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7 reasons gay ain't OK

Do you also support abortion?

No, because I believe that life begins at conception. I also believe that a child has rights and the mother is there to help his/her to grow to make it to delivery. I also use science, specifically genetics, to show the failings of pro-death supporters arguments.

A final note, Jeremiah 1:5 says a lot about the subject of when life begins.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

CalledtoServe, I encourage you to go back and read the OP and what Christ-Empowered (who knows first hand what it's like to struggle with homosexuality) also said in post #7...

This thread really isn't about denying people rights that they are created with.... I think it was CE's intent to provide some of the negative impact that homosexuality has on a person and their ability to relate to people in the way God would have us relate to others.

Sin will always have a negative impact. There is nothing wrong with spelling out what some of that impact will be.

It's nice of you to imply that I don't know anything about struggling with homosexuality. I struggled for years with it myself due to being sexually abused by a 50 year old man. Thank the Lord that I no longer suffer from it and I'm rock solid straight today. My heart goes out to CE for his struggle and I pray for him daily for the Lord's guidance.

My replies in this thread were more of a counter to some people that were using it to justify restricting rights held by gays. That I cannot abide by since that is being sinful and open rebellion against Christ's teachings. That said, his reasons can be used as a blue print for all sin and its destructiveness.
 
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Christians tend to bury their own sins in their back yard through Biblical interpretation.

So do "Former Christians". We have a few rebellious thinkers in this thread now feeding off each other who are falling into the trap of believing they think deeper if they're not "going along with the pack". This is what's at the heart of people who refuse to be part of a church or do not want to be called a Christian. Pride. They have convinced themselves that the rest of the Body is not worthy of them. They have the secret that has eluded the Church.

When someone doesn't want to be called a Christian, why is that? Because they believe they've locked onto some secret of life, and they don't want to be associated with those people? P-R-I-D-E

We have communities like the Westboro Baptist Church on one side of the spectrum. On the other side, we have believers who have been caught up in a world that wants to put homosexuality on the same level as heterosexuality. Both extremes point at the other and are unwilling to acknowledge the flaw in their own thinking. There IS a middle ground where His Word meets compassion. Believe it or not, we DON'T have to hate homosexuals to discern that it's sin.

And we don't pretend we're sinless, either. The fact that I lust and lie does not change the fact that homosexuality is sin. I need to hear lying and lusting are sins. And we're focused on it here because this is the topic of the thread. It's the prideful separatist who wants to paint us into a corner accuse us of having tunnel vision toward homosexuality.
 
Boy, some of you guys sure got things twisted.....

If I speak out against alcoholism, am I drunkaphobic?
If I speak out against stealing, am I thiefaphobic??
Pedophobic? Murderphobic?? Lol

Weird stuff.... Heres black and white...Sin is sin, marriage is a covenant with your spouse and God, and homosexuality is an abomination...
 
I don't think loving someone involves accepting their favorite sin(s). For instance, I can love a pill head, but if I'm going to be a true Christian and show real, Christ-like love, my love should also show my disapproval of their (dangerous, potentially lethal) sins.

Same with homosexuality. My own experience+available data+Scripture+Christian tradition+traditional secular morality have led me to believe that homosexuality is both sinful and harmful. Sinful because God says so, and I believe God is a lot smarter than I am, so I trust His judgment. Harmful because all the information I have available to me, plus my own experience, plus Scripture ("the wages of sin is death") leads me to believe that this particular sin is damaging to body and soul.

I know these days "thinking outside the box" or going against tradition is supposed to be a sign of enlightened thinking or intellectual depth or whatever, but that's often just not the case. Homosexuality does not work for most who engage in this behavior. That's all there is to it. To make homosexuality a viable, fulfilling, wholesome lifestyle, you'd have to create an alternate universe.
 
Well , we are all very lucky , as its god's responsibility to find fault and pass judgment . It's our job to love and find fault in our selves .
 
It's nice of you to imply that I don't know anything about struggling with homosexuality.

I'm sorry that I implied that I was making any kind of judgement towards you CalledToServe... that wasn't my intent.

Mike said:
We have communities like the Westboro Baptist Church on one side of the spectrum. On the other side, we have believers who have been caught up in a world that wants to put homosexuality on the same level as heterosexuality. Both extremes point at the other and are unwilling to acknowledge the flaw in their own thinking. There IS a middle ground where His Word meets compassion. Believe it or not, we DON'T have to hate homosexuals to discern that it's sin.

I agree. To the extent that the world wants to normalize homosexuality... hey, other than it's just one more thing to deal with in the world, it really shouldn't impact us Christians all that much. The world has normalized fornication, adultery, is trying to normalize drug use...

...whether the world cries out against these things or embraces them won't change their position... that of being lost.

