time the Bereans did to go over each one!
Of course the writers of the above believed they had biblical support.
The entire problem is that we read verses differently.

But I will comment on each paragraph that I believe presents a problem to the other side of the fence...

First, regarding the above, there's the convo with FF that shows the opposite point of view regarding natural proof of God, also the conscience being proof of God, and an innate need for a "superior being" that God has placed in each of us.
If man is without excuse, I repeat, it means that the knowledge is sufficient for salvation or not.

A question re Chapter 1, Paragraph 1 - stated above:

It states that God has made Himself known in other ways - through nature for example.
Why does the last sentence state that THE FORMER WAYS OF GOD'S REVEALING HIS WILL UNTO HIS PEOPLE
BEING NOW COMPLETED...??

Highlighted by me.

 

[GodsGrace]

atpollard

Regarding chapter 1, paragraph 1,
following are the posts addressing the question of the sufficiency of different methods to save...
namely, in this case, nature and creation.

posts
46
48
49
52
54
61
62

 

[Fastfredy0]

If someone never heard of Jesus 3,000 years ago and someone never heard of Jesus 1,500 years ago,
is there a real difference?

YES, at least as far as what one is to believe to be saved.
Premise 1: Faith requires things to believed by definition.
Premise 2: Obviously, 3000 years ago no one believed the Messiah would die and be resurrected. In fact, no one knew anything about the human nature of Christ and probably the Trinity was a unknown concept
Premise 3: Faith is required by salvation
Conclusion: The last 2000 years the Bible is clear that knowledge of Christ is needed for salvation whereas such knowledge like death and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4) no one had more than 2000 years ago

Aside: I try to avoid salvation for those who lived more than 2000 years ago as it is not essential to us and the content of faith has changed.

Jesus died for EVERYONE, no matter when they were born.
I believe I stated that if someone is in heaven, it's through the sacrifice of Jesus, no matter when that person died.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Well, IMO gave a reasonable reason to interpret those verses another way and I could give a myriad of verses to support my contention. You did not respond to my contention that God gives billions of people no chance of salvation and therefore there is no logical reason to think He died for those people.
I know this argument. Your side has 6 verses (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, John 6:51, 1 Timothy 2:4,6) to seem to validate your side. All the verses use 1 of 3 ambiguous words: ALL, WORLD, EVERYONE(which is a synonym for ALL). I can give ample verses to show that these words are ambiguous.

How did all Gentiles go to hell if they can be saved by Romans 1:19-20 and

There is no mention of salvation (how one gets to heaven) in Romans 1 and therefore your point is mute.

Romans 2:6
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
I see no timeline above.

You lost me.

God is outside of time.
He will render a just judgment, from the beginning, even before there was any bible written.
Noah's faith and desire to obey God saved him,,,
The others were given time but they did not obey God or believe Him.

Agreed. Point 3 does not contain what the content of Noah's faith was. (Again, content of salvation in O.T. cloudy so best to go to N.T. where information is clearer. We have no idea what people of point 4 didn't believe that was needed for salvation) Deal with the N.T. where we have scripture to help us.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Premise 1:

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Premise 2: Romans 3:11 no one seeks God
Conclusion: All of humanity goes to hell, but this contradicts scripture as we know some go to heaven. How does one solve the contradiction?
______________________________________-
Premise 1:

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Premise 2: Romans 3:11 no one seeks God
Premise 3: There are two solutions to help a sinner that is lost. 1) He finds God; but was saw from the above logic that this is not possible ... 2) God finds the lost sinner
Conclusion: If God finds you, you can be saved. You can't find Him.

How do you explain Luke 16?
There was hell, and there was Abraham's Bossom.
The saved were waiting for the resurrection in Abraham's Bossom...(paradise).

Gee ... I don't see the connection to our discussion. Also, I try to avoid getting doctrine out of parables.

