2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[th1b.taylor]

Completely 180 degrees backwards.

We have hope in His promise.

The reason we have hope is because of His promise.

If we had what was promised then it wouldn't be a "promise" of something to come.

We who have faith, have the hope of eternal life, because we believe.

• Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

• For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

• And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

Do you believe and teach that born again Christians who live unrighteously, will go into eternal life on the Day of Judgement?



JLB

AMEN! Great work there, brother.

 

[JLB]

Seems there is a huge contradiction in your view.

No contradiction, just truth.




There are simply two choices we have as believers:

1. Live our lives according to the sinful desires of the flesh, and reap death. Obey unrighteousness.
2. Live our lives according to the Spirit, sow to the Spirit, obey the righteous leadings of the Spirit within. Obey Righteousness.

• if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14

One choice leads to eternal life, the other way leads to partaking of the wrath of God; eternal death.

• Paul said it this way, in his letter to the Romans:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm always happy to teach what the Bible very clearly says.

This, from Jesus Himself: "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish". John 10:28

Please notice that the single criterion for not perishing (go to hell) is based on receiving eternal life.

If this gift of eternal life was given at the end of one's life (like a reward earned, as seems your view is), then what He said makes no sense.

Of course one will never perish if one is given eternal life at the end of their physical life.

But Jesus also taught that those who believe HAVE eternal life (Jn 5:24). That means NOW, when they believe. So we know that one receives eternal life WHEN they first believe.

And Jesus gave no other criterion for never perishing. Just receiving eternal life.

But the OSNAS view does not agree with what Jesus said.

Paul teaches the Church at Ephesus, born again, Spirit filled Christians not to partake of the wrath of God, along with the sons of disobedience.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

• And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46
• Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.1 Corinthians 6:9

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:3-10

• Do you believe and teach that born again Christians who live unrighteously, will go into eternal life on the Day of Judgement?

Yes or No ?


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

It is futile to keep up this game of badminton.

I agree.

 

[gr8grace3]

FreeGrace

Question: Can a believer do anything he wants, I mean anything, and still be sealed with the Holy Spirit - once they are sealed?

Isn't that obvious? Yes.

Just look at these forums. Day in, day out there are people virtually giving it their best effort to unseal another believer.......to no avail though.

 

[Nathan]

Isn't that obvious? Yes.

Just look at these forums. Day in, day out there are people virtually giving it their best effort to unseal another believer.......to no avail though.

Is this a tounge in cheek thing? I mean, do you believe that believers can do anything they want and still be sealed?

 

[gr8grace3]

Completely 180 degrees backwards.

We have hope in His promise.

Biblical hope is a certainty. We don't "hope"(as with our fingers crossed) in His promises. We STAND on His promises. We stand on His word. We take Him at His word.

1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

We who have faith, have the hope of eternal life, because we believe.

Biblical hope is certainty. If we have believed, we are certain of eternal life.

Do you believe and teach that born again Christians who live unrighteously, will go into eternal life on the Day of Judgement?

Living unrighteously also pertains to living in my own good apart from God. So I most certainly do. All Believers are going to enter the Kingdom. The Lord Jesus is responsible for salvation, He doesn't go back on His promise. John 10:28

But not all believers are going to inherit the Kingdom. They chose to live an unrighteous life. And the majority of believers live unrighteous lives..........because they are relying on their OWN righteousness.

But this goes for us if we want to live in sin or our evil(human good) after we are saved.

Matt 5:19~~New American Standard Bible
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.





JLB[/QUOTE]

 

[gr8grace3]

Is this a tounge in cheek thing? I mean, do you believe that believers can do anything they want and still be sealed?

Yes, I believe it. One of the most evil and wicked things we can do is teach a believer that they are not 100% secure in Christ. If we could lose salvation, this teaching would be it................but it ain't going to happen. We are forever sealed by God.

 

[OzSpen]

I see. You have to look at the full definition in order to grasp it. #646 is the same word as #647, except #646 is the feminine of #647 which is a neuter noun. #647 is the word used for "divorce" in the Bible.

