1689 London Confession

[brightfame52]

You always deal in generalities. Deal with the specifics I wrote.

Do you believe God exists?
Do you believe one must believe God exists to be saved?

Answer the questions.
Aside: I apologize if I misrepresented you. Personally, I think you misrepresent yourself. I know you misrepresent me and atpollard when you say we believe in salvation partially by our works



... and again, by your definition you yourself IMO believe in "works salvation" because you believe you must believe in God to be saved....you've met that condition and therefore are saved by works by your definition.

Answer the questions:
Do you believe God exists?
Do you believe one must believe God exists to be saved?

My guess is you will dodge the questions again.

Aside: You're the Calvinism overseer and don't know what "works salvation is". Study Cause and Effect ... Study FIRST CAUSE and SECOND CAUSES

Your questions are silly to me, I haven't met any conditions to be saved. If a person meets any condition, requirement to get saved, its works. Justification before God is strictly by Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Rom 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

That word freely is very instructive in this matter of grace Justification, its the greek word dōrean:
undeservedly, freely, for naught, gratis, gratuitously
Its the word without cause here for Christ Jn 15:25
But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

So there wasn't anything in or about Christ that merited their hate,

So likewise, there isn't nothing in or about the Justified by grace sinner that merited or caused their Justification, not even faith. If faith is a requirement then kiss grace good by, for grace and works, qualifications, requirements are mutually exclusive of each other Rom 11:6

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Your questions are silly to me, I haven't met any conditions to be saved.

My questions are to show you that your definition of Work Salvation is not rational.
You met a condition to be saved. I stated the concept as simply as possible.
You believe that you must believe God exists to be saved. You believe you have met that condition for salvation. Since you believe you did something to be saved you believe by your definition of WORKS SALVATION that you saved yourself.

If faith is a requirement then kiss grace good by

This is your logic
Premise 1: Grace does not include faith (Bright's premise)
Premise 2: Faith is required for salvation (John 3:16)
Conclusion: One can't be saved by Grace (which contradicts Eph. 2:8-9 and others)

You're arguments are not rational. Your concept of what constitutes work salvation is WRONG.

We (several strong Reform guys and even wondering who is not Reformed) explained it.

 

[brightfame52]

fastfreddy

Do you believe God exists?
Do you believe one must believe God exists to be saved?

Yes however those arent conditions I met to get God to save me.

For one to believe in the True God and His existence is the Gift of God, for man by nature is an idolator.

Its by Christ that a person believes in the True God Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 Pet 1:20-21

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Thats why I said your questions are silly, unlearned.

 

[atpollard]

If I cause you to spit on me, does that give justification for me to get upset?

Is God the author of sin?

James 1:12-15 [NLT]

God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.​

 

[Fastfredy0]

Do you believe God exists?
Do you believe one must believe God exists to be saved?
Your answer:

Yes however those arent conditions I met to get God to save me.

A condition is: a premise upon which the fulfillment of an agreement depends

Therefore, you believe you were saved by believing God exists (other beliefs are necessary, but trying to keep this simple) and by definition that is a condition of your salvation. Since you define WORKS SALVATION as a person meeting conditions to be saved the rational conclusion is that you believe you were saved, in part, by your works.
Now, you're not being rational so even though logic show you believe in Works Salvation, you yet say you don't.

Again, the solution to this is simple.
Premise 1: Believing God exists is a condition of salvation
Premise 2: Believing God exists is a work (something done to achieve a purpose)
Premise 3: God caused you to believe He exists; He did the work
Conclusion: this a not Works Salvation because God is doing all the work; man does nothing except respond according to God's work.

Thats why I said your questions are silly, unlearned.

I have to keep it simple to point out your semantic folly. I know you don't believe in Works Salvation but you don't define it correctly and cause confusion and make false accusations that others believe in Works Salvation who do not do so.

...anyways, I'll leave it there

 

[atpollard]

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (traditional)
1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (modern English)

Of Free Will​

Chapter 9​

​

Paragraph 1​

God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.1

1 Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19

---

​

Paragraph 2​

Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God,2 but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.3

2 Eccles. 7:29
3 Gen. 3:6

---

​

Paragraph 3​

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;4 so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin,5 is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.6

4 Rom. 5:6, Rom. 8:7
5 Eph. 2:1, Eph. 2:5
6 Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44

---

​

Paragraph 4​

When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin,7 and by His grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;8 yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he does not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.9

7 Col. 1:13; John 8:36
8 Phil. 2:13
9 Rom. 7:15, Rom. 7:18-19, Rom. 7:21, Rom. 7:23

---

​

Paragraph 5​

This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only.10

10 Eph. 4:13

 

[Fastfredy0]

Is God the author of sin?

