2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5; what is coming?

[markathome]

I can believe the Word I heard in the summer bible class when I was 12.
I can then test the Words I heard.
Everytime I have tested those concepts of the Word they always come back true.
Is this the Earnest or was the Earnest when I had lost everything and called upon Jesus name & received the presence of the Holy Spirit?
Could the Earnest be the Word themselves?

 

[Nathan]

I can believe the Word I heard in the summer bible class when I was 12.
I can then test the Words I heard.
Everytime I have tested those concepts of the Word they always come back true.
Is this the Earnest or was the Earnest when I had lost everything and called upon Jesus name & received the presence of the Holy Spirit?
Could the Earnest be the Word themselves?

The earnest is the Spirit of God. Paul is clear on that.

The words are faith. That faith is what gives you the confidence to continue. That faith is what 'connects' you to the Spirit, who in turn gives you more faith.

So the earnest is connected to the words, but there is a difference. To have confidence in just words, without any continuing faith being given by the Spirit, amounts to what James referred to as "dead faith".

Dead faith looks just like real faith. It has the same words you find on the Bible. However, it's lifeless because the Spirit is the only source of life.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Pretty much the same as a guarantee. Thanks.

btw, I had a sharp 57 Chev once. But what is "35 fr power"? I know what 'blown' is.

Sorry, I did not catch that one, it should read a blown 350 Chebby! [No mistype]

 

[th1b.taylor]

One is saved when they believe. Or Paul's answer to the jailer wasn't true.
Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

I am sorry but that passage needs to be reconciled with the three point found in "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5
They are
1. You must not work.

Salvation cannot be achieved. It is not a reward for a life well lived or a paycheck received for hard work done. Those who try to earn the free gift of salvation spit in the face of the Giver, God himself.

2. You must trust God.

Salvation is not earned through good works it is received through simple faith. We believe that Jesus died in our place,

3. You must be wicked.

"However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5

Thanks to http://gregstier.dare2share.org/ for the quotes

 

[th1b.taylor]

Where would one find Scriptural support for "most, almost all" of the Church are not indwelt with the Earnest??

Doesn't Eph 1:13 teach that when one believes they ARE sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, Who is the earnest?

Do you not go to Church? The Church looks like Grand Central Station in NYC with all the people going in ad then leaving the Church to never darken the threshold again. And then there is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. The Falling Away is upon the Church, so bad that about 2% of the Church believe the basic tenants of the Christian Faith according to the Double Blind Survey of the American Church. In that Double Blind Survey only the faithful were surveyed. The definition used was the member to find the faithful I'm instructed was they attended service at least three times a week. That would be the people that do all the work in the Church, people that have yielded their Lives over to Jesus.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Earnest Payment for our being saved. If a man (generic) does not feel the presence, the leading and sometimes the hearing the still small voice of God, they should fall on their faces and cry to the LORD for it and promise God, from the greatest depths of the heart scripture speaks of.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what your point is. Of course all demons, including the devil, know who Jesus is. But what does that have to do with man's salvation? Nothing, as far as I can tell from Scripture.

What we do know from Scripture is that Jesus never died for any angels. So trying to compare demons with humans is a red herring.

I just made the same point Jame's did. (James 2:18-20). The religious leaders and Judas were men, not demons. Most of the warnings in the NT are to the self righteous and deceived and you can not apply those characters to born again believers and you can not lump them together. Ask the Lord to show you truths....if you do not involve Him in your studies, then your leanings are a wisdom of the flesh and not Spiritual

 

[Douglas Summers]

3. You must be wicked.

Good point Bill, most nominal Christians do not think they are wicked, therefore they do not understand Grace.

 

[Jim Parker]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I certainly do believe these verses. But I disagree with your assessment of what they are about. The conditional phrase in v.23 is related to the last part of v.22, NOT the first part.

iow, IF you continue in your faith, then God WILL "present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight".