But, when Christians try, usually under the guise of compassion (which I believe we most certainly need to extend to gays) to say that Gay is OK... we need to stand ready to reproof and even rebuke each other for doing so. Sure, we are all sinners, sure all of us have come from sinful backgrounds... but that doesn't mean that we should take it upon ourselves to say that what is sin, isn't... or that we need to never call it as such.
 
Mike

Your ad hominem argument means nothing to me. I’ve heard it more than once too often.

If it gives you any peace of mind, I agree that homosexuality is a sin.

The Law denounces homosexuality better than any place in the bible. Dan Savage, the gay Atheist activist, sure recognizes that. Yet most Christians believe that the Law has been abolished. Almost making his point for him. I am one of the few who doesn’t believe the Law has been abolished. Would make the OT, which is based on that Law, pretty much worthless to a Christian if it was. And that half-breed thing where the Law is abolished....except. That’s kind of funny to me. Or would be if it weren’t actually believed by so many Christians. What is considered anti-gay NT Scriptures is questionable to me. But what is said in the Law, is very clear to me.

I’m surprised that after almost a year, you still fail to understand why I call myself on this forum a former Christian. But you’re not the only one. Makes me think sometimes I’m talking to the wall. Doesn’t matter really. Since I’m in the process of becoming something else. I was going to use the term Neo-Christian. But that term is already in use in Christianity with it’s own definition. But one day I’ll come up with something that means the same as what I thought the term Neo-Christian would mean. Something like Neo-Darwinism. Similar to Darwinism, but with a different view due to different observations.

I don’t believe in judging those who haven’t yet been convicted by the Spirit. They may never be thus convicted because they have interpreted the bible to mean something it doesn’t mean. I believe that sin is sin. But it isn’t sin to the person that doesn’t realize it’s sin, until the Spirit convicts him otherwise. I am not the one to convict or to judge him. The Spirit convicts and he uses the bible to do it. What is needed is more bible, not more arguments about why gay ain’t OK.

I’m not anti-gay or a homophobe. I have gay friends. One a close personal friend. As it happens a lesbian, so I’m pretty safe as far as being hit on. But she has a brilliant mind. I hope she’s learned one eighth as much from me as I have learned from her. But her brilliance only goes to show that brilliance has nothing to do with realizing that there may be something wrong with being gay.

If one just looks at it from a natural point of view, apart from the bible, they may be just unfit to procreate, or the population has reached its quota for that generation. It certainly hinders their own ability to procreate. I tried to show on another thread that an argument from a natural point of view alone is worthless, that the bible is necessary to show that there is something wrong with being gay. All it got me was my last post on that thread removed.

I don’t think the gay “gene” is any worse than any other sin “gene”. I’m not willing to divide from gay Christians over their particular sin, any more than I would divide from any straight Christian over their particular sin.

I agree with this part of your post as well.

We have communities like the Westboro Baptist Church on one side of the spectrum. On the other side, we have believers who have been caught up in a world that wants to put homosexuality on the same level as heterosexuality. Both extremes point at the other and are unwilling to acknowledge the flaw in their own thinking. There IS a middle ground where His Word meets compassion. Believe it or not, we DON'T have to hate homosexuals to discern that it's sin.

And this,

And we don't pretend we're sinless, either. The fact that I lust and lie does not change the fact that homosexuality is sin. I need to hear lying and lusting are sins. And we're focused on it here because this is the topic of the thread.

But not when you said this and returned to your ad hominem argument.

It's the prideful separatist who wants to paint us into a corner accuse us of having tunnel vision toward homosexuality.

My view is not due to pride. It’s due to conviction. Just as yours is and just as is the gay Christian.


Ad hominem arguments don’t cut it with me. Turns me off more than anything else. I stand by what I originally said. I wasn't making an ad hominem argument. It is a fact that the tendency is there. It's due to our own sin nature. To me it's not right to judge others for something we do ourselves.

NC
 
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FC,

I've got to separate myself from this discussion, as I've probably been more involved than I should have.

My point through all this has been that I have seen no one direct their comments toward the non-believing homosexual. This has all been about the act. Furthermore, it is a discussion on the act on a Christian forum. If we were out on a random board pushing the Word of God and condemning non-believers, you and others would be justified in correcting us. But, as it is, this was set up as a discussion among believers about "the act" of homosexual behavior.

My other consistent point is that I believe we do a great disservice to the world by turning a blind eye to the degradation of God's Design. This degradation is seen in countless facets of society, but for the purposes of this discussion, it's about homosexuality (not homosexuals). For fellow believers in Christ to imply that we are espousing "hate" because we have the audacity to call sin sin (and that's all I've seen here) seems to be giving in too much to "the world". We should be able to declare, especially on a Christian forum, what God deems detestable.

