2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[Nathan]

Again, none of my interlinears and lexicons mention anything about divorce for either word.

Try BLB.com. Or biblehub.com

 

[Nathan]

I said this:
"But anyone who can show that these verses DON'T teach or support eternal security are free to proceed.
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30
2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

One thing is sure: they teach something. What do they teach?"

I see nothing in Heb 12:15-17 that is similar to any of the verses on the sealing with the Holy Spirit. And there are no "adoption papers" in either set of verses.

And certainly nothing about "holding on to that "purchase of God" and don't let it go".

We clearly read the verses quite differently.

Do you believe Esau got what was promised to him when he was born?

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"But anyone who can show that these verses DON'T teach or support eternal security are free to proceed.
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30
2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

One thing is sure: they teach something. What do they teach?"



I don't see anything about a "seal of approval" in the verses. I do read of the sealing with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit, or guarantee for the day of redemption.


And I certainly don't see anything like a promise of the "fires of hell" in any of the verses on the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

In fact, I see a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption, which is quite the opposite of going to hell.


This is a description of various kinds of unbelievers. And the Bible uses "unbeliever" to describe someone who has never believed.

Believe me, I understand that you don't see.


You refuse to see, because you have closed your eyes to the truth.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


The unbelieving... period.

Whatever, whoever, does not believe, will not believe, refuses to believe, no longer believes, is covered by this scripture.


In addition, ALL liars, whoever, for whatever reason, any and all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.


And I am at the top of the list.

If I go back to lying, and don't repent then I will have my part in the lake of fire.

I don't equate "hoping" for something with the GUARANTEE of something. Not even close.

Be cause you don't seem to understand what faith is, and what it means.


If you did, you wouldn't make such [edit] statements as... "People who stop having faith in Jesus Christ are still saved, because once a person is saved they are always saved".

Faith is what we have now, as it is the substance [not the reality] of the thing we are HOPING FOR, the very evidence of things not seen.

Now, we don't see Jesus, or our salvation, but we have it by faith, which means, by default, we have the HOPE of eternal life.


We will have eternal life when we hear these words:

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:.. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31,46

Read it carefully.

What does Jesus say? ...but the righteous into eternal life.


The righteous will enter into eternal life, at the end when Jesus comes, and we stand before Him, and we hear these words spoken to us.

The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Read it, Freegrace: Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?


On the day of Judgement, only the righteous will enter into eternal life.

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46


Please show the scriptures where jesus or Paul, promised that unrighteous people will enter into eternal life.


Here is Paul's "PLAIN AS DAY", TEXT BOOK DEFINITION, OF WHO WILL AND WILL NOT ENTER INTO ETERNAL LIFE.


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Those who receive a born again, new nature, and receive the power of the Holy Spirit, because of the blood of Jesus, and the price He paid on the cross, and are forgiven of their past sins, then turn around and go back to serving to serving sin and the devil, you can better well believe you are a traitor and have returned to your own filth from which you were cleansed.



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

I said this:
"But anyone who can show that these verses DON'T teach or support eternal security are free to proceed.
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30
2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

One thing is sure: they teach something. What do they teach?"

I don't equate "hoping" for something with the GUARANTEE of something. Not even close.


I don't see anything about a "seal of approval" in the verses. I do read of the sealing with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit, or guarantee for the day of redemption.


And I certainly don't see anything like a promise of the "fires of hell" in any of the verses on the sealing with the Holy Spirit.

In fact, I see a GUARANTEE for the day of redemption, which is quite the opposite of going to hell.


This is a description of various kinds of unbelievers. And the Bible uses "unbeliever" to describe someone who has never believed.

Brother,
You are playing semantics and I know you are smart eough to know that is counter productive to moving forward in the mission of Christianity.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe Esau got what was promised to him when he was born?

What, exactly, was promised to him when he was born?

 

[Nathan]

What, exactly, was promised to him when he was born?

A birthright.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe me, I understand that you don't see.

We totally disagree on what you understand and misunderstand.

You refuse to see, because you have closed your eyes to the truth.

Your misjudgment of me violates Scripture: Matt 7:1

The unbelieving... period.

That's correct; the unbelieving. That's who will be cast into the lake of fire.

Because they never believed,
they never received the irrevocable gift of God, which is eternal life.

Whatever, whoever, does not believe, will not believe, refuses to believe, no longer believes, is covered by this scripture.