Aside: So many questions .. I am starting to lose track of what we are trying to solve... I think we are supposed to be talking about Romans 1 and whether or not there is a method for salvation from "general (natural) revelation" ... we need to stay on track IMO

 

[Fastfredy0]

Even though a person may have been saved without the knowledge of Jesus,

You have yet to use scripture to point out how this is done. I don't think one should postulate aspects of God with no direct evidence.

we are surely blessed, those of us who know Him and follow Him.

Agreed

Cornelius, BTW, was a devout, God-fearing man BEFORE he heard about Jesus.
He was like Lydia, also in Acts.

Agreed... the point of our contention is the reason why Corneilius was God-fearing. I say God caused him to be that way and you say he did so via free will .... but let's not go further on that point.
God-fearing, yes. The point at which he is saved is not clear; I assume it was with Peter's visit ... faith cometh by hearing. (Aside: Even Muslims are god-fearing... though they fear another god).

The above has to do with a different idea.
Jesus was sent to the Jews,,,the lost sheep of Isrea.
But He also said that He had sheep in another fold...
John 10:16 Jesus was speaking of the Gentiles.
Of which He would make ONE FOLD...as in Eph 2:16

Agreed ... I was trying to point out the Jesus, while on earth, came for the Jews only and use that info as minor evidence that the Gentiles were out of the picture till after His death. It's an minor point that seems to favor my contention that Gentiles were lost and without hope (doomed to hell).

What about those who never hear?
Did Lydia hear?
Did Cornelius hear?
Did Joseph hear?
Pick any person in Hebrews 11....did they hear?

Since the Bible says faith [always] cometh by hearing.
Logic dictates the ALWAYS to be true. You cannot believe in Christ without hearing of Him. That is IMPOSSIBLE. Thus, faith always come by hearing. If anyone you know is a Christian he must of heard the salvific message.
Regarding O.T. saints ... again, you keep going back to a time where we do not have the information needed to answer salvific question as easily. We don't know what Daniel or Joseph or whoever back then had to believe to be saved so speculation can't lead to multiple unsubstantiated theories. What ever they had to believe, they had to be told about it in order to believe it.

 

[atpollard]

It states that God has made Himself known in other ways - through nature for example.
Why does the last sentence state that THE FORMER WAYS OF GOD'S REVEALING HIS WILL UNTO HIS PEOPLE
BEING NOW COMPLETED...??

Highlighted by me.

It means the Bible is closed. God is not sending Apostles to write more books or any new OT Prophets to lead the Nation. God has provided EVERYTHING that we need in His Word and God has provided His Holy Spirit to help us understand His Word. Another Moses or Elijah or Paul is not needed ... we have better (availible to EVERY CHRISTIAN).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Another proof text that one cannot be saved without knowledge of Christ (as always Age of Accountability is side issue)

Premise 1: Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so I now say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from that which you received [from us], let him be condemned to destruction!
Conclusion: There is only ONE gospel of salvation. Thus, billions of people who do not hear of Christ are condemned.

 

[GodsGrace]

It means the Bible is closed. God is not sending Apostles to write more books or any new OT Prophets to lead the Nation. God has provided EVERYTHING that we need in His Word and God has provided His Holy Spirit to help us understand His Word. Another Moses or Elijah or Paul is not needed ... we have better (availible to EVERY CHRISTIAN).

Yes I agree with your statement.

To me that last sentence means that God had other methods of revealing Himself and now, due to the fact that it is all written down, those old ways are obsolete.

Chapter 1.1

“The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience,1 although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet they are not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and His will which is necessary unto salvation.2 Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in diversified manners to reveal Himself, and to declare (that) His will unto His church;3 and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which makes the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now completed.4”


The FORMER ways are completed.
However, yes, there is to be no new revelation.

 

[GodsGrace]

You have yet to use scripture to point out how this is done. I don't think one should postulate aspects of God with no direct evidence.