I am not a greek expert, but the way it reads, #647 is the 'bill' of divorce, and #646 is the actual leaving or action that the divorce entails.

Nathan,

If we want to know the meaning of a word in the Greek NT, we do not go to an Interlinear for an explanation. An Interlinear gives a basic word for a translation. It doesn't give an explanation of the meaning of the Greek word. So where do we go for explanations? To Greek Lexicons and Greek Word Studies. The two best known Word Studies are Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel & Friedrich eds) and The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Colin Brown ed.). The first is 10 vols, the second is briefer (3 vols). The leading Greek lexicon is that by Arndt & Gingrich. An older one is by Thayer.

Note what Mark 10:4 states in these various translations (see below). They ALL use the word 'divorce'. Why? Because that is what apostasion means. Let's check Arndt & Gingrich's Greek Lexion. It gives this meaning: 'In the sense of relinquishment of property after sale, abandonment, etc. The consequent giving up of one's own claim explains the meaning which the word acquires in Jewish circles' (Jer 3:8). 'Give (one's wife) a certificate of divorce' (Mt 19:7; Mk 10:4) (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:97).

Colin Brown's study of apostasion is: 'In the NT apolyw [verbal form] has its classical Gk. meanings: to release a prisoner (Mk. 15:6-15; cf. Matt. 18:27 of a debtor); set free from disease (Lk. 13:12); acquit (Lk. 6:37); send people away (Mk. 6:36, 45; 8:3, 9); dismiss from duties of life, allow to die (Lk. 2:29); cf. dismissal from military service ... 66f.); Gen 15: 2; Num. 20:29.... It is especially used of divorcing a wife (Matt. 1:19; 5:31f; 19:2, 7-9; Mk 10:2, 4, 11f.; Lk. 16:18. apostasion means divorce (Matt 5:31; 19:7; Mk. 10:4) (Colin Brown 1975:1.505-506).

New International Version
They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."

New Living Translation
"Well, he permitted it," they replied. "He said a man can give his wife a written notice of divorce and send her away."

English Standard Version
They said, “Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to send her away.”

New American Standard Bible
They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY."

King James Bible
And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
They said, "Moses permitted us to write divorce papers and send her away."

International Standard Version
They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to divorce her."

I urge you never to depend on an Interlinear to gain the meaning of a Greek word or phrase - particularly when you don't know NT Greek. A Greek-based commentary also will give some further insight, as does C. E. B. Cranfield (1959:319).

Sincerely,
Oz

Works consulted
Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

Brown, C 1975. apostasion, in C Brown (ed) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, vol 1, 505-506. Exeter: The Paternoster Press.

Cranfield, C. E. B. 1959, The Gospel According to Saint Mark, London: Cambridge University Press.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, I believe it. One of the most evil and wicked things we can do is teach a believer that they are not 100% secure in Christ. If we could lose salvation, this teaching would be it................but it ain't going to happen. We are forever sealed by God.

gr8,

It happened for some in the Hebrews' audience, according to Heb 6:4-6 (ESV). It also happened to Hymenaeus and Alexander who 'made shipwreck of their faith' (1 Tim 1:18-19 ESV).

One of the most truthful things we can teach all believers is that they can commit apostasy (fall away from the faith). Jesus' word on this was, 'The one who endures to the end will be saved', Matt 24:13 (NLT).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Isn't that obvious? Yes.

Just look at these forums. Day in, day out there are people virtually giving it their best effort to unseal another believer.......to no avail though.

gr8,

This is your response to Nathan's question: 'Can a believer do anything he wants, I mean anything, and still be sealed with the Holy Spirit - once they are sealed?'

Scripture clearly refutes that: 'No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God', 1 John 3:9 (NIV).

You said 'Yes' to any believer after being 'sealed' for salvation living the way he/she likes. Go off and live like the devil in sin and degradation and he/she is still a Christian and sealed? Is that what you believe and teach?

Oz

 

[gr8grace3]

gr8,

This is your response to Nathan's question: 'Can a believer do anything he wants, I mean anything, and still be sealed with the Holy Spirit - once they are sealed?'