Jesus says otherwise. Those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, from John 10:28. That's eternal security, plainly.

In addition, ALL liars, whoever, for whatever reason, any and all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

And I am at the top of the list.

If I go back to lying, and don't repent then I will have my part in the lake of fire.

Such a view suggests that Jesus Christ didn't die for that sin then. Where is that taught in Scripture?

If you did, you wouldn't make such [edit] statements as... "People who stop having faith in Jesus Christ are still saved, because once a person is saved they are always saved".

Jesus promised that those He gives (when they believe in Him) eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Eternal security is self evident.

What does Jesus say? ...but the righteous into eternal life.

Does this refer to one's own righteousness, or the imputed righteousness of Christ?

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

It really doesn't matter how many times this is quoted. No one will earn eternal life. It is received by faith in Christ.
1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. This verse teaches that on the basis of RECEIVING eternal life, one will NEVER PERISH. Plainly.

 

[FreeGrace]

Brother,
You are playing semantics and I know you are smart eough to know that is counter productive to moving forward in the mission of Christianity.

Not true one bit. There is no guarantee of a "hope". There IS a guarantee in God's promise. And the verses about the sealing in Christ with the Holy Spirit speak of a guarantee. Not a "hope".

Rather than my playing semantics, it is others who want to change words to fit their agenda. I'm sticking with what the Scriptures say.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"What, exactly, was promised to him when he was born?"

A birthright.

No, he was not. It was to be given when the father was old, and the younger brother tricked the father into giving him the blessing.

Further, the birthright was sold by Easu for a bowl of stew. But where does Scripture equate a bowl of stew with salvation? Not.

 

[Nathan]

I asked this:
"What, exactly, was promised to him when he was born?"

No, he was not. It was to be given when the father was old, and the younger brother tricked the father into giving him the blessing.

Further, the birthright was sold by Easu for a bowl of stew. But where does Scripture equate a bowl of stew with salvation? Not.

Interesting. I don't think you'll find a single place a bowl of stew is found to be equated with salvation.

I see you really don't understand the story, nor the description Hebrews gives of it. I'd be happy to expound on it if your interested?

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't see it. Please explain how it is illogical.

You said, "John 15 is about the need to be in fellowship in order to bear fruit. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with losing salvation."

Although one must be "in fellowship" with Christ to produce fruit, that is not what the passage is about.
It is a given that one who is "in fellowship" with Christ is expected to produce fruit.
And, more than being "in fellowship", the passage uses the tern "in me" which is indicative of the intimate relationship of being "in Christ" as a part of His body, the Church and, in fact, one flesh with Christ. (Eph 5:30-32) The word "fellowship" conveys an idea of "hanging out with." The members of my body are much more closely in unison than that. So are those who are members of Christ's body, and even one flesh with Christ as His bride. So I will use the term "in Christ" rather than the term "in fellowship."

Jhn 15:1 (NIV) I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
This verse introduces the passage as an extended metaphor in which Jesus is the vine, the Father is the vinedresser, and believers are the branches.

15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[fn] so that it will be even more fruitful.
The purpose of a branch (a believer) is to produce fruit. (Eph 2:10)
To do so he must be connected to the vine (Christ) from which it gets it life. (Union with Christ is where a believer gets eternal life.)
If a branch which is connected to the vine (is united with Christ) does not produce fruit, the Father cuts it off from the vine; the individual is no longer united to Christ and no longer has eternal life.

Jhn 15:4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches.
If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing.

These two verses tell the people that they must remain "in Christ" in order to produce fruit.
If they do remain "in Christ" they will produce a lot of fruit.
If they do not remain "in Christ" they cannot produce any fruit.

15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

This verse begins with the word "IF" ( as does the second part of v.5) which introduces the possibility that one who is "in Christ" may cease to remain "in Christ."

That being the case, the person who is no longer in Christ, and therefore, not in union with the only source of life, will whither and die. He will certainly not produce any fruit and, in the end, will be gathered up and thrown in the fire. (Fire being a metaphor for hell.)

So, what you said; that one must be in fellowship with Jesus in order to bear fruit, is certainly 100% accurate and is so stated at verse 5b. (if you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit;) But that is only half of Jesus' teaching.
But the passage also clearly states that being "in Christ" is not a guarantee that you will stay,"in Christ."
To remain "in Christ", you must produce fruit.
And, if you choose to do so (though I can't imagine why one would so choose) you may cease to remain "in Christ."

