2 Peter 2:21-22

[George Muller]

...the righteousness of faith as Paul taught.

Righteousness by having faith does not mean you are declared righteous before God because you had the faith to heal somebody, or you had the faith to do right things, or had the faith to go to church, etc. It means having the faith that God can and will forgive you through the blood of Christ--Period.

That's why there's no boast of righteous work possible in faith being the way to the righteousness of Christ. But we see much boasting in the church of people who say what they do 'by faith' makes them righteous before God. That's nothing more than the Judaizer's argument according to present theology and doctrines of the church. It's still the damnable gospel of works righteousness. God did not give us the faith to believe so we can then earn our own justification by doing right things through that faith.

All boasting is in the Lord, for those who know the true gospel, if some are boasting as if they have something that was not first given to them, you can be sure they are in error.

 

[George Muller]

Re: 2 Peter 2:21-22


















Originally Posted by George Muller


No the law is not sin, it holds people in bondage to sin "for the strength of sin is the law" And of course Peter is warning fellow Jews about turning back from faith " for the law is not of faith" The "way of righteousness" is the "righteousness of faith and Peter is warning those who would turn back to law, just as Paul did over and over.



This is not part of the subject matter, if you want to start a new thread about this subject matter then please do so.

Of course the issue is the righteousness of faith and in effect those who reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish there own, through the law.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[George Muller]

No the law is not sin, it holds people in bondage to sin "for the strength of sin is the law" And of course Peter is warning fellow Jews about turning back from faith " for the law is not of faith" The "way of righteousness" is the "righteousness of faith and Peter is warning those who would turn back to law, just as Paul did over and over.

This is not part of the subject matter, if you want to start a new thread about this subject matter then please do so.

"Having eyes full of adultery"- "spiritual adultery" Ro 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. "and that cannot cease from sin"- For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, "an heart they have exercised with covetous practices;"-Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. ;" cursed children:"-Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Again, you are not discussing the subject matter.'

You are attempting to divert the subject by introducing other scriptures that are not part of the subject matter. Please stop trying to twist this into a debate about the law, and being justified by the law.

Use 2 Peter 2:21-22 or verses directly before or after to maintain the integrity of the subject matter.

2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

Eyes full of adultery - Lust of the eyes.

an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; desiring what others have.

Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh are things we are taught in the new testament to turn away from.


after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ... ie; born again and are free from the pollutions because they have been cleansed by the blood of the lamb.


they are again entangled in them and overcome...


OSAS is MYTH that has been BUSTED by God's holy word.

OSAS is a doctrine of man.


JLB

Who is promoting OSAS? It is the point here that when a believer turns from the "way of righteousness"- righteousness of faith as is taught throughout the gospel, back to the law, they have "fallen from grace"-cut-off from Christ; Having been justified and washed by Christ they are like the swine that returns to wallow in the mud of sin- for the strength of sin is the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Kinda reminds me of the parable of the sower...

Yes...where Jesus said they believed for a little while but then fell away:

"13 Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Matthew 13:13 NASB)

But did they ever truly believe in their heart, or was it just superficial?

Romans 10:9
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Did they ever truly believe in their heart? I don't know, but that may well be where the issue is decided.

Perhaps the journey of faith crosses a line of no return somewhere. That's only one of two suggestions I have to defend OSAS in some form. But the more I read the passages dealing with OSAS/ non-OSAS it seems the Bible does not differentiate. You either believe, or you don't believe (meaning 'trust'). But the Bible does talk about the testing of our faith to prove it's genuineness.

 

[JLB]

Who is promoting OSAS?

you have been.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is clear to me, I doubt very much that one who promotes legalism would see any problem in legalism?

Obviously.

And certainly you can see I do not approve of justification by ANYTHING other than trust in the blood of Christ.

So your point has no meaning to me, and the very fact that you and others strive against the doctrines of grace, prove the hold legalism has over many on this forum.

By Biblical definition it's impossible that I am a legalist. I believe that the only 'work' that justifies is the 'work' of trusting in the blood of Christ, period.

What you will be hard pressed to find in the church is a legalist who believes that they are justified by obedience to all Ten Commandments. The problem in the church in regard to legalism is the legalism of thinking that one's church attendance, the service of their gift, their worship style, the accuracy of their doctrine, etc. makes them righteous before God. NONE of that justifies. The ONLY thing that justifies is the blood of Christ secured through the 'work' of believing. That is the true grace gospel. If anybody adds anything (the working of a gift, church attendance, correct doctrine, spiritual powers, etc.) to that basic message, they have watered down the truth of God's grace in justification and are false witnesses to that grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Who is promoting OSAS?

you have been.

He HAD been in other threads.

Now he's promoting that you CAN lose the grace of justification, by turning from grace to reliance on works of the law for justification. That's a non-OSAS argument. And one I was making in past threads. And one I know you would agree with, too.

The contention lies in George's definition of legalism. Hold on to your hat, lol.

 

[JLB]

Who is promoting OSAS?

you have been.

He HAD been in other threads.

Now he's promoting that you CAN lose the grace of justification, by turning from grace to reliance on works of the law for justification. That's a non-OSAS argument. And one I was making in past threads. And one I know you would agree with, too.

The contention lies in George's definition of legalism. Hold on to your hat, lol.

Concerning the word believe -

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

that you believe in Him...

That word believe carries a meaning that is more than just a mental affirmation that "there is a God" or that God exists.

Let's look at an example.

22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:22-23

Abraham believed God carries a meaning of trust as well as obedience.

Abraham trusted God therefore he obeyed God.

1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." 4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. Genesis 12:1-4

When God spoke to Abraham, at that moment faith was imparted to him to accomplish the thing God desired Abraham to do.