Agreed



Agreed... the point of our contention is the reason why Corneilius was God-fearing. I say God caused him to be that way and you say he did so via free will .... but let's not go further on that point.
God-fearing, yes. The point at which he is saved is not clear; I assume it was with Peter's visit ... faith cometh by hearing. (Aside: Even Muslims are god-fearing... though they fear another god).



Agreed ... I was trying to point out the Jesus, while on earth, came for the Jews only and use that info as minor evidence that the Gentiles were out of the picture till after His death. It's an minor point that seems to favor my contention that Gentiles were lost and without hope (doomed to hell).



Since the Bible says faith [always] cometh by hearing.
Logic dictates the ALWAYS to be true. You cannot believe in Christ without hearing of Him. That is IMPOSSIBLE. Thus, faith always come by hearing. If anyone you know is a Christian he must of heard the salvific message.
Regarding O.T. saints ... again, you keep going back to a time where we do not have the information needed to answer salvific question as easily. We don't know what Daniel or Joseph or whoever back then had to believe to be saved so speculation can't lead to multiple unsubstantiated theories. What ever they had to believe, they had to be told about it in order to believe it.

I've used scripture FF.
You always accuse me of this.
Romans 1:19-20
Romans 2:7-15
Luke 12:48

and more.

I'll answer your last post after dinner.
I think it's the one above...

 

[Fastfredy0]

I've used scripture FF.
You always accuse me of this.
Romans 1:19-20
Romans 2:7-15
Luke 12:48

I'm not sure what question you're using these scriptures to answer. I assume it is: "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?
I assume we agree that everyone is saved by faith... with that in mind ...
Romans 1:19-20 ... I see nothing in here that says ones faith in something will cause one to be saved ... could you point it out? What in these verses does it show 1)what a person believe and 2) show the verses pertain to salvation.

Romans 2:7-15 ... I see nothing in here that says ones faith in something will cause one to be saved ... could you point it out? (Granted, I see a promise of salvation for those that do certain works ... but then you have to explain the many verses that say we are not saved by works.... if you are saying we are saved by works alone then you will have to explain verses like : Romans 3:28 For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Luke 12:48 .... there is nothing salvific in the verse. It's about rewards/punishment and not about what one must do to be saved that does not know of Christ. Aside: I try to avoid parables when explaining things as they can be twisted to mean so many things

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure what question you're using these scriptures to answer. I assume it is: "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?
I assume we agree that everyone is saved by faith... with that in mind ...

Just got here.
Will also answer the other post.

Yes.
Everyone is saved by faith in God.

Romans 1:19-20 ... I see nothing in here that says ones faith in something will cause one to be saved ... could you point it out? What in these verses does it show 1)what a person believe and 2) show the verses pertain to salvation.

We've been through this FF.
I'm not going to go on forever - Not on any thread.
Last time explaining this....

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident [n]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God made mankind with an innate attribute that makes man know that there is a being superior to him.
It is EVIDENT WITHIN THEM. Because GOD MADE IT EVIDEN TO THEM.

God's attributes, power and divine nature HAVE BEEN CLEARLY PERCEIVED,
so that they ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE.

From the beginning, even before the bible and even to those that never even knew about the bible or the gospel, God made Himself evident to mankind. THIS is why mankind is without excuse at the judgment day.

Once a person PERCEIVES God, they can either accept Him or reject Him.
Those that accept Him have FAITH IN HIM.

On second thought, I apply this also to those living AFTER Jesus resurrection, the last 2,000 years.
A tribe living alone on an island somewhere on earth can still perceive the presence of God.
Each one of those that perceive can still accept or deny God.

Romans 2:7-15 ... I see nothing in here that says ones faith in something will cause one to be saved ... could you point it out? (Granted, I see a promise of salvation for those that do certain works ... but then you have to explain the many verses that say we are not saved by works.... if you are saying we are saved by works alone then you will have to explain verses like : Romans 3:28 For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Man is saved apart from THE LAW,,,but different topic.

