7 reasons gay ain't OK

[CalledToServe]

You don't have to want to force theocracy on our society in order to show support for His Word. You are sounding as intolerant as you are making others out to be. Do you believe God finds homosexual acts to be an abomination? Do you see anywhere in God's Word where He did not intend for marriage to be between a man and a woman?

You may decide not to show support for such bills, but why do you seem bent on demonizing the Christian who does? Is voting for proposals like this or voicing our opinion the same as forcing our will upon society to you? We may not have more say, but we don't have less say.

I must admit that I'm puzzled when I hear Christians fighting so vigorously for something that goes against God's Design. We as Christians have got to find a way to show compassion for everyone without giving in to what the world wants. Espousing the same message as the world isn't the answer. It may not be popular, but we shouldn't be moved from our commitment to His Word.

It's black and white for me since there are several key events in my life that forces me to look at things like this through a very unique lens. The first is that I was called to be a minister of God's Word. The entirety of Christ's message is summed up in three commandments. Love the Lord your God with all that you are, love your neighbor as yourself, and to love your neighbor as Christ loves you. As a Christian, it is not my place to judge (Matthew 7:1-6), but it is my job to love the sinner as Christ loves me, even to the point where I may be called to give my life in defense of someone else.

The second key event is taking my oath of enlistment and oath of office when I worked as a security officer. My oath has no expiration date and will be in effect until I die. The oath is quite simple... I do solemnly swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States while bearing true faith to the same. The Constitution enshrines equality of everyone in law and in life. Part of that is that I have to respect other's opinions even if I disagree with them. It is their right to hold those beliefs.

However, when the two converge, like in this thread, I work to bring others to greater understanding of what Christ taught. If you had noticed that in all my posts, I do not quote men and their man-made doctrines. I quote Jesus Christ because it is through Him that we are saved. Just because I am a Christian does not mean that I am condoning behavior that God disapproves of. In fact, you will find that I will support bringing gays to the Lord as I would to anyone else that is unsaved. I am reminded that if it wasn't for God's grace that I would not be alive today and that every day on this earth is a blessing.

If you think that I'm demonizing Christians for their moral superiority over the sinners, then you would be mistaken. Paul, Jesus, and the Apostles all taught that we are to exhort one another to do good for others, unsaved and saved alike. They make no distinction between the two groups since by doing good to the unsaved we have an opportunity to show them the light of Christ in us to bring them to salvation. It's far easy to sit like a Pharisee and act contrary to the teachings of Christ then it is to take up for your fellow man that is downtrodden and prevented from enjoying the blessings that He gave them. I enjoy many rights and privileges that certain minorities do not enjoy. Is it right? No. Is it moral? No. Is it Christ-like? Definitely not. By denying them the basic rights that we all enjoy we are not showing the light of Christ in us and we're not showing them that we love them as Christ loves us. Just because you're a Christian does not mean that you're not a sinner. Even as Christians we sin daily and repent for it daily. The only difference between a Christian and the unsaved is that we have Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior to act as the mediator between us and God for our sins, since He bore those sins in His death, burial, and resurrection.

How far will you go, as a Christian, to defend the downtrodden and the oppressed, even the unsaved ones? Our example is Jesus Christ. What lengths did He go to to defend the downtrodden and the oppressed? The scriptures say that Christ died the most humiliating death possible of that time for our salvation. He went and gave 1100% to bring reconciliation and salvation to all of the unsaved.

 

[Milk-Drops]

It's black and white for me since there are several key events in my life that forces me to look at things like this through a very unique lens. The first is that I was called to be a minister of God's Word. The entirety of Christ's message is summed up in three commandments. Love the Lord your God with all that you are, love your neighbor as yourself, and to love your neighbor as Christ loves you. As a Christian, it is not my place to judge (Matthew 7:1-6), but it is my job to love the sinner as Christ loves me, even to the point where I may be called to give my life in defense of someone else.

The second key event is taking my oath of enlistment and oath of office when I worked as a security officer. My oath has no expiration date and will be in effect until I die. The oath is quite simple... I do solemnly swear to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States while bearing true faith to the same. The Constitution enshrines equality of everyone in law and in life. Part of that is that I have to respect other's opinions even if I disagree with them. It is their right to hold those beliefs.