The phrase "He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death" refers obviously to His death on a cross. He did that in order to "present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight". BUT, ONLY IF the believer continues in their faith can He present them holy, blameless and above reproach.

We agree.

And I agree fully! But...we obviously disagree on what "sharing in Christ" means. It's NOT about getting or staying saved. It's about fellowship.

I would say it is much more than fellowship.
Consider Eph 5:30-32:
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
and
2Co 11:2b ... For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Here Paul compares the 'fellowship" with the intimacy of a bride (the church) and her husband. (Christ)

Once again, I fully agree with this excellent passage. But also again, we disagree on what is being taught. This passage is about spiritual growth, not trying by "making every effort" to stay saved. And when believers fulfill this passage, they will "make their calling and election sure". What that means is to CONFIRM their calling and election.

Yes it is about spiritual growth. Mat 5:48 tells us "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
It is also a warning. Paul said "For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL."
The word "if" introduces the possibility that it is possible for the person who does not do those things to fall. And the word fall can mean, "Go back as start again." or it can refer to another Pauline use of the word "fall":

Heb 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

The end of being burned is clearly a reference to hell.

My sense is that the OSNAS position fails to understand God's discipline for His children who disobey and rebel during this life. It seems to immediately default to loss of salvation and simply bypass God's discipline, in spite of being clearly taught.

True. Those whom God loves he chastises (Heb 12:6) and it you are not chastised by the Lord then you are either perfect or not His child. (Heb 12:8)
The fact that God chastises does not negate the fact that He also cuts off from Christ those who were "in Christ" (the condition of salvation) who do not produce fruit and that those who are thus cut off die and are thrown into the fire and burnt. (John 15)

If my comments are not clear enough, please ask.

Your comments were very clear.
We disagree on a point that does not have any effect on anyone's salvation.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

Good point Bill, most nominal Christians do not think they are wicked, therefore they do not understand Grace.

WOW!
You nailed a horrible condition.
Rev 3:1 And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: "The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. "'I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead."

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

WOW!
You nailed a horrible condition.
Rev 3:1 And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: "The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. "'I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead."

iakov the fool

Yes, as true to day as when it was written. Along with (Rev. 3:17)

 

[Nathan]

Do you not go to Church? The Church looks like Grand Central Station in NYC with all the people going in ad then leaving the Church to never darken the threshold again. And then there is 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. The Falling Away is upon the Church, so bad that about 2% of the Church believe the basic tenants of the Christian Faith according to the Double Blind Survey of the American Church. In that Double Blind Survey only the faithful were surveyed. The definition used was the member to find the faithful I'm instructed was they attended service at least three times a week. That would be the people that do all the work in the Church, people that have yielded their Lives over to Jesus.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the Earnest Payment for our being saved. If a man (generic) does not feel the presence, the leading and sometimes the hearing the still small voice of God, they should fall on their faces and cry to the LORD for it and promise God, from the greatest depths of the heart scripture speaks of.

We should be very careful about placing emphasis on attending church vs being a part of the church.

That's how this mess is started. People thinking going to church makes them good, and if they are members of the local church, then they must be members of Christ.....

If what they, who did they survey, deemed 'faithful' - I would not have been apart of they survey. Just sayin.....

When a person is in Christ it's not manifest in how many times they go to a local building, but rather what happens each moment of every day.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Good point Bill, most nominal Christians do not think they are wicked, therefore they do not understand Grace.

I, honestly feel for them. Between 8 years in the rmy, three tours to South Vietnam, and my 28 years of chasing the Nashville dream,I know what I am without our LORD and I never want to return there. But that does explain the Born Again Believer at the end of the bar try to take someone to their bedroom. They came male and female, trying to Hook-up!

 

[th1b.taylor]

We should be very careful about placing emphasis on attending church vs being a part of the church.

That's how this mess is started. People thinking going to church makes them good, and if they are members of the local church, then they must be members of Christ.....

If what they, who did they survey, deemed 'faithful' - I would not have been apart of they survey. Just sayin.....