However, if Abraham doesn't actually perform and do what God says, there will be no great nation, there will be no great name, there will be no blessing, and there will be no Messiah.

So, the work of Abraham was to believe, by validating that he believed, he obeyed.

Look at this scripture as to how the word disobey and unbelief are the same exact word in the Greek.

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Believing is obeying. If you don't believe, you won't obey.

Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, and you don't do what I say.

This is the work of God, that you believe...


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Who is promoting OSAS?

you have been.

Now JLB, you know very well the position I have defended that salvation is sure in grace. In fact my friend grea8grace, was rather upset with my positions, because they are not traditional OSAS doctrine.

 

[George Muller]

Who is promoting OSAS?

you have been.

He HAD been in other threads.

Now he's promoting that you CAN lose the grace of justification, by turning from grace to reliance on works of the law for justification. That's a non-OSAS argument. And one I was making in past threads. And one I know you would agree with, too.

The contention lies in George's definition of legalism. Hold on to your hat, lol.

Now Jethro, you also know my position has not changed, and OSAS is sound doctrine when is based upon the Grace of God, if that grace is rejected by "free-will" - "legalism" the scriptures declare clear and fearful warnings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now Jethro, you also know my position has not changed, and OSAS is sound doctrine when is based upon the Grace of God, if that grace is rejected by "free-will" - "legalism" the scriptures declare clear and fearful warnings.

Okay we're cool.

If you don't stay in God's grace through faith you can't be saved.
If you do stay in God's grace through faith you will remain always saved.

We're good.

 

[JLB]

Who is promoting OSAS?

you have been.

Now JLB, you know very well the position I have defended that salvation is sure in grace. In fact my friend grea8grace, was rather upset with my positions, because they are not traditional OSAS doctrine.

Now you know I disagree

 

[gr8grace]

Who is promoting OSAS?

you have been.

Now JLB, you know very well the position I have defended that salvation is sure in grace. In fact my friend grea8grace, was rather upset with my positions, because they are not traditional OSAS doctrine.

I was not and am not upset George. I just believe that the law does not have the power to save and the law does not have the power to unsave. The Law has the power to make life miserable for a believer If they get caught up in thinking it is the way or part of salvation. We can experientially, in this physical life fall out of Grace. However, Positionally In Christ we can NEVER fall out of Grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As far as I know there's nothing in 2 Peter to suggest the false prophets who turned away from the grace of God did so by turning to the law. Peter says they left the straight way to follow Balaam "who loved the wages of unrighteousness" (2 Peter 2:15 NASB).

It seems these fallen people simply loved wickedness more than righteousness and like a sow “after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire†(2 Peter 2:22 NASB) went back to what they love.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can experientially, in this physical life fall out of Grace. However, Positionally In Christ we can NEVER fall out of Grace.

I'm sure you know that Jude speaks of these very same people who fall away from grace. This is what he says about them:

"11...they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam... 12...autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 ...for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever." (Jude 11-13)

We see here that their punishment is an eternal damnation, not a temporary chastisement by the Lord for being disobedient, unbelieving 'believers'. Jude says they are "doubly dead (vs.12)". Not only are they fruitless, they are uprooted. They've already sealed their fate in regard to the second death. They're doomed. Their destiny is the same as the one who never believed. These people who have been washed, but then return to the mire, are not ultimately saved as you suggest. They suffer the same fate as unbelieving souls who go to the outer darkness, forever.

35 “Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit. 36 Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes...
43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:35-37, 43-46 NASB)


Matthew says it like this:

"50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
" (Matthew 24:50-51 NASB)

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth", what we know to be the eternal damnation of the wicked:

40 So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:40-43 NASB)


"...and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-14 NASB)


Don't you agree that this is the truth we ought to be telling people?

"He who has ears, let him hear."

 

[JLB]

Don't you agree that this is the truth we ought to be telling people?

That they may fear God and shun evil.

That they may live soberly in an evil an wicked generation.



JLB

 

[George Muller]

As far as I know there's nothing in 2 Peter to suggest the false prophets who turned away from the grace of God did so by turning to the law. Peter says they left the straight way to follow Balaam "who loved the wages of unrighteousness" (2 Peter 2:15 NASB).

It seems these fallen people simply loved wickedness more than righteousness and like a sow “after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire” (2 Peter 2:22 NASB) went back to what they love.

Yes of course it is speaking of those who turn from the righteousness of faith "the way of righteousness" back to self-righteousness. This is the common warning of scripture, and has the most dreadful results. Balaam "cursed" Gods people, those who teach the law are cursing Gods people. For all under law are under its curse.

 

[George Muller]

Don't you agree that this is the truth we ought to be telling people?

If you look at each of these, none of these warnings are made to believers in grace. The most severe warnings of scripture are to the legalist, don't you think we ought to be telling these people?

 

[George Muller]

Don't you agree that this is the truth we ought to be telling people?

That they may fear God and shun evil.

That they may live soberly in an evil an wicked generation.



JLB

who has bewitched you? Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or the hearing of faith? having begun in the Spirit are now made perfect by the flesh?

So Godly living is not through legalism or the spirit of fear again unto bondage, these are false forms of godliness and are rejected as religion of mans flesh.

 

[JLB]

Don't you agree that this is the truth we ought to be telling people?

If you look at each of these, none of these warnings are made to believers in grace. The most severe warnings of scripture are to the legalist, don't you think we ought to be telling these people?

If a person is a believer, it is because of Grace.

Every true believer is in Grace.

The New Testament was not written for the world, but for believers.

The New Testament was written to teach believers.

The New Testament was written to keep them from turning to the right hand [Legalism] or to the left [lawlessness].

The New Testament was written to keep the believer on the path of Life, the narrow way, the way that leads to life.



JLB