However, when the two converge, like in this thread, I work to bring others to greater understanding of what Christ taught. If you had noticed that in all my posts, I do not quote men and their man-made doctrines. I quote Jesus Christ because it is through Him that we are saved. Just because I am a Christian does not mean that I am condoning behavior that God disapproves of. In fact, you will find that I will support bringing gays to the Lord as I would to anyone else that is unsaved. I am reminded that if it wasn't for God's grace that I would not be alive today and that every day on this earth is a blessing.

If you think that I'm demonizing Christians for their moral superiority over the sinners, then you would be mistaken. Paul, Jesus, and the Apostles all taught that we are to exhort one another to do good for others, unsaved and saved alike. They make no distinction between the two groups since by doing good to the unsaved we have an opportunity to show them the light of Christ in us to bring them to salvation. It's far easy to sit like a Pharisee and act contrary to the teachings of Christ then it is to take up for your fellow man that is downtrodden and prevented from enjoying the blessings that He gave them. I enjoy many rights and privileges that certain minorities do not enjoy. Is it right? No. Is it moral? No. Is it Christ-like? Definitely not. By denying them the basic rights that we all enjoy we are not showing the light of Christ in us and we're not showing them that we love them as Christ loves us. Just because you're a Christian does not mean that you're not a sinner. Even as Christians we sin daily and repent for it daily. The only difference between a Christian and the unsaved is that we have Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior to act as the mediator between us and God for our sins, since He bore those sins in His death, burial, and resurrection.

How far will you go, as a Christian, to defend the downtrodden and the oppressed, even the unsaved ones? Our example is Jesus Christ. What lengths did He go to to defend the downtrodden and the oppressed? The scriptures say that Christ died the most humiliating death possible of that time for our salvation. He went and gave 1100% to bring reconciliation and salvation to all of the unsaved.

Someone gets it. You have done what I've tried to say all along. We may disagree on spiritual grounds, but we are the same when it comes to issues such as these.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I find your approach interesting and I respect you, but I disagree somewhat. Jesus didn't die so sinners could stay in their sins. He died to give us freedom from sin and Christian liberty.

 

[Mike]

CalledToServe, thank you for your perspective, but you didn't really address several of my questions. Is homosexuality something God says is an abomination? Is there any biblical support for homosexual marriages in scripture.

You seem to be implying that you cannot stay true to His Word while treating non-believers with compassion. Do you believe it is not possible to support His model of one man and one woman and still shine His Light in a dark world? Your responses in this thread have been tense toward those who have said nothing about the homosexual (that I have seen) but rather the act of homosexual behavior.

If we had members attacking "the person", I would very much be in your corner. But we seem to have differing opinions. I believe God's rules are given to us in Love, and they are for our own good. For example lust. If/when I lust over a woman, it rips something inside my heart, knowing that I have desired something that isn't mine. I don't see a conflict between "Love the Lord with all your heart..." and holding sway in a world that rejects His Order for our lives.

Loving all of His Word is part of loving the Lord with all your heart.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I find your approach interesting and I respect you, but I disagree somewhat. Jesus didn't die so sinners could stay in their sins. He died to give us freedom from sin and Christian liberty.

I'm truly asking this calmly. What does that have to do with campaigning against a group of people by making a list of exaggerated claims that are almost completely opinion or not exclusive to these people?

 

[westtexas]

How far will you go, as a Christian, to defend the downtrodden and the oppressed, even the unsaved ones?

CalledToServe, the way I am reading this thread, it is not the sinner which is being debated, but the sin itself. And some on this thread are defending the sin of homosexuality. Surely, as a minister, you will agree that homosexuality is a sin. Correct? Do any of us, saved or unsaved, have the "RIGHT" to go against God's word and sin regardless of the sin?
Westtexas

 

[Mike]

I'm truly asking this calmly. What does that have to do with campaigning against a group of people by making a list of exaggerated claims that are almost completely opinion or not exclusive to these people?

Campaigning? He's campaigning?

I would say it's "campaigning" to be obsessed with a forum mostly made up of Christians to argue with the opinions of believers on virtually every point.

Lance, how is he "campaigning"?

 

[DarkHorseRising]

The point of it is likely to mask homophobia behind a thin veneer of "concern" for their sins. It does little to help anyone, as the church position on homosexuality is a surprise to nobody. But if one pretends they don't know it is a sin, they can harp on them all day long. No, it doesn't encourage anyone to experience God's love, but then again that's not really their point to begin with.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Campaigning? He's campaigning?