*giggle* ...we've had this discussion ... I'll go private to continue it if you like. People here aren't ready for a frank discussion on theodicies.

James 1:12-15 [NLT]
God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

James is a difficult book to understand, even for Luther unless you consider the context ... but putting that aside ....

Premise 1: Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Premise 2:

God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else.

Conclusion: Either contradiction or further investigation to explain it. You can go first.... lol

 

[atpollard]

Of Free Will​

Now the gloves come off and the disagreement can begin.

 

[atpollard]

You can go first.... lol

So tell me ... how long have you considered yourself interchangeable with Jesus?
(OK, let's leave that question in the Private Conversation.)

 

[Fastfredy0]

God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil

Natural Liberty needs a definition. Is that Free Will? Is that Augustine's definition of Free Will: the ability to choose what you desire most at the time?

Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God,2 but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.

Freedom to will? God knows all things. He knew when He created Adam that Adam would fall. Adam was not free to do other than was predestined by God. If God wanted an Adam that would do X rather than Y He (the Potter) could have done so with the clay (Adam 2).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Now the gloves come off and the disagreement can begin.

Hey, I want a handicap. You're younger and smarter than I so ... every 4 point I should be given an auto correct award as we keep score.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So tell me ... how long have you considered yourself interchangeable with Jesus?

... not sure what "interchangeable with Jesus" means .... best I might hope for is to be His court jester/ village idiot one day.

 

[atpollard]

Adam was not free to do other than was predestined by God.

How do we know that was not a moot issue?

What if Adam could do whatever Adam wanted to do, and Adam did what Adam wanted to do, and what Adam did is also what God predestined for Adam to do. Then the fact that Adam did not do, what Adam did not desire to do and God did not predestine for Adam to do is as irrelevant as whether or not Adam COULD have done what Adam, God and Predestination all NEVER WANTED to do.

We are assuming that the plan of God creates incompatibility issues with the will of the "clay", but that is not a "given" which has actually been established as "fact". This is the position of the Baptist Confession:

Chapter 3, Paragraph 1:

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.​

 

[Fastfredy0]

What if Adam could do whatever Adam wanted to do, and Adam did what Adam wanted to do, and what Adam did is also what God predestined for Adam to do.

I believe Adam did whatever Adam wanted to do. The ultimate question is: who controlled Adam's desires? Adam didn't control Adam's desires; that circular logic. Since Adam can't determine his desires the rest of the logic cannot proceed ....and was over my head .

We are assuming that the plan of God creates incompatibility issues with the will of the "clay"

My point is Clay has no incompatibility issues regarding will. Clay's will is that of the Potter. Psalm 33:10; Psalm 139:16; Proverbs 19:21

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

Well, thats-a-one bigga matzah-ball.

Wish you were on the other forum. I need a sympathy vote or an "attaboy"... giggle

 

[GodsGrace]

*giggle* ...we've had this discussion ... I'll go private to continue it if you like. People here aren't ready for a frank discussion on theodicies.


James is a difficult book to understand, even for Luther unless you consider the context ... but putting that aside ....

Premise 1: Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Premise 2:

Conclusion: Either contradiction or further investigation to explain it. You can go first.... lol

Theodicy.

The biggest problem Christianity has.
If God is all powerful and all good, how could evil exist?

The Reformed have solved this problem by teaching that God created EVERYTHING, including evil.

But that is also a doctrine full of problems.

And some don't believe in evil per se, as a noun.
But they believe it's the deprivation of good.
RC Sproul taught this.

I have no answer to offer.

 

[atpollard]

Wish you were on the other forum. I need a sympathy vote or an "attaboy"... giggle

They banned me for not being Reformed enough, so it ain't gonna happen.
[God has sovereignly decreed it so.]

 

[atpollard]

who controlled Adam's desires?

Adam.

Like the cartoon with an angel sitting on one shoulder and a devil sitting on another, GOD told Adam one thing, Satan (the talking snake) told Adam the opposite. Adam trusted his EYES rather than his SOUL (a condition not unfamiliar to we who followed in his footsteps) and chose. If Adam was a teenage Boy, two ounces or hormones may have been involved in swaying his decision ... which was probably part of Satan's strategy in going through the woman to get Adam, as Satan went through Adam to really hurt God.