Romans 2:7-15
God gave to each person a conscience.
There is no partiality with God.
All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law.
They show the work of the law written on their heart (conscience).
Almost all human beings know that murder is a sin...it's an innate knowledge of sin.

If you don't see this in Romans 2, there's not much more I can tell you.

Luke 12:48 .... there is nothing salvific in the verse. It's about rewards/punishment and not about what one must do to be saved that does not know of Christ. Aside: I try to avoid parables when explaining things as they can be twisted to mean so many things

God will give to each according to the light they've received.
God will not hold anyone responsible for something they did not know (Jesus).
Luke 12....to whom much is given, much will be required. (you).
To whom less is given, they will be judged on their knowledge, on the light they've received.

 

[GodsGrace]

Another proof text that one cannot be saved without knowledge of Christ (as always Age of Accountability is side issue)

Premise 1: Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so I now say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from that which you received [from us], let him be condemned to destruction!
Conclusion: There is only ONE gospel of salvation. Thus, billions of people who do not hear of Christ are condemned.

There IS NO GOSPEL in the situation I'm speaking about.
It's not ANOTHER GOSPEL....it is NO GOSPEL.

 

[GodsGrace]

YES, at least as far as what one is to believe to be saved.
Premise 1: Faith requires things to believed by definition.
Premise 2: Obviously, 3000 years ago no one believed the Messiah would die and be resurrected. In fact, no one knew anything about the human nature of Christ and probably the Trinity was a unknown concept
Premise 3: Faith is required by salvation
Conclusion: The last 2000 years the Bible is clear that knowledge of Christ is needed for salvation whereas such knowledge like death and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4) no one had more than 2000 years ago

Aside: I try to avoid salvation for those who lived more than 2000 years ago as it is not essential to us and the content of faith has changed.

What about someone living in China?
According to you, practically the whole world was lost until about a couple of hundred years ago.

Well, IMO gave a reasonable reason to interpret those verses another way and I could give a myriad of verses to support my contention. You did not respond to my contention that God gives billions of people no chance of salvation and therefore there is no logical reason to think He died for those people.
I know this argument. Your side has 6 verses (John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, John 6:51, 1 Timothy 2:4,6) to seem to validate your side. All the verses use 1 of 3 ambiguous words: ALL, WORLD, EVERYONE(which is a synonym for ALL). I can give ample verses to show that these words are ambiguous.

I'll concede that just to end the discussion.
The words ALL, WORLD, EVERYONE, must be understood in context.
Some understand them or change the meaning according to their beliefs instead of by the context.

There is no mention of salvation (how one gets to heaven) in Romans 1 and therefore your point is mute.

Fine.

You lost me.

Jesus spoke a lot about person's DEEDS.
We will be judged by our deeds, if they were good or bad.
But we must have faith first.

Agreed. Point 3 does not contain what the content of Noah's faith was. (Again, content of salvation in O.T. cloudy so best to go to N.T. where information is clearer. We have no idea what people of point 4 didn't believe that was needed for salvation) Deal with the N.T. where we have scripture to help us.

Are you saying Noah was not saved?
What is needed for salvation is FAITH...
I thought we agreed on that.

Premise 1:

Premise 2: Romans 3:11 no one seeks God
Conclusion: All of humanity goes to hell, but this contradicts scripture as we know some go to heaven. How does one solve the contradiction?
______________________________________-
Premise 1:

Premise 2: Romans 3:11 no one seeks God
Premise 3: There are two solutions to help a sinner that is lost. 1) He finds God; but was saw from the above logic that this is not possible ... 2) God finds the lost sinner
Conclusion: If God finds you, you can be saved. You can't find Him.

I must have listed at least 20 or more verses that state God wants to be sought,
and that we MUST seek Him,
and that we can find Him.

I'm not posting them again since it just falls on deaf ears.
You bring your theology to the bible,
You're supposed to GET your theology FROM the bible.

Gee ... I don't see the connection to our discussion. Also, I try to avoid getting doctrine out of parables.