The result of no longer being "in Christ" is that the branch (person) is thrown into the fire (hell).

To be "in Christ" is to have eternal life, to be saved.
To become detached from Christ, either by being cut off by the Father or by detaching oneself, is to cease to be in union with Christ and also to cease to have eternal life. (cease to be saved)
So you have turned the passage around backward by taking the "given" of the passage (that a branch must be connected to the vine in order to bear fruit - that one must be in fellowship with Jesus in order to bear fruit) and making it the point of the passage, which it is not.

The points of the passage are
(1) a believer is expected to bear fruit, it's the reason you were created (Eph 2:10) and
(2) if you do not produce fruit, you will be cut off from Christ and, of necessity, from eternal life or
(3) if you do not remain "in Christ" you will not produce fruit and
(4) the result of not remaining "in Christ" is being cast into hell.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)

DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[JLB]

There is no guarantee of a "hope". There IS a guarantee in God's promise.

Completely 180 degrees backwards.

We have hope in His promise.

The reason we have hope is because of His promise.

If we had what was promised then it wouldn't be a "promise" of something to come.

We who have faith, have the hope of eternal life, because we believe.

• Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

• For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25

• And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

Do you believe and teach that born again Christians who live unrighteously, will go into eternal life on the Day of Judgement?



JLB

 

[JLB]

It really doesn't matter how many times this is quoted. No one will earn eternal life. It is received by faith in Christ.

Exactly right. No one can earn salvation.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

Those who are self seeking, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

Christians who obey unrighteousness, will be partakers of God's wrath.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

• What are "these things", that Paul is referring to?

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.Ephesians 5:3-5


For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Sowing or investing, or being led by the Spirit, is not "earning salvation".

There are simply two choices we have as believers:

1. Live our lives according to the sinful desires of the flesh, and reap death. Obey unrighteousness.
2. Live our lives according to the Spirit, sow to the Spirit, obey the righteous leadings of the Spirit within. Obey Righteousness.

One choice leads to eternal life, the other way leads to partaking of the wrath of God; eternal death.

• Paul said it this way, in his letter to the Romans:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23



JLB

 

[JLB]

That's correct; the unbelieving. That's who will be cast into the lake of fire.

Because they never believed,
they never received the irrevocable gift of God, which is eternal life.

Jesus says otherwise. Those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH, from John 10:28. That's eternal security, plainly.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The end result of hearing His voice, and knowing Him, and following Him is eternal life.


Become a traitor, and betray your brothers and sisters [Jesus] along the way, like Judas Iscariot, and you will wind up where he did.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:9-13




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Interesting. I don't think you'll find a single place a bowl of stew is found to be equated with salvation.

I see you really don't understand the story, nor the description Hebrews gives of it. I'd be happy to expound on it if your interested?

Every poster is free to post what they think will be helpful to others.

 

[FreeGrace]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You said, "John 15 is about the need to be in fellowship in order to bear fruit. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with losing salvation."

Although one must be "in fellowship" with Christ to produce fruit, that is not what the passage is about.

It is futile to keep up this game of badminton.

It is a given that one who is "in fellowship" with Christ is expected to produce fruit.

Another misunderstanding. One that is in fellowship WILL produce fruit. iow, those who are not in fellowship will not, because they cannot, bear fruit.

Which is why Jesus said: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." Jn 15:5

Then, in v.8 He told His disciples the reason for bearing fruit: "This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."

And, more than being "in fellowship", the passage uses the tern "in me" which is indicative of the intimate relationship of being "in Christ" as a part of His body, the Church and, in fact, one flesh with Christ. (Eph 5:30-32) The word "fellowship" conveys an idea of "hanging out with."

The phrase "in Christ" is used both ways. To be "sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit" in Eph 1:13, and as something that we do, or not do.

We have no power or control over the Holy Spirit's sealing. It's done to us. We don't control that. But we do choose to be in or out of fellowship with Christ.

The Bible gives us 2 commands to "stop doing it"; to grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

Now, it is possible to bear fruit and to be in fellowship with Christ while doing either of these things? Of course not.

The members of my body are much more closely in unison than that.

Ever thought about a headache, or a stomachache? How "closely in iunison" are those "members of your body" with all the other members which don't hurt? Certainly not a perfect analogy, but I believe everyone will get the idea.