WE are a flesh that desires one thing and a spirit that innately senses a need for what has been lost (that is why we make idols) and a mind that is ours (corrupted at present, but capable of being renewed). That which makes us ... US ... contains an eternal spark [Imageo Dei] that is both OURS and is US. It doesn't TRUMP God's Will, but it is OUR Will. It is the Secondary Causes that God uses and we can't explain how. It is the Paradox that God controls everything and we choose to sin.

It is GOD DRAWS meets WHOSOEVER BELIEVES and both remain true. A paradox and a mystery and a Biblical Truth.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The biggest problem Christianity has.
If God is all powerful and all good, how could evil exist?

Maybe the issue is that Man think he can define good when it is God that does so. There is only one being with value and that is God. All things revolve around the superior. We have no value save that of participating in what God values, Himself... the only object of intrinsic worth.
Man thinks too much of Himself.

The Reformed have solved this problem by teaching that God created EVERYTHING, including evil.

I know you believe this. It's an inaccurate extrapolation though understandable error. Augustine, whom reformed people tend to follow showed that evil is not a thing and thus is not created. Evil is the lack of a thing. Like darkness is not a thing but the lack of light. God doesn't create darkness; darkness is the absence of light.....as cold also doesn't exist but is the absence of heat...(thus absolute zero). If evil was a thing then the bible would have a contradiction as it portrays God as creating ALL things and it was good.

And some don't believe in evil per se, as a noun.
But they believe it's the deprivation of good.
RC Sproul taught this.

Ah, you've heard the explanation. I gave helpful example with Light and Heat. It's a concept that doesn't come naturally. But, without a person or demon I challenge you to show EVIL found anywhere... I am sure you can't and thus supports my contention (which I got from Augustine).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: who controlled Adam's desires?

Adam.

Like the cartoon with an angel sitting on one shoulder and a devil sitting on another, GOD told Adam one thing, Satan (the talking snake) told Adam the opposite. Adam trusted his EYES rather than his SOUL (a condition not unfamiliar to we who followed in his footsteps) and chose. WE are a flesh that desires one thing and a spirit that innately senses a need for what has been lost (that is why we make idols) and a mind that is ours (corrupted at present, but capable of being renewed). That which makes us ... US ... contains an eternal spark [Imageo Dei] that is both OURS and is US. It doesn't TRUMP God's Will, but it is OUR Will. It is the Secondary Causes that God uses and we can't explain how.

Self-determinism, as proposed by you and freewill, means one makes choices independent of God and any other influence. This is logically impossible; it is a circular answer. If there is not a determining cause for the thought process, making a choice would be impossible. To be self-determined, one must be eternal and therefore uncaused. The determinative cause cannot be self-determined, without influence of past experience, state of mind or knowledge. Freewill and your postulate contradicts this; you say you can reach up into the eternal realm and grab self-determination (uninfluenced); but this is not possible.
When one who supports the idea of Freewill or self-determinism is asked “why you did something he has no answer”. He will resort to a non-answer like “because I wanted to”. When asked why he wanted to he responses “because I choice to want to”; when asked why he choice to want to, he responses “because I wanted to choice to want to” … and on and on the circular reason goes. It contradicts the Law of Causality. Author Unknown ...some of it was me

It is the Paradox that God controls everything and we choose to sin.

More like a contradiction.
God knows everythingh
At one time we were nothing
God cannot attain knowledge from nothing. Only nothing come from nothing or it can't be nothing; rather it would be something
Conclusion: You choose and God controls what you choose. No paradox, no contradiction, no mystery. The only issue is man's insistence upon the attributes of God being inline with man's perception of God. .... sorry God, you can be that way as it contradicts my concept of You.

It is GOD DRAWS meets WHOSOEVER BELIEVES and both remain true. A paradox and a mystery and a Biblical Truth.

It is God Draws the elect/chosen/predestined/appointed/foreknow/whatever that causes them to believe and the result of God causing one to believe results in salvation for those chosen before they existed; when they were nothing; when all knowledge logically must be sourced from God.

 

[atpollard]

Why did you choose the pair of socks you chose and not the other pair?
What was the REASON that controlled your choice which God placed into your mind?