I would say it's "campaigning" to be obsessed with a forum mostly made up of Christians to argue with the opinions of believers on virtually every point.

Lance, how is he "campaigning"?

If believers are wrong, there's nothing wrong with arguing with them.

It's "campaigning" in the sense that no positive benefit is derived from such statements. Homosexuals know they're not complying with God's laws. You cannot badger someone into holiness. What you can do is show compassion and understanding to the fact that sin is endemic in society, and that a non-homosexual is no less sinful than they are. All fall short of the Glory of God. We serve nobody by slamming those who are different than ourselves.

 

[CalledToServe]

CalledToServe, the way I am reading this thread, it is not the sinner which is being debated, but the sin itself. And some on this thread are defending the sin of homosexuality. Surely, as a minister, you will agree that homosexuality is a sin. Correct? Do any of us, saved or unsaved, have the "RIGHT" to go against God's word and sin regardless of the sin?
Westtexas

Actually, the OP makes it clear that the thread has to do about societal pressures rather than a sin.

As a minister, yes, homosexuality is a sin. It is not my job to judge them on their sin, since I am a sinner almost like they are. If we're not practicing the sin then we aren't sinning in that regards. However, by denying a minority group their equal rights using the Bible as a basis then we have sinned by going against God and His commandments. What is the three greatest commandments given by Christ? How are you applying those commandments in regards to the oppressed, downtrodden, and the unsaved?

If you read the scriptures about Jesus's ministry you'll be quick to find out that He ministered to the unsaved and those Jews that didn't practice as required by Mosaic ceremonial law. He even stood up for the downtrodden and oppressed by using His very life to intervene. Jesus protecting the woman adulterer, Him protecting the sick and healing them on the Sabbath, etc... How are you comparing to His example? I'll even open these questions up to every Christian here.

 

[Mike]

If believers are wrong, there's nothing wrong with arguing with them.

It's "campaigning" in the sense that no positive benefit is derived from such statements. Homosexuals know they're not complying with God's laws. You cannot badger someone into holiness. What you can do is show compassion and understanding to the fact that sin is endemic in society, and that a non-homosexual is no less sinful than they are. All fall short of the Glory of God. We serve nobody by slamming those who are different than ourselves.

Remember, we are not to conform to this world. When our world view is so strikingly similar to the secular world, there might be some conforming going on.

I would take more time to learn about the person you are making these claims about. With a very brief, shallow understanding of this person's perspective, you might conclude that he's campaigning, but he's not.

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Remember, we are not to conform to this world. When our world view is so strikingly similar to the secular world, there might be some conforming going on.

I would argue that looking down on others who are different than us, or who do things we disagree with, as conforming to this world. We're called not to judge others but to forgive them and show them kindness. I personally want people to get to know Christ and explore His teachings, to rejoice in God's promise to them. They will NEVER make an effort to explore this if the message they're getting from avowed Christians is that they are unnatural, wretched, or sick. Yes, they are sinners. So are we.

Let's advertise God's love, not His vengeance.

 

[westtexas]

As a minister, yes, homosexuality is a sin. It is not my job to judge them on their sin, since I am a sinner almost like they are. If we're not practicing the sin then we aren't sinning in that regards. However, by denying a minority group their equal rights using the Bible as a basis then we have sinned by going against God and His commandments. What is the three greatest commandments given by Christ? How are you applying those commandments in regards to the oppressed, downtrodden, and the unsaved?

Agreed, it is not your job to judge anybody. But it IS your job to hold the bible high and call a sin a sin. And you are not a sinner "almost like they are", you and I both, are sinners JUST LIKE they are. "For all have sinned"-our sins are simply different. And if you want to give this "minority group" equal rights in the secular world that is fine and dandy. But NO SIN should be approved within the church which has happened with the sin of homosexuality. And the greatest commandment is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Matt. 22:37". And this cannot be accomplished by preaching anything that is in conflict with scripture.
Westtexas

 

[reba]

We get this judging thing out of whack.
We judge someone about every day. Should i have Sally baby set... Linda is the most beautiful girl.. Will Joe mow the lawn better the Steve? The cook at the diner is not the best. I would rather shop at maceys then wallyworld... We judge by complaining others are judging.... Dont judge Bundy to be a killer let your daughter date him ? We are to judge we are to judge things and people all the time it called making good choices in todays world..
Tell a drugy you are welcome in my home any time.... We dont do that because we have good ol common sense and we judge it to not be safe.
Dealing with individuals one on one and dealing with a political movement are to completely different things.