I've seen threads on this topic get ugly where a few members go off on "the person", even to the point of using off-color, insulting names. In my opinion, there is absolutely no place for that. The OP started this thread by breaking down reasons why this lifestyle is destructive. As believers in His Word, we should be in agreement that it is. ANY behavior that undermines God's Design for our sexuality and becomes a lifestyle, separates them further from Him.

The third point I've been making is that His Love can be found in the entirety of His Word. We, the Church, have got to find a way to reach out to the lost with compassion and love without shying away from saying when any behavior is destructive according to God. We shouldn't attack them. We shouldn't validate their behavior either. The Law exposes sin and shows why a Savior is desperately needed. I believe this can be shown in the spirit of compassion, not condemnation. Saying we are espousing hate for calling sin sin does harm to the Body of Christ, IMO.

And that's it. CalledToServe said something about bugs in my teeth in another thread, and I have to address that. :)
 
My point through all this has been that I have seen no one direct their comments toward the non-believing homosexual.
No it hasn't. The OP is trying to expand Homosexuality to include his exaggerations as homosexuality. This is false. The OP has not demonstrated how any of his claims are true. He even stated that these points are just his opinion and walked away.

We are not arguing about the sin, but the treatment and exertions being hoisted on these people. Then asking how its Christian.


This has all been about the act. Furthermore, it is a discussion on the act on a Christian forum. If we were out on a random board pushing the Word of God and condemning non-believers, you and others would be justified in correcting us. But, as it is, this was set up as a discussion among believers about "the act" of homosexual behavior.
We are not talking about the act. The OP is about his opinions of entire group of people. How is this so hard to grasp? This topic would be exactly the same if someone took statistics about Black people and then they are evil based on prison statistics, involvement in US history, Drug abuse, etc.

Why don't we do that comparision? Because most of us can recognize that Black people aren't all the same. That it is not a lifestyle. Its just a characteristic, and we have learned to judge other black people based on the individual instead of the group. Why can't we do this with homosexuals? Oh yeah they are the current pick on group for political reasons......................Just like Black people used to be. :D

My other consistent point is that I believe we do a great disservice to the world by turning a blind eye to the degradation of God's Design. This degradation is seen in countless facets of society, but for the purposes of this discussion, it's about homosexuality (not homosexuals).
So what dose this have to do with this thread that is about exaggerations and some lies?
For fellow believers in Christ to imply that we are espousing "hate" because we have the audacity to call sin sin (and that's all I've seen here) seems to be giving in too much to "the world". We should be able to declare, especially on a Christian forum, what God deems detestable.
Who is arguing this? The main problems with this thread is the OP's claims about Homosexuals. This is the problem. Say whatever you want about the sin. Why defend the OP, when the OP even admits that its just opinion and when others ask for evidence to back up said opinions or offer counter claims and evidence.

I've seen threads on this topic get ugly where a few members go off on "the person", even to the point of using off-color, insulting names. In my opinion, there is absolutely no place for that. The OP started this thread by breaking down reasons why this lifestyle is destructive. As believers in His Word, we should be in agreement that it is. ANY behavior that undermines God's Design for our sexuality and becomes a lifestyle, separates them further from Him.
This entire thread is based on false information and sterotypes. That is what is being argued. Its not a sin to correct someone's false information. Like I said before in my deleted post. There is no reasons to add false information when you already have a sin to deal with. That is what is seen as hate mongering. The defenses of false information like its dogma.

The third point I've been making is that His Love can be found in the entirety of His Word. We, the Church, have got to find a way to reach out to the lost with compassion and love without shying away from saying when any behavior is destructive according to God. We shouldn't attack them. We shouldn't validate their behavior either. The Law exposes sin and shows why a Savior is desperately needed. I believe this can be shown in the spirit of compassion, not condemnation. Saying we are espousing hate for calling sin sin does harm to the Body of Christ, IMO.
So what is the problem with asking for accurate information to be used?
 
This entire thread is based on false information and sterotypes. That is what is being argued. Its not a sin to correct someone's false information. Like I said before in my deleted post. There is no reasons to add false information when you already have a sin to deal with. That is what is seen as hate mongering. The defenses of false information like its dogma.

So what is the problem with asking for accurate information to be used?

I tend to agree.
In reading over the OP, I can see some generalizations that are not exclusive to homosexuality, and used to propagate negative stereotypes of homosexuals that could also apply to heterosexuality. As the church, we need to stop doing that and shape a better argument.

To me this is not an issue of homosexual vs heterosexuality, the issue is about sexual sin, and if your engaged in sexual sin, it really does not matter if your gay or not.

We can say homosexuality is a sin, true, but so is heterosexuality when you are having heterosexual relationships outside marriage, or as Jesus even pointed out, in your own mind. :chin Homosexuality does not put a unique spin on sexual sin, but it does leave little alternative to a God ordained sexual life if a person is trapped in homosexuality.

