2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[FreeGrace]

Do you not go to Church?

No, I do go to church.

The Church looks like Grand Central Station in NYC with all the people going in ad then leaving the Church to never darken the threshold again.

I don't go to that church.

And then there is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. The Falling Away is upon the Church, so bad that about 2% of the Church believe the basic tenants of the Christian Faith according to the Double Blind Survey of the American Church. In that Double Blind Survey only the faithful were surveyed. The definition used was the member to find the faithful I'm instructed was they attended service at least three times a week. That would be the people that do all the work in the Church, people that have yielded their Lives over to Jesus.

I do agree that there is an amazing amount of ignorance among the "faithful". Dreadfully so.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Earnest Payment for our being saved.

Yes, for the day of redemption.

If a man (generic) does not feel the presence, the leading and sometimes the hearing the still small voice of God, they should fall on their faces and cry to the LORD for it and promise God, from the greatest depths of the heart scripture speaks of.

The problem is the depth of ignorance about spirituality and growth (or lack thereof). How many believers understand what grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit means, and what it means and what the filling of the Holy Spirit means (and how to be filled). I'm guessing not very many.

 

[FreeGrace]

I just made the same point Jame's did. (James 2:18-20). The religious leaders and Judas were men, not demons. Most of the warnings in the NT are to the self righteous and deceived and you can not apply those characters to born again believers and you can not lump them together. Ask the Lord to show you truths....if you do not involve Him in your studies, then your leanings are a wisdom of the flesh and not Spiritual

Per your first sentence, James was referring to actual demons, not religious leaders.

 

[FreeGrace]

Heb 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

The end of being burned is clearly a reference to hell.

We will disagree. It is a farming metaphor. And what will be "burned" is the thorn and briers, which is parallel to 1 Cor 3:14-15.

True. Those whom God loves he chastises (Heb 12:6) and it you are not chastised by the Lord then you are either perfect or not His child. (Heb 12:8)
The fact that God chastises does not negate the fact that He also cuts off from Christ those who were "in Christ" (the condition of salvation) who do not produce fruit and that those who are thus cut off die and are thrown into the fire and burnt. (John 15)

If God "cuts off from Christ" anyone for any reason, then quite simply, Eph 1:13,14 cannot be true. Because those 2 verses promise or guarantee the day of redemption for those who have believed and are in Christ.

And there are no verses that address anything about the Holy Spirit being removed from anyone.

 

[Jim Parker]

It is a farming metaphor. And what will be "burned" is the thorn and briers, which is parallel to 1 Cor 3:14-15.

It's a parallel teaching to John 15 in which branches (believers) who were "in Christ" (saved) but who produced no fruit were cut off by the father. Branches which are not connected to the vine (Christ) whither and die and are thrown in the fire and burned.

In the Hebrews passage, the field which does not produce good fruit is burned. Being burned is a metapahor for being cast into hell.

If God "cuts off from Christ" anyone for any reason, then quite simply, Eph 1:13,14 cannot be true.

Of course, both verses are true.
And John 15:2 says that the Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit.
That message could not be clearer but, if more clarity is needed, Jesus provided it.
John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Anyone who has been cut off from the branch is obviously not abiding in the vine.
The gathering up happens at the end of the age when the wicked will be gathered by the angels and cast into hell. (Mat13:41-42)

You may be sealed with the Holy Spirit but you are also warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) because a seal can be broken.
Paul, who wrote Ephesians also wrote:
RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. 22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

And there, Paul uses the same term as did Jesus: "cut off."

iakov the fool
gotta run!

 

[Nathan]

Actually, we get the English word "apostasy" from the Greek word in 1 Tim 4:1 "fall away".

1 Tim 4:1
apost¢¡sontaí


Here is what my interlinear shows for that word in 2 Thess 2:3 - apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]
KJV - falling away, forsake.

My interlinear translates the word in 2 Thess the same as in 1 Tim 4:1 - "falling away".

Interesting. The interliner that I use has two different words for Thessalonians's and Timothy.

Which one do you use? I wonder if different manuscripts use different words.

In mine, Timothy uses #868 and Thessalonians uses #646.

 

[Nathan]

I'm curious where you get the idea that our English word comes from #868 and not #646.

Everywhere I look it comes from #646.

 

[Nathan]

No, that's not the point, and the verses don't even mention anything about "revealing the sons of God".


An earnest is a promise or guarantee.


The "adoption" in Roman times was nothing like adoption today. No comparison.


I hope not.


Except one becomes a child of God when one believes. It's not something that God gives us a choice about.