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Is one of the above more scripture than the other?

 

[CalledToServe]

Agreed, it is not your job to judge anybody. But it IS your job to hold the bible high and call a sin a sin. And you are not a sinner "almost like they are", you and I both, are sinners JUST LIKE they are. "For all have sinned"-our sins are simply different. And if you want to give this "minority group" equal rights in the secular world that is fine and dandy. But NO SIN should be approved within the church which has happened with the sin of homosexuality. And the greatest commandment is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Matt. 22:37". And this cannot be accomplished by preaching anything that is in conflict with scripture.
Westtexas

I do hold the Bible high and proclaim a sin a sin when the topic is about it. This thread is not about that at all. It is secular based thread to deny people rights that they are created with.

The caveat in my statement "almost like they are" is that there is one difference. I repent daily and seek forgiveness for my sins while the unsaved do not. Hence, I am almost like they are.

This is not about a church giving approval of sin nor condoning it. It is a matter of giving people equal rights because we are under the rule of law that says we must. The same rule of law states that we cannot base law off of religious books, for good reason since look at all the atrocities committed using the Bible as a basis like the Salem Witch Trials.

You missed the other two commandments. I asked you what are the three greatest commandments given by Christ?

I do not recall that I was preaching on anything scriptural in regards to sin. I do recall making an argument based upon the law of the land and Christ's commandments of all Christians to do. I am reminded that we do not live in a theocracy, but under a secular government where the freedom to worship or not is a protected right. Just like having opinions regarding the law of the land. Just because I am called to be a minister does not mean that I will not call a sin a sin. It means that while we all live under secular law then we have to apply Christ's three greatest commandments to others even if we don't like it.

Keep in mind that Paul and Peter both wrote that we are to submit ourselves to the rule of law of the land of where we live at. This means that we have to adhere to the equality principles enshrined in the Constitution of the United States and state constitutions. Peter wrote it in 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Paul in Romans 13:1-7.

 

[reba]

Keep in mind that Paul and Peter both wrote that we are to submit ourselves to the rule of law of the land of where we live at. This means that we have to adhere to the equality principles enshrined in the Constitution of the United States and state constitutions. Peter wrote it in 1 Peter 2:13-17 and Paul in Romans 13:1-7.

Do you also support abortion?

 

[handy]

I do hold the Bible high and proclaim a sin a sin when the topic is about it. This thread is not about that at all. It is secular based thread to deny people rights that they are created with.

CalledtoServe, I encourage you to go back and read the OP and what Christ-Empowered (who knows first hand what it's like to struggle with homosexuality) also said in post #7...

This thread really isn't about denying people rights that they are created with.... I think it was CE's intent to provide some of the negative impact that homosexuality has on a person and their ability to relate to people in the way God would have us relate to others.

Sin will always have a negative impact. There is nothing wrong with spelling out what some of that impact will be.

 

[Former Christian]

Christians tend to bury their own sins in their back yard through Biblical interpretation. Then they single out the Gay Christians for doing the same thing, when they have the same problem in their own back yard. Sure, everyone’s a sinner. Instead of sermonizing the bible, just read it in the congregation. Let the one who’s supposed to do the convicting do his job. Instead of us trying to his job for him.

NC

 

[DarkHorseRising]

Christians tend to bury their own sins in their back yard through Biblical interpretation. Then they single out the Gay Christians for doing the same thing, when they have the same problem in their own back yard. Sure, everyone’s a sinner. Instead of sermonizing the bible, just read it in the congregation. Let the one who’s supposed to do the convicting do his job. Instead of us trying to his job for him.

NC

Yes!!! Why do non-Christians think more Biblically than many professing Christians?

 

[handy]

FC, I agree with your post... It's not the Church's job to judge people in the world.

We are to judge within the Church and keep each other sharp and focused, but no those outside in the world.

However, the idea that homosexuality should be embraced as something normal and with an "God made me this way" outlook has crept into the church... well within the church.

I looked at C-E's OP as more of some personal thoughts as to some of the reasons why the Church shouldn't be embracing homosexuality as being God ordained.