1689 London Confession

[Fastfredy0]

• Jesus underwent the punishment due to us?
• We should have born and suffered it?

oh oh, his pet peeve ... PSA

I also like the Cristus Victor Theory

atpollard has become your best friend for that response

*munches popcorn and observes the coming love fest*

 

[GodsGrace]

oh oh, his pet peeve ... PSA



atpollard has become your best friend for that response

*munches popcorn and observes the coming love fest*

What's your favorite atonement theory and why...

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith is a work. A work is a physical or mental exertion to accomplish a purpose. With faith the exertion is mental and the purpose is salvation. Now to the apparent contradiction of Roman 11:6 that my statement presents.
If faith is a work how can it be a gift? The answer is simple, the work of faith is done by the Spirit that causes one to believe salvificly (regeneration/born again). Since the Spirit does the work that causes us to believe it is thus a gift as man does nothing but exercise the faith/gift he has been given. This is confirmed in John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent”. THis verse speaks of belief being a work of God.

brightfame52 never comprehends this concept and always says this is works salvation on man's part.

He doesn't understand the logic.

Bright's logic
Premise 1: Faith is a requirement of salvation
Conclusion: Man saved by his works
.. everyone know premise 1 is true but he comes to a faulty conclusion

This is the fix to his logic
Premise 1: Faith is a requirement of salvation
Premise 2: Faith is the work of God (John 6:29)
Conclusion: Man NOT saved by his work of faith; rather, he is saved by God's work/gift of causing you to believe

Bright will not get this ...seen him over and over and over again wrongly accuse people of works salvation.

Of course.
Faith is required but it's a gift.
Eph 2,8 is clear and there are other verses for support.
God does the work not man.

But is it a work on God's part?
It's grace. Grace is love not work.
??

 

[GodsGrace]

oh oh, his pet peeve ... PSA



atpollard has become your best friend for that response

*munches popcorn and observes the coming love fest*

Actually, I find that every atonement theory has some truth in it.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith is a work. A work is a physical or mental exertion to accomplish a purpose. With faith the exertion is mental and the purpose is salvation. Now to the apparent contradiction of Roman 11:6 that my statement presents.
If faith is a work how can it be a gift? The answer is simple, the work of faith is done by the Spirit that causes one to believe salvificly (regeneration/born again). Since the Spirit does the work that causes us to believe it is thus a gift as man does nothing but exercise the faith/gift he has been given. This is confirmed in John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent”. THis verse speaks of belief being a work of God.

brightfame52 never comprehends this concept and always says this is works salvation on man's part.

He doesn't understand the logic.

Bright's logic
Premise 1: Faith is a requirement of salvation
Conclusion: Man saved by his works
.. everyone know premise 1 is true but he comes to a faulty conclusion

This is the fix to his logic
Premise 1: Faith is a requirement of salvation
Premise 2: Faith is the work of God (John 6:29)
Conclusion: Man NOT saved by his work of faith; rather, he is saved by God's work/gift of causing you to believe

Bright will not get this ...seen him over and over and over again wrongly accuse people of works salvation.

No matter how you spin it friend, if you make faith, something you do as you have admitted, a condition you meet, even if its by the power and grace of the Spirit, then you advocate salvation by works, even if its a work of righteousness, which Titus forbids Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Any requirement you meet to get saved, defaults into salvation by works !

 

[GodsGrace]

No matter how you spin it friend, if you make faith, something you do as you have admitted, a condition you meet, even if its by the power and grace of the Spirit, then you advocate salvation by works, even if its a work of righteousness, which Titus forbids Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Any requirement you meet to get saved, defaults into salvation by works !

You're not repeating what Fastfredy0 said.
I think you're very brainwashed or you're not listening.

You have 3 persons telling you that there's something incorrect in your understanding of faith. 2 are reformed like you. I'd listen.
Give it some serious thought.

But I know you won't.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What's your favorite atonement theory and why...

Hey, I don't want to tick off my bud atpollard
He may forgive me given my trivial reasons:
1) It's is only one I headr of for decades
2) Atonement theory is not a 'important' to me so I pick it if someone asks
3) Since their called theories I can't get too excited about something classified as 'various possibles' and the idea that none of them is correct

Aside: I read the Cristus Victor Theory and I don't have an issue with it either

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey, I don't want to tick off my bud atpollard
He may forgive me given my trivial reasons:
1) It's is only one I headr of for decades
2) Atonement theory is not a 'important' to me so I pick it if someone asks
3) Since their called theories I can't get too excited about something classified as 'various possibles' and the idea that none of them is correct

Aside: I read the Cristus Victor Theory and I don't have an issue with it either

FF
You're an intelligent guy....