Scripture clearly refutes that: 'No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God', 1 John 3:9 (NIV).

You said 'Yes' to any believer after being 'sealed' for salvation living the way he/she likes. Go off and live like the devil in sin and degradation and he/she is still a Christian and sealed? Is that what you believe and teach?

Oz

Why does everybody use the lesser of 2 evils for their example? To continue in sin is living in our flesh.......and our flesh craves it's own righteousness, which is evil and the thing Christ did not die for on the Cross.

If someone continues in their sin/flesh and constantly and habitually tries to spiritually murder His Children will they be Unsealed? No IMO. But they will be least in His Kingdom.

 

[gr8grace3]

gr8,

It happened for some in the Hebrews' audience, according to Heb 6:4-6 (ESV). It also happened to Hymenaeus and Alexander who 'made shipwreck of their faith' (1 Tim 1:18-19 ESV).

One of the most truthful things we can teach all believers is that they can commit apostasy (fall away from the faith). Jesus' word on this was, 'The one who endures to the end will be saved', Matt 24:13 (NLT).

Oz

We can make shipwreck of our faith. Thank God it was the OBJECT(Christ) of our faith that saved us.

Matt 24 :13 ~~Those who endure to the end is in the context of the tribulation. And it is a PHYSICAL salvation. They will repopulate the 1000 year earthly reign Of Christ.

 

[Nathan]

Nathan,

If we want to know the meaning of a word in the Greek NT, we do not go to an Interlinear for an explanation. An Interlinear gives a basic word for a translation. It doesn't give an explanation of the meaning of the Greek word. So where do we go for explanations? To Greek Lexicons and Greek Word Studies. The two best known Word Studies are Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Kittel & Friedrich eds) and The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Colin Brown ed.). The first is 10 vols, the second is briefer (3 vols). The leading Greek lexicon is that by Arndt & Gingrich. An older one is by Thayer.

Note what Mark 10:4 states in these various translations (see below). They ALL use the word 'divorce'. Why? Because that is what apostasion means. Let's check Arndt & Gingrich's Greek Lexion. It gives this meaning: 'In the sense of relinquishment of property after sale, abandonment, etc. The consequent giving up of one's own claim explains the meaning which the word acquires in Jewish circles' (Jer 3:8). 'Give (one's wife) a certificate of divorce' (Mt 19:7; Mk 10:4) (Arndt & Gingrich 1957:97).

Colin Brown's study of apostasion is: 'In the NT apolyw [verbal form] has its classical Gk. meanings: to release a prisoner (Mk. 15:6-15; cf. Matt. 18:27 of a debtor); set free from disease (Lk. 13:12); acquit (Lk. 6:37); send people away (Mk. 6:36, 45; 8:3, 9); dismiss from duties of life, allow to die (Lk. 2:29); cf. dismissal from military service ... 66f.); Gen 15: 2; Num. 20:29.... It is especially used of divorcing a wife (Matt. 1:19; 5:31f; 19:2, 7-9; Mk 10:2, 4, 11f.; Lk. 16:18. apostasion means divorce (Matt 5:31; 19:7; Mk. 10:4) (Colin Brown 1975:1.505-506).

New International Version
They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."

New Living Translation
"Well, he permitted it," they replied. "He said a man can give his wife a written notice of divorce and send her away."

English Standard Version
They said, “Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to send her away.”

New American Standard Bible
They said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY."

King James Bible
And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
They said, "Moses permitted us to write divorce papers and send her away."

International Standard Version
They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to divorce her."

I urge you never to depend on an Interlinear to gain the meaning of a Greek word or phrase - particularly when you don't know NT Greek. A Greek-based commentary also will give some further insight, as does C. E. B. Cranfield (1959:319).

Sincerely,
Oz

Works consulted
Arndt, W F & Gingrich, F W 1957. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press (limited edition licensed to Zondervan Publishing House).

Brown, C 1975. apostasion, in C Brown (ed) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, vol 1, 505-506. Exeter: The Paternoster Press.