Have you looked at Roman adoption laws? You might change your mind about your view of it. Yes, it was different than today, but still had to go through legal procedures and it was a process.

 

[OzSpen]

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

The question is about the phrase "what is to come", found in both verses. What does it refer to? iow, what's coming?

The phrase "set his seal of ownership on us" relates these 2 verses to Eph 1:13, 14 and 4:30.

Eph 1 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What is clear from all these verses is that whatever it is that is coming, it is guaranteed. To come, that is.

Thoughts?

FreeGrace,

This is your disguised way of pushing OSAS, without dealing with verses that challenge that view, e.g. Heb 6:4-6 (ESV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It's a parallel teaching to John 15 in which branches (believers) who were "in Christ" (saved) but who produced no fruit were cut off by the father. Branches which are not connected to the vine (Christ) whither and die and are thrown in the fire and burned.

In the Hebrews passage, the field which does not produce good fruit is burned. Being burned is a metapahor for being cast into hell.

Of course, both verses are true.
And John 15:2 says that the Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit.
That message could not be clearer but, if more clarity is needed, Jesus provided it.
John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Anyone who has been cut off from the branch is obviously not abiding in the vine.
The gathering up happens at the end of the age when the wicked will be gathered by the angels and cast into hell. (Mat13:41-42)

You may be sealed with the Holy Spirit but you are also warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) because a seal can be broken.
Paul, who wrote Ephesians also wrote:
RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. 22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

And there, Paul uses the same term as did Jesus: "cut off."

iakov the fool
gotta run!

Excellent assessment, Jim.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's a parallel teaching to John 15 in which branches (believers) who were "in Christ" (saved) but who produced no fruit were cut off by the father. Branches which are not connected to the vine (Christ) whither and die and are thrown in the fire and burned.

We disagree. John 15 is about the need to be in fellowship in order to bear fruit. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with losing salvation.

If it did, Jesus sorely misspoke in John 10:28 where He promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Of course, both verses are true.
And John 15:2 says that the Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit.
That message could not be clearer but, if more clarity is needed, Jesus provided it.

I will provide some clarity on the subject. In a marriage, in God's eyes, it is a permanent relationship. In that relationship, there may or may not be fellowship. As to the "cuts off" phrase of John 15, who isn't aware of the possibility of the wife "cutting off" relations with her husband when she's miffed, etc? iow, when she does that, there is no fellowship between the 2.

When a believer is grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, there is no fellowship, and there will be NO bearing fruit.

You may be sealed with the Holy Spirit but you are also warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) because a seal can be broken.

This statement has not been supported in Scripture. In fact, the seal is the Spirit Himself. How can the Spirit be broken? Impossible.

Further, the point of the OP is that all who have been sealed are guaranteed the day of redemption.

Paul, who wrote Ephesians also wrote:
RO 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, HE WILL NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. 22 CONSIDER THEREFORE THE KINDNESS AND STERNNESS OF GOD: STERNNESS TO THOSE WHO FELL, BUT KINDNESS TO YOU, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF.

Yes. The same guy who described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then said that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

Interesting. The interliner that I use has two different words for Thessalonians's and Timothy.

Which one do you use? I wonder if different manuscripts use different words.

My point is that none of my interlinears and lexicons use "divorce" as a meaning.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm curious where you get the idea that our English word comes from #868 and not #646.

Everywhere I look it comes from #646.

In 1 Tim 4:1, the Greek word for "depart/fall away" is apostesontai, from aphistemi. It means to revolt, desert. In 2 Thess 2:3, the Greek word is apostasia, and means to fall away or forsake.

Both Greek words indicate a rejection of something. And both are similar to the English word apostasy.

 

[FreeGrace]

Have you looked at Roman adoption laws? You might change your mind about your view of it. Yes, it was different than today, but still had to go through legal procedures and it was a process.

"Going through a process" isn't the point at all. Everything is a process.

In Romans times, an adoption was a formal ceremony where the estate was legally assigned to the adoptee. It didn't need to be a son, either. There are examples of slaves/servants who were adopted and became legal heir.

The point of Roman adoption in those times was heirship. All believers are adopted in THAT sense. To be heirs of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,

This is your disguised way of pushing OSAS, without dealing with verses that challenge that view, e.g. Heb 6:4-6 (ESV).

Oz

There was no disguise used. Of course the verses on our sealing with the Holy Spirit is about eternal security.

But anyone who can show that these verses DON'T teach or support eternal security are free to proceed.
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30
2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

One thing is sure: they teach something. What do they teach?

 

[Nathan]

My point is that none of my interlinears and lexicons use "divorce" as a meaning.