Jhn 15:4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you.
No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches.
If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit;
apart from me you can do nothing.

These two verses tell the people that they must remain "in Christ" in order to produce fruit.

Which is exactly my point. We don't seal ourselves "in Him". The Holy Spirit does that. But Jesus isn't talking about the sealing, which occurs when one believes, per Eph 1:13. What He was talking about was bearing fruit, which can ONLY occur when one is in fellowship with Him.

If they do remain "in Christ" they will produce a lot of fruit.

And yet, there are lots of believers who aren't producing fruit.

If they do not remain "in Christ" they cannot produce any fruit.

Exactly!

That being the case, the person who is no longer in Christ, and therefore, not in union with the only source of life, will whither and die. He will certainly not produce any fruit and, in the end, will be gathered up and thrown in the fire. (Fire being a metaphor for hell.)

Fire is used frequently in Scripture to indicate judgment. 1 Cor 3:14-15 comes to mind. To apply your "rule", v.15 makes no sense.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe and teach that born again Christians who live unrighteously, will go into eternal life on the Day of Judgement?JLB

I'm always happy to teach what the Bible very clearly says.

This, from Jesus Himself: "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish". John 10:28

Please notice that the single criterion for not perishing (go to hell) is based on receiving eternal life.

If this gift of eternal life was given at the end of one's life (like a reward earned, as seems your view is), then what He said makes no sense.

Of course one will never perish if one is given eternal life at the end of their physical life.

But Jesus also taught that those who believe HAVE eternal life (Jn 5:24). That means NOW, when they believe. So we know that one receives eternal life WHEN they first believe.

And Jesus gave no other criterion for never perishing. Just receiving eternal life.

But the OSNAS view does not agree with what Jesus said.

 

[FreeGrace]

Exactly right. No one can earn salvation.

Seems there is a huge contradiction in your view.

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

You've used this passage frequently as how to receive eternal life. If eternal life is received on the basis of one's deeds, then MOST ASSUREDLY they have earned eternal life or salvation.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.Ephesians 5:3-5

Did Jesus die for these specific sins, or not? Please answer.

For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Sowing or investing, or being led by the Spirit, is not "earning salvation".

Sowing isn't being "led by the Spirit". How does one come up with that notion?

There are simply two choices we have as believers:

1. Live our lives according to the sinful desires of the flesh, and reap death. Obey unrighteousness.
2. Live our lives according to the Spirit, sow to the Spirit, obey the righteous leadings of the Spirit within. Obey Righteousness.

1. This is a very clear statement that salvation is based on how one lives their life. If that were true, we would be our own saviors, based on how we live our life. I don't find that taught in Scripture.

One choice leads to eternal life, the other way leads to partaking of the wrath of God; eternal death.

Jesus taught something far different than your view. He taught that those who believe in Him HAVE eternal life. They receive it, based, not on how one lives their life, but on faith in Him for it.

Paul said it this way, in his letter to the Romans:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Yes, those who are "in Christ", which refers to the sealing with the Holy Spirit from Eph 1:13, HAVE eternal life. Which is a gift of God, and as such, is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

The end result of hearing His voice, and knowing Him, and following Him is eternal life.

No, one becomes one of His sheep by simply "entering through Him, the 'gate', from John 10:9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Is the phrase "will be saved" equivalent to having eternal life?
What does "enters through Me" mean?

Please answer so I can better comprehend your views.

Become a traitor, and betray your brothers and sisters [Jesus] along the way, like Judas Iscariot, and you will wind up where he did.

So then, one is saved, or not, based on one's life. That is not taught in Scripture.

What Scripture DOES teach about lifestyle is that a believer will be rewarded for obedience and faithfulness, and will be disciplined for rebellion and faithlessness.

From all that has been posted regarding your views, it seems that Jesus Christ didn't die for a whole lot of sins. Where is that taught in Scripture?

John the baptist said that Jesus was the "Lamb of God, who TAKES AWAY the sin of the world". He didn't say "most of the sins", or "some of the sins", or "many of the sins", or anything like that. He was clear: the SIN of the world. That means ALL of the sins.

 

[Nathan]

FreeGrace

Question: Can a believer do anything he wants, I mean anything, and still be sealed with the Holy Spirit - once they are sealed?