The questions we should be asking is, "Is homosexuality a sin or not? Why or why not, and how does it differ from other sexual sin? How is it the same as other sexual sin?"

It's not safe to stand on one side of an issue and say your safe because thank God your not like them. Luke 18:11-12, 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

We can defend the words of God against what is wrong, that's one thing, but we need to be careful in thinking we live up to it any better than anyone else, because when we think that we place ourselves in a situation where we are leading God, when in fact God needs to be the one leading us.
 
It still doesn't change the fact that I countered his claim that Rome did not recognize same sex marriages.
Whew, for people above the law, Romans had to recognize all sorts of things, like murdering people from the top.

The Roman records say Nero went through "all the formalities" of marrying a boy look-alike to his wife, whom he murdered. If you think that was Rome recognizing the marriage as a marriage, that would be somewhat similar to the treatment of gay marriage by its opposition today. We're not taking participants to court if that's what you mean.

Since the writing of "Lex Rex" though, not even heads of state are supposed to be above the law. At least in western political thought.
That is the crux of the problem that is currently going on right now in the United States. There are many rights that have been turned into privileges by the government to gain control over people's lives. The right to marriage, to move about from place to place using whatever means, etc... have existed before the government did.
That's simply not the case. Consent of the community has historically been a major issue in marriage, for the preservation of human sexuality against immoral sexual relations. That's the reason for marriage to exist in the first place.
Do you love gays like Christ loves them? Are you willing to go the extra mile by denying your right to marriage and to enter into contracts in solidarity of these second class citizens? Every time I have asked this question in this thread it gets ignored because people are unable to face themselves in the mirror and see the reflection of themselves that runs contrary to what Christ taught.
I don't see gays as any different from other sinners like myself, no.

The extra mile is intended to benefit the recipient by converting sin into righteousness, but entrenching people in sin is no benefit to anyone. I can't convert sin into righteousness in this instance in the way my response does in going the extra mile.
Yes, because we all know that all gays are pedophiles.
Nobody's said that. I made a demonstration of the invalidity of the argument. You made an accusation that doesn't follow. You've followed one invalid argument with another. So how many wrongs do you think it will take to make a right?
There is no morality in law.
Then eliminate law. There's no reason for law if there's no morality in law.

"So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Rom 7:12, ESV
If you use morality as your measuring tape then you are headed for trouble.
Like God's Word does?
Our system of laws was set up originally around the concept of rights and the infringement of them.
That's not the case. Our system of laws is set up around avoiding the infringement of rights, but laws themselves are based specifically on the power granted to the government by the Constitution. In point of fact, the original Constitution enumerated no rights at all. Amendments list rights the government could not infringe on, that were reserved to various groups, specifically the people or individuals.
It wasn't until the 1850's that people got married without the government being involved with their little permission slips called licenses. The entire reason behind licenses for marriage is based upon hatred of a minority group and to prevent these minorities from marrying whites.
That's again, not the case. Plus, it'd be kind of silly to say US laws must be based on the protection of rights, and that somehow US laws aren't based on the protection of rights in this case. The inconsistency in treatment points again to the fact that it's not reality.

Among the earliest laws in the colonies dealt with marriage.
I'd be hard pressed to associate myself and support marriage laws since they are a racist institution to begin with. I'm all for getting the government out of where it belongs.
Hint: they weren't attacking races, those early laws about marriage.

In point of fact race wasn't a concern then for marriage. Pocahontas even comes to mind.
Now, if you are basing your judgment of who gets rights based upon the Bible then you are definitely headed for trouble. This is a violation of the First Amendment's protections against laws being enacted based upon a religious tome, scripture, etc.... Establishment means to settled in fixed form such as laws, constitution, rule of government. I didn't write the definition for Establishment, but it was the one used by the founding fathers.
The First Amendment deals with establishment of religion or prohibiting free exercise. There's no trouble implementing monogamy into law, for instance. Yet half the world has no problem with polygamy.

So implementing such a law doesn't strike at the First Amendment.
Actually, the Amendment speaks of life, liberty, and property without due process of law. Sexuality is part of life and liberty. God gave us this great gift of being intimate on the emotional, physical, and spiritual level that we enjoy it. That is part of how God created us.
Sexuality can be exploited and immoral and that concerns law.
 
Couldn't have said it better!
so my friend who called me up after prayer told me that being gay was a sin as i was going to church while in that sin is wrong?

if you see a murder then what? be silent? sin is sin.stealing is sin,lying is sin. hmm best not to preach outside our walls then.
 
Boy, some of you guys sure got things twisted.....

If I speak out against alcoholism, am I drunkaphobic?
If I speak out against stealing, am I thiefaphobic??
Pedophobic? Murderphobic?? Lol

Weird stuff.... Heres black and white...Sin is sin, marriage is a covenant with your spouse and God, and homosexuality is an abomination...