Luke 16 is not a parable.
Check it out.
Hades is a real place, and was a real place.
Abraham's Bossom was a real place.

Aside: So many questions .. I am starting to lose track of what we are trying to solve... I think we are supposed to be talking about Romans 1 and whether or not there is a method for salvation from "general (natural) revelation" ... we need to stay on track IMO

Yes. Exactly.
There is NATURAL REVELATION,
God gives to each man the opportunity to be saved.
He is a just God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Everyone is saved by faith in God.

Phew, over one hurdle.

Once a person PERCEIVES God, they can either accept Him or reject Him.

Regarding Romans 1:19-20
You still did not point out where the verses say one is saved by accepting or rejecting God. You need clues like: "to be born again", or "to be put In Christ" or "in order to obtain eternal life"; phrases like this indicate the context has to do with salvation. Also, there is no definition of what "accepting or rejecting God" means. Show me in the verse what if means to "accept God". You agree everyone is saved by faith. What must one believe to be saved that you honed out of these verses?

Romans 2:7-15
God gave to each person a conscience.
There is no partiality with God.
All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law.
They show the work of the law written on their heart (conscience).
Almost all human beings know that murder is a sin...it's an innate knowledge of sin.

If you don't see this in Romans 2, there's not much more I can tell you.

I see these things and agree with you ... but they are irrelevant to the question at hand. "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?
Tell me from these verses where is says what one must believe to be saved? This is the crux of the discussion IMO. God being impartial and everyone having a conscience is true, but irrelevant. The verses are NOT relevant to "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?

God will not hold anyone responsible for something they did not know (Jesus).

Luke 12:48
The verse and context around it are about getting what we deserve. The verse doesn't say God does hold us responsible for something we did not know. But you are eluding the question at hand: "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"? Are you saying they don't have to do anything????

There IS NO GOSPEL in the situation I'm speaking about.
It's not ANOTHER GOSPEL....it is NO GOSPEL.

"What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?
"What must one do to be saved if there is NO GOSPEL"?

 

[GodsGrace]

Phew, over one hurdle.


Regarding Romans 1:19-20
You still did not point out where the verses say one is saved by accepting or rejecting God. You need clues like: "to be born again", or "to be put In Christ" or "in order to obtain eternal life"; phrases like this indicate the context has to do with salvation. Also, there is no definition of what "accepting or rejecting God" means. Show me in the verse what if means to "accept God". You agree everyone is saved by faith. What must one believe to be saved that you honed out of these verses?


I see these things and agree with you ... but they are irrelevant to the question at hand. "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?
Tell me from these verses where is says what one must believe to be saved? This is the crux of the discussion IMO. God being impartial and everyone having a conscience is true, but irrelevant. The verses are NOT relevant to "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?


Luke 12:48
The verse and context around it are about getting what we deserve. The verse doesn't say God does hold us responsible for something we did not know. But you are eluding the question at hand: "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"? Are you saying they don't have to do anything????



"What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?
"What must one do to be saved if there is NO GOSPEL"?

FF,
I said I'd end this here.
And so I am.
I can't repeat the same reasons over and over.
If you want to believe that ONLY those that have HEARD about Jesus and have ACCEPTED Him can go to heaven, then so be it.

I just want to remind you that Jesus is God,
and God has Jesus.

If one believes in Jesus, he believes in God.
If one believes in God, he believes in Jesus.

A just God will judge everyone to what they knew and what they deserve.
(I know we all deserve hell).