Cranfield, C. E. B. 1959, The Gospel According to Saint Mark, London: Cambridge University Press.

Thanks. I only use an intiliner to see what word is used, then transition over to the lexicon for definition.

 

[OzSpen]

Why does everybody use the lesser of 2 evils for their example? To continue in sin is living in our flesh.......and our flesh craves it's own righteousness, which is evil and the thing Christ did not die for on the Cross.

If someone continues in their sin/flesh and constantly and habitually tries to spiritually murder His Children will they be Unsealed? No IMO. But they will be least in His Kingdom.

gr8,

I've provided biblical evidence from 1 John (see #171) to contradict that view. John said that 'No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him', 1 John 3:6 (ESV).

I don't know why you continue to perpetrate the false belief that 'someone continues in their sin/flesh and constantly and habitually tries to spiritually murder His Children will they be Unsealed? No IMO. But they will be least in His Kingdom' (your words).

So your view seems to be: Make a decision for Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour. Then go and live like the devil in your sin and flesh and you can never, ever, ever be unsealed from salvation, but that person will be least in God's kingdom'. Is that what you believe?

1 John 3:6 (ESV) refutes such a view, as does 1 John 3:9 (ESV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

We can make shipwreck of our faith. Thank God it was the OBJECT(Christ) of our faith that saved us.

Matt 24 :13 ~~Those who endure to the end is in the context of the tribulation. And it is a PHYSICAL salvation. They will repopulate the 1000 year earthly reign Of Christ.

gr8,

It's amazing the extent you go to try to defend your OSAS.

Matt 24:9-14 (NIV) states:

9 ‘Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.​

The issue in the tribulation is NOT physical salvation. It is an issue that involves:

• 'many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other' v 10). That's not physical salvation.
• 'many false prophets will appear and deceive many people' (v. 11). Again, not physical salvation.
• 'Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold' (v. 12). The love of many growing cold because of the increase of wickedness has nothing to do with physical salvation. Again, you are whistling in the wind.
• 'but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved' (v 13). The preceding verses demonstrate that this is NOT talking about physical salvation, but spiritual salvation that involves people betraying and hating them; false prophets deceiving people;
  
• love of many growing spiritually cold because of the increasing wickedness (v 12);
• the Christian love of many growing cold (v. 12);
• The love of people who endure to the end, in spite of increasing coldness, apostasy and false teaching, does not refer to physical salvation, but spiritual salvation (v. 13);
  
• 'this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come' (v 14). All this will happen before the end and Jesus' second coming. It is not those who are OSAS who are saved, but those who endure to the end, in spite of persecution and apostasy who will make it to God's kingdom.

That's Bible. You seem to be inventing some stuff to get OSAS out of this passage.

Oz

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace

Question: Can a believer do anything he wants, I mean anything, and still be sealed with the Holy Spirit - once they are sealed?

What does the Bible say about the sealing with the Holy Spirit? The OP answered that question.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Corr 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This deposit, which is the Holy Spirit, is a guarantee of what is to come.

So, what is to come? That is answered in Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

And, just to make it very clear, we have Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

So, we are sealed for the day of redemption. Based on being sealed.

If there are any verses that specifically address this sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit and show that by any means this seal can be broken, so that the one sealed is no longer sealed, and no longer guaranteed for the day of redemption, please share.

 

[FreeGrace]

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
JLB

Right. What I've always said. Eternal life is a gift of God. And once given, it is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

Thanks for making my point.

 

[FreeGrace]

Isn't that obvious? Yes.

Just look at these forums. Day in, day out there are people virtually giving it their best effort to unseal another believer.......to no avail though.

Hey, gr8grace3!! Welcome to the fray!

 

[FreeGrace]

Is this a tounge in cheek thing? I mean, do you believe that believers can do anything they want and still be sealed?

The only question is where does the Bible address how anyone who has been sealed can be unsealed (removal of the Holy Spirit).

A sealed believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. To mark the believer as a possession of God.

If there is any way a sealed person can be unsealed, the Bible would specifically warn about it. So,where is the specific warning?