When a person is in Christ it's not manifest in how many times they go to a local building, but rather what happens each moment of every day.

You only need to go once to see the hypocrites. They have a false glow and gice all manor of ingindicators, if one looks and listen.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I, honestly feel for them. Between 8 years in the rmy, three tours to South Vietnam, and my 28 years of chasing the Nashville dream,I know what I am without our LORD and I never want to return there. But that does explain the Born Again Believer at the end of the bar try to take someone to their bedroom. They came male and female, trying to Hook-up!

One of the pastors at church lived next door to Charlie Daniels. He was quit a boozer at one time, He had a bar in his ranch full of plenty of whisky. When He accepted the Lord, He dug a big hole in his south field and threw all the booze in it and buried it. I retired from Metro Nashville Government.

 

[th1b.taylor]

One of the pastors at church lived next door to Charlie Daniels. He was quit a boozer at one time, He had a bar in his ranch full of plenty of whisky. When He accepted the Lord, He dug a big hole in his south field and threw all the booze in it and buried it. I retired from Metro Nashville Government.

I know that Charlie looks healthier and that he is not playing all of the same gigs, funny 'bout that. When I walked out of the New Years gig they tried to change my mind because there were two more sets to play and it got me black listed, It was really bad

 

[th1b.taylor]

One of the pastors at church lived next door to Charlie Daniels. He was quit a boozer at one time, He had a bar in his ranch full of plenty of whisky. When He accepted the Lord, He dug a big hole in his south field and threw all the booze in it and buried it. I retired from Metro Nashville Government.

I'm glad to hear that, he was beginning to look a little rough, I thought.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ok.

That's actually not the Greek word that we get our word apostasy from. 2 Thessalonians 2 has it.

Actually, we get the English word "apostasy" from the Greek word in 1 Tim 4:1 "fall away".

1 Tim 4:1
apost¢¡sontaí

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (ESV) 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

"Rebellion"
apostasia
Root Word (Etymology): feminine of the same as G647
apostasion
Outline of Biblical Usage:

1. 
   
   
   • divorce, repudiation
   • a bill of divorce

Strong's Definitions: ἀποστάσιονapostásion, ap-os-tas'-ee-on; neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:—(writing of) divorcement.

Here is what my interlinear shows for that word in 2 Thess 2:3 - apostasia (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah); feminine of the same as NT:647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ["apostasy"]
KJV - falling away, forsake.

My interlinear translates the word in 2 Thess the same as in 1 Tim 4:1 - "falling away".

 

[FreeGrace]

Your original post is referring to the redemption and revealing of the sons of God. That's the point.

No, that's not the point, and the verses don't even mention anything about "revealing the sons of God".

You have the 'earnest' of this adoption, but you don't have the final outcome yet.

An earnest is a promise or guarantee.

So to use your analogy, the parents in the process of adopting a child(and it is a process), if during that process the child decides they do not want the family to adopt them, the court has a legal obligation to cancel the adoption.

The "adoption" in Roman times was nothing like adoption today. No comparison.

I'm NOT saying that God cancels the adoption.

I hope not.

I am saying that those who lay aside their confidence are laying aside the desire to be adopted. They make the decision to not be apart of the family, not God.

Except one becomes a child of God when one believes. It's not something that God gives us a choice about.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, I did not catch that one, it should read a blown 350 Chebby! [No mistype]

Roger that!!

 

[FreeGrace]

I am sorry but that passage needs to be reconciled with the three point found in "However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5
They are
1. You must not work.

Salvation cannot be achieved. It is not a reward for a life well lived or a paycheck received for hard work done. Those who try to earn the free gift of salvation spit in the face of the Giver, God himself.

2. You must trust God.

Salvation is not earned through good works it is received through simple faith. We believe that Jesus died in our place,

3. You must be wicked.

"However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Romans 4:5

Thanks to http://gregstier.dare2share.org/ for the quotes

I agree with all of this.