Find out what THEORY means!
Like in science, for instance.

Check out my new thread in THEOLOGY...

Why did Jesus have to be sacrificed...

 

[Fastfredy0]

But is it a work on God's part?
It's grace. Grace is love not work.

Grace can be a work.... I'll go further and say Grace is always a work
Grace is something one does to accomplish a purpose
Something one does to accomplish a purpose is the definition of work
Love is work. Love is something one does to accomplish a purpose which is the definition of work. Love is showing favor to a person. You cannot love a person and not favor a person. To favor a person is to do things that are advantageous to a person which is work.
So, if God causes you to believe that is work (something He does to accomplish a purpose); and work that favors a person is love (an act of favoring).
Grace is unmerited favor/love.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No matter how you spin it friend, if you make faith, something you do as you have admitted, a condition you meet, even if its by the power and grace of the Spirit, then you advocate salvation by works

Premise 1: Bright believes in God which is something he does, a condition he meets
Premise 2: one must believe in God to be saved (a condition for salvation)
Conclusion: Bright actions show he advocates salvation by works (even though he denies it, but logic shows he is not being rational)

Aside: one can unravel this so the salvation is not by works ... but I am using Bright's definitions of Works Salvation

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done,

Agreed ... but your logic is flawed ... you don't acknowledge who is doing the work. You're confused. You even think strong reformed guys like atpollard and myself believe in Works Salvation because you don't understand the nuances IMO.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Find out what THEORY means!
Like in science, for instance.

I have a degree in science. I know what THEORY means. (Gee, I finally get to use my degree for something ... giggle)
Theory - a rational type of abstract thinking about a phenomenon, or the results of such thinking. The process of contemplative and rational thinking is often associated with such processes as observational study or research.

Because the reason of Atonement is classified as a theory I know it is just various people's opinion and that does not motivate me to get to deeply into it. I read some of the opinions and it seems they have minor flaws and some supporting evidence.

Why did Jesus have to be sacrificed...

My guess is we don't know if one goes more deeply into subject. At a high level Jesus, the son of man, died because he was obedient to the Father and the Son of Man in Jesus was a strong motivator. Get deeper and deeper and you will find a point where you are guessing.

 

[atpollard]

Chapter 8, Paragraph 6
Although the price of redemption was not actually paid by Christ until after His incarnation, yet the virtue, efficacy, and benefit thereof were communicated to the elect in all ages, successively from the beginning of the world, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifices wherein He was revealed, and signified to be the seed which should bruise the serpent's head;34 and the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,35 being the same yesterday, and today and for ever.36

Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

So we KNOW scripture says it, so it must be true, ... but does anyone besides me ever think "How can that be TRUE?"

• John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
• Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
• Luke 2:4-7 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David: ) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
• John 19:28-30 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
• Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
• Revelation 4:2-5 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne. And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Jesus was/is completely unchanged throughout it all???

 

[Fastfredy0]

Jesus was/is completely unchanged throughout it all???

Jesus the Son of God is eternal and immutable.
Jesus the son of man is created and mutable.

 

[atpollard]

I also like the Cristus Victor Theory, Jesus as our example.

Why do YOU have a problem with this?

It is less that I "have a problem" with it and more "people see what isn't there". I was taught PSA and it makes perfect sense. God has every reason to be angry at sin and it would certainly explain WHY Jesus' death was so BRUTAL (none of the OT sacrifices involve torturing the Lamb or Bull before killing it). The problem came when someone challenged me to show them where SCRIPTURE says that God punished Jesus with the punishment that He should have given to US.

ME being ME, immediately set out to do just that. What I found in SCRIPTURE was a very different picture of how and why God forgives. PSA rests on the FACTS that Jesus suffered and sin was PROPITIATED and then ASSUMES that it was to PAY GOD'S JUSTICE a punishment that was demanded from US.