I see. You have to look at the full definition in order to grasp it. #646 is the same word as #647, except #646 is the feminine of #647 which is a neuter noun. #647 is the word used for "divorce" in the Bible.

I am not a greek expert, but the way it reads, #647 is the 'bill' of divorce, and #646 is the actual leaving or action that the divorce entails.

 

[Nathan]

In 1 Tim 4:1, the Greek word for "depart/fall away" is apostesontai, from aphistemi. It means to revolt, desert. In 2 Thess 2:3, the Greek word is apostasia, and means to fall away or forsake.

Both Greek words indicate a rejection of something. And both are similar to the English word apostasy.

There is a difference between something being similar, and something being what a word actually comes from. I agree, that they are all 'similar'. There are actually 3 words that are 'similar' to our English word apostasy, but our English word only comes from one.

 

[Nathan]

"Going through a process" isn't the point at all. Everything is a process.

In Romans times, an adoption was a formal ceremony where the estate was legally assigned to the adoptee. It didn't need to be a son, either. There are examples of slaves/servants who were adopted and became legal heir.

The point of Roman adoption in those times was heirship. All believers are adopted in THAT sense. To be heirs of God.

Right, but you cannot dispose of the fact it was a process. I agree that it was not the point Paul was making, but when you discount the fact that it was not a process, just like everything else, then you forgo the fact that while the adoption is going to take place - it has not happened yet. Meaning, don't give up your original confidence(that God is adopting you), and keep it till that adoption happens. Paul is saying, "look, here is the seal, the paperwork has been filled out by God, don't look at that paperwork as useless and abandon it".

Its the same thing with Esau. He was the oldest son and had right to the blessing. But he discounted it as worthless and sold it to his brother.

 

[Nathan]

But anyone who can show that these verses DON'T teach or support eternal security are free to proceed.
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30
2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

One thing is sure: they teach something. What do they teach?

They teach this;

Heb 12:15-17
See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;
that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.
For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

They are teaching us that we have a birthright now, we have a seal on adoption papers, we have a guarantee of God's purchase of us - hold on to that by faith and don't let go. Its a sure thing and when the time comes everything will be finalized - that is - at His coming.

 

[JLB]

There was no disguise used. Of course the verses on our sealing with the Holy Spirit is about eternal security.

But anyone who can show that these verses DON'T teach or support eternal security are free to proceed.
Eph 1:13,14, 4:30
2 Cor 1:22, 5:5

One thing is sure: they teach something. What do they teach?

They teach that those who "believe" have the hope of eternal life, as we will all stand before the Lord on the Day of Judgement.

The seal of approval is given to those who believe.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving, are promised the fires of hell.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8

• For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.
• each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
  
• Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:5-11




JLB

 

[JLB]

There was no disguise used. Of course the verses on our sealing with the Holy Spirit is about eternal security.

But anyone who can show that these verses DON'T teach or support eternal security are free to proceed.
Eph 4:30
One thing is sure: they teach something. What do they teach?

Let's look at Ephesians 4:30 and the context, rather than just isolate one verse.

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 4:30-5:7

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Therefore do not be partakers with them.

• The same wrath of God, Paul warns the Romans about.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8

• Here is who will receive eternal life:

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

• Here is who will receive the wrath of God:

those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,


Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Therefore do not be partakers with them.


This warning is to Christians, not to be deceived with empty words, so that when the Day of Judgement comes, they will not be partakers of God's wrath along with the sons of disobedience.


God's people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge, because they reject knowledge and truth, God will reject them.



“There is no truth or mercy
Or knowledge of God in the land.
2 By swearing and lying,
Killing and stealing and committing adultery,
They break all restraint,
With bloodshed upon bloodshed.
3 Therefore the land will mourn;
And everyone who dwells there will waste away
With the beasts of the field
And the birds of the air;
Even the fish of the sea will be taken away.

4 “Now let no man contend, or rebuke another;
For your people are like those who contend with the priest.
5 Therefore you shall stumble in the day;
The prophet also shall stumble with you in the night;
And I will destroy your mother.
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.
Hosea 4:1-6


God loves us and sent His Son to die for us.

Those who repent and believe the Gospel, and forgiven and cleansed of their past sins.
Those who believe and are baptized will be saved, those who stumble and fall will be forgiven if they repent.

Those who are given the Holy Spirit, and return to the filth of their old life from which they were redeemed, not with silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Jesus, and die in their sins... it would have been better if they never knew they way of righteousness, then having known it, and returned to the pollutions of the world.


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22



JLB