 

[GodsGrace]

Of the Holy Scriptures​

Chapter 1​

Paragraph 1​

The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience,1 although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet they are not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and His will which is necessary unto salvation.2 Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in diversified manners to reveal Himself, and to declare (that) His will unto His church;3 and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which makes the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now completed.4

---

1 2 Tim. 3:15–17; Is. 8:20; Luke 16:29,31; Eph. 2:20
2 Rom. 1:19-21, 2:14–15; Psalm 19:1-3
3 Heb. 1:1
4 Prov. 22:19-21; Rom. 15:4; 2 Pet. 1:19–20

Paragraph 2​

Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these:

[list omitted]

All of which are given by the inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life.5

---

5 2 Tim. 3:16

Paragraph 3​

The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon or rule of the Scripture, and, therefore, are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of than other human writings.6

---

6 Luke 24:27,44; Rom. 3:2

Interesting re the Apocrypha. Only my Italian bibles contain it, none of my English bibles.
But depending on what wishes to believe it goes like this:
THE PROTESTANTS:
The Apocrypha is not inspired and so it was removed from the Bible.

THE CATHOLICS:
In order for the reformation to support their beliefs, the Apocropha had to be removed from the OT because it supports doctrine they did not want to teach.

Paragraph 4​

The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, depends not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God.7

---

7 2 Pet. 1:19–21; 2 Tim. 3:16; 1 Thess. 2:13; 1 John 5:9

Can the bible be the word of God and God not be the author?
I was taught that God INSPIRED the bible,
NOT that He was the AUTHOR of the bible.
He didn't sit at a computer and write it...
man wrote it under the inspiration of God.

Paragraph 5​

We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to a high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.8

---

8 John 16:13-14; 1 Cor. 2:10-12; 1 John 2:20, 27

The bible is a miracle indeed.

Paragraph 6​

The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men.9 Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word,10 and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.11

---

9 2 Tim. 3:15-17; Gal. 1:8,9
10 John 6:45; 1 Cor. 2:9-12
11 1 Cor. 11:13,14; 1 Cor. 14:26,40

Paragraph 7​

All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all;12 yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them.13

---

12 2 Pet. 3:16
13 Ps. 19:7; Psalm 119:130

Paragraph 8​

The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old),14 and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them.15 But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read,16 and search them,17 therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come,18 that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.19

---

14 Rom. 3:2
15 Isa. 8:20
16 Acts 15:15
17 John 5:39
18 1 Cor. 14:6,9,11-12,24,28
19 Col. 3:16

Paragraph 9​

The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which are not many, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly.20

---

20 2 Pet. 1:20–21; Acts 15:15–16

I do come to wonder many times why we don't all believe the same...
Is it not ONE Holy Spirit?
This saddens me.

Paragraph 10​

The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved.21

---

21 Matt. 22:29, 31, 32; Eph. 2:20; Acts 28:23

 

[Fastfredy0]

What about someone living in China?
According to you, practically the whole world was lost until about a couple of hundred years ago.

I doesn't matter what I say. It's what scripture says.
Heck, I vote for universalism...but it's what scripture says.
According to scripture: "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?
If there's an answer we agree it is by faith so I can rephrase the question:
According to scripture: "What must one BELIEVE to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?

Jesus spoke a lot about person's DEEDS.
We will be judged by our deeds, if they were good or bad.
But we must have faith first.

Agreed... I would say DEEDS (works) are a result of faith (of trusting God) and we are rewarded.

Are you saying Noah was not saved?
What is needed for salvation is FAITH...
I thought we agreed on that.

Noah was saved by faith. What I was pointing that we don't know the content of His faith. For all I know God told Noah the God has blue toes and Noah believed Him and it was counted as righteousness.
Because the knowledge to the contents of faith of O.T. saints is difficult to ascertain I try to avoid it.

Aside: Gee.. you keep responding ...glad I took typing in high school to help keep up ...

I must have listed at least 20 or more verses that state God wants to be sought,
and that we MUST seek Him,
and that we can find Him.

True... and I pointed out that NO ONE SEEKS GOD ....so my solution is we can't seek Him ... God seeks us causing us to find Him. This explains the contradiction.
There's verse saying "we are to seek God" and verses saying "no one seeks God" ...I gave my explanation to unravel the contradiction; you are welcome to give an alternate explanation.

I'm not posting them again since it just falls on deaf ears.