Ezekiel 18: [NLT]

1 Then another message came to me from the LORD: 2 “Why do you quote this proverb concerning the land of Israel: ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children’s mouths pucker at the taste’? 3 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, you will not quote this proverb anymore in Israel. 4 For all people are mine to judge—both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die.​

​

5 “Suppose a certain man is righteous and does what is just and right. 6 He does not feast in the mountains before Israel’s idols or worship them. He does not commit adultery or have intercourse with a woman during her menstrual period. 7 He is a merciful creditor, not keeping the items given as security by poor debtors. He does not rob the poor but instead gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. 8 He grants loans without interest, stays away from injustice, is honest and fair when judging others, 9 and faithfully obeys my decrees and regulations. Anyone who does these things is just and will surely live, says the Sovereign LORD.​

​

10 “But suppose that man has a son who grows up to be a robber or murderer and refuses to do what is right. 11 And that son does all the evil things his father would never do—he worships idols on the mountains, commits adultery, 12 oppresses the poor and helpless, steals from debtors by refusing to let them redeem their security, worships idols, commits detestable sins, 13 and lends money at excessive interest. Should such a sinful person live? No! He must die and must take full blame.​

​

14 “But suppose that sinful son, in turn, has a son who sees his father’s wickedness and decides against that kind of life. 15 This son refuses to worship idols on the mountains and does not commit adultery. 16 He does not exploit the poor, but instead is fair to debtors and does not rob them. He gives food to the hungry and provides clothes for the needy. 17 He helps the poor, does not lend money at interest, and obeys all my regulations and decrees. Such a person will not die because of his father’s sins; he will surely live. 18 But the father will die for his many sins—for being cruel, robbing people, and doing what was clearly wrong among his people.​

​

19 “‘What?’ you ask. ‘Doesn’t the child pay for the parent’s sins?’ No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done.​

​

23 “Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live. 24 However, if righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things and act like other sinners, should they be allowed to live? No, of course not! All their righteous acts will be forgotten, and they will die for their sins.​

​

25 “Yet you say, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right!’ Listen to me, O people of Israel. Am I the one not doing what’s right, or is it you? 26 When righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things, they will die for it. Yes, they will die because of their sinful deeds. 27 And if wicked people turn from their wickedness, obey the law, and do what is just and right, they will save their lives. 28 They will live because they thought it over and decided to turn from their sins. Such people will not die. 29 And yet the people of Israel keep saying, ‘The Lord isn’t doing what’s right!’ O people of Israel, it is you who are not doing what’s right, not I.​

​

30 “Therefore, I will judge each of you, O people of Israel, according to your actions, says the Sovereign LORD. Repent, and turn from your sins. Don’t let them destroy you! 31 Put all your rebellion behind you, and find yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O people of Israel? 32 I don’t want you to die, says the Sovereign LORD. Turn back and live!​

What If:​

God forgives because it is in his nature to forgive, and God stores wrath until the "day of wrath" because it is in His nature to store wrath until the final judgement. Then Christ DIED as a sin offering, and Christ SUFFERED to remove the dark heart of stone within us ... Christ the REDEEMER ... Christ VICTORIOUS ... Christ who suffered at the hands of evil men in a fallen world just as we do (the HIGH PRIEST that UNDERSTANDS)!

God who cannot forgive until he "gets his pound of flesh" is an invention of man rather than the words of Scripture. That is my "problem" with PSA ... it isn't what Scripture actually says!

 

[atpollard]

Jesus the Son of God is eternal and immutable.
Jesus the son of man is created and mutable.

Careful there ... I think the Gnostics got in trouble for saying that.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God has every reason to be angry

Can a perfect God be angry? (strong feeling of displeasure or hostility). Can man be the cause of anything in God?

Careful there ... I think the Gnostics got in trouble for saying that.

Every time someone brings up the term Gnosticism I have to look it up. One day I hope to remember what it is.

 

[brightfame52]

Premise 1: Bright believes in God which is something he does, a condition he meets
Premise 2: one must believe in God to be saved (a condition for salvation)
Conclusion: Bright actions show he advocates salvation by works (even though he denies it, but logic shows he is not being rational)

Aside: one can unravel this so the salvation is not by works ... but I am using Bright's definitions of Works Salvation




Agreed ... but your logic is flawed ... you don't acknowledge who is doing the work. You're confused. You even think strong reformed guys like atpollard and myself believe in Works Salvation because you don't understand the nuances IMO.

I havent met any conditions to get saved, please dont misrepresent me like that. Have I stated anywhere I met some conditions ?

Again, if you believe you met any conditions to get saved, you believe in works salvation, in fact you are the principle of law keeping salvation.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I havent met any conditions to get saved, please dont misrepresent me like that. Have I stated anywhere I met some conditions ?

You always deal in generalities. Deal with the specifics I wrote.

Do you believe God exists?
Do you believe one must believe God exists to be saved?

Answer the questions.
Aside: I apologize if I misrepresented you. Personally, I think you misrepresent yourself. I know you misrepresent me and atpollard when you say we believe in salvation partially by our works

Again, if you believe you met any conditions to get saved, you believe in works salvation

... and again, by your definition you yourself IMO believe in "works salvation" because you believe you must believe in God to be saved....you've met that condition and therefore are saved by works by your definition.

Answer the questions:
Do you believe God exists?
Do you believe one must believe God exists to be saved?

My guess is you will dodge the questions again.

Aside: You're the Calvinism overseer and don't know what "works salvation is". Study Cause and Effect ... Study FIRST CAUSE and SECOND CAUSES

 

[atpollard]

Can a perfect God be angry? (strong feeling of displeasure or hostility). Can man be the cause of anything in God?

Irrespective of CAN ... we have provided sufficient justification.

If I spit on you and you choose not to get upset, that does not change the fact that my action provided justification for you to get upset.

Besides, God DOES have a "settled opposition" to sin and "He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (aka. "So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.") ... so it sounds like maybe God CAN get pissed.

 

[Fastfredy0]

If I spit on you and you choose not to get upset, that does not change the fact that my action provided justification for you to get upset.

Agreed in most cases
If I cause you to spit on me, does that give justification for me to get upset?

If God gives Joe and sin nature and Joe kills Sam, should God be upset?

Besides, God DOES have a "settled opposition" to sin and "He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" (aka. "So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.") ... so it sounds like maybe God CAN get pissed.

Short Answer: God never gets pissed ... (LOL @ pissed)

Long Answer I read once that was interesting ...
The view that God experiences emotions like men appear to entail a number of contradictions: A man may become angry against his will in the sense that he does not choose to become angry, and he does not choose to experience whatever causes the anger, but that the "trigger" incites this emotion in him against his preference. This applies to human experiences of joy, fear, grief, and so on. However, this cannot be true with God even if he were to experience emotions, because such lack of self-control contradicts his omniscience, sovereignty (He controls all events), and immutability (He is not merry one moment and sad another for God is eternal; He has no succession of moments).

Since God is omniscient, he cannot be surprised, and this at least eliminates certain ways of experiencing emotions.

Perhaps the reply is that all facts are simultaneously present to God, so that the insult that angers him is always happening "now" [God has no succession of moments]. But this would imply that God must be angry about this one insult throughout eternity, and not just when it happens. If so, then God's emotions would not offer us the kind of interactivity that proponents of divine emotions are after. In any case, suppose something happens that alleviates this anger. Of course, the only way is forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But since God knows Christ's sacrifice just as well as the man's insult, we are at a loss as to whether he is ever angry or not. The mental experiment results in absurdity, because the truth is that God is not like man, because he is not a man. Isaiah 58:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.

Then, if an action of mine can cause anger in God in a similar way that I can cause anger in a man, then this means that I can cause anger in God by my power. To the degree that he lacks self-control, he is helpless against my efforts to cause anger in him. Likewise, if an action of mine can produce joy in God in a similar way that I can produce joy in a man, then this means that I have the ability to produce joy in God at will. In this manner, I would exercise a significant measure of control over God. But this contradicts his sovereignty [independence] and immutability. (Job 35:7-8a; Job 22:2-3; Romans 11:34-35; Isaiah 40:13; Acts 17:25, see Aseity (independence) of God)

The matter becomes much more complex when we take into account that he knows all the thoughts and actions of his creatures in all of history simultaneously. But it is enough to consider all the billions of people who anger him at any point in time, and the thousands or at least hundreds of people who please him at the same time. How is it possible for him to be angry with two billion people in a sense like man's anger and pleased with two hundred people, also in the human sense, at the same time? If the answer is that God's mind is immense, so that he is not subject to human limitations, then our point is also established. Vincent Cheung

Aside: It's difficult to think as God thinks... we're at a distinct disadvantage (giggle)