Didn't fall on death ears. I responding with NO ONE SEEKS GOD, explained the contradiction and invited you to do so which you have not done.

You bring your theology to the bible,
You're supposed to GET your theology FROM the bible.

This sort of statement gets us no where
Same back at you. There, it's a tie.

Luke 16 is not a parable.
Check it out.
Hades is a real place, and was a real place.
Abraham's Bossom was a real place.

Hmmm .... you may be right .... goggled it ... "Luke 16:19-31 has been the focus of much controversy. Some take the story of the rich man and Lazarus to be a true, historical account of events that actually occurred; others consider it a parable or allegory."
...anyways

Yes. Exactly.
There is NATURAL REVELATION,
God gives to each man the opportunity to be saved.
He is a just God.

Phew ... at least we agree we are on topic. Romans 1 and whether it gives everyone the opportunity to be saved.
Again I ask you where the Romans 1 does it

1. mention salvation or any term associated with it like "eternal life', "born again", "regenerated", "in Christ", whatever?
2. what must people who never heard of Christ believe to be saved? (saying the must "accept God" needs clarity...how does one "accept God" has found in these verses for salvation?)

 

[GodsGrace]

I doesn't matter what I say. It's what scripture says.
Heck, I vote for universalism...but it's what scripture says.
According to scripture: "What must one do to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?
If there's an answer we agree it is by faith so I can rephrase the question:
According to scripture: "What must one BELIEVE to be saved if they have not heard of Christ"?

Agreed... I would say DEEDS (works) are a result of faith (of trusting God) and we are rewarded.



Noah was saved by faith. What I was pointing that we don't know the content of His faith. For all I know God told Noah the God has blue toes and Noah believed Him and it was counted as righteousness.
Because the knowledge to the contents of faith of O.T. saints is difficult to ascertain I try to avoid it.

Aside: Gee.. you keep responding ...glad I took typing in high school to help keep up ...




True... and I pointed out that NO ONE SEEKS GOD ....so my solution is we can't seek Him ... God seeks us causing us to find Him. This explains the contradiction.
There's verse saying "we are to seek God" and verses saying "no one seeks God" ...I gave my explanation to unravel the contradiction; you are welcome to give an alternate explanation.



Didn't fall on death ears. I responding with NO ONE SEEKS GOD, explained the contradiction and invited you to do so which you have not done.



This sort of statement gets us no where
Same back at you. There, it's a tie.



Hmmm .... you may be right .... goggled it ... "Luke 16:19-31 has been the focus of much controversy. Some take the story of the rich man and Lazarus to be a true, historical account of events that actually occurred; others consider it a parable or allegory."
...anyways


Phew ... at least we agree we are on topic. Romans 1 and whether it gives everyone the opportunity to be saved.
Again I ask you where the Romans 1 does it

1. mention salvation or any term associated with it like "eternal life', "born again", "regenerated", "in Christ", whatever?
2. what must people who never heard of Christ believe to be saved? (saying the must "accept God" needs clarity...how does one "accept God" has found in these verses for salvation?)

I feel like we're going around in circles and maybe I don't have anything to add.
I have to leave soon....
But, yes, I'd write to you if you always acted like you are now, instead of personally demeaning me.
You have Atpollard to thank for this thread.
I treat you how you treat me.
and I can't be too mean, so I end up just not posting to some persons.
anyway, will continue tomorrow but I don't think I'll have any new information.
I left my Ph.D at the bakery.

 

[atpollard]

Interesting re the Apocrypha.

What I found interesting about the Apocrypha is that Jerome, who translated the Catholic Bible into Latin creating the DEFINITIVE Bible for about 1500 years, had the EXACT SAME opinion of the Apocryphal books that later Protestants do … they contain SOME interesting information and have HISTORIC value as a research tool, but they are not inspired by God as the other books of the Bible are. I believe it was Jerome’s introduction to Kings that goes into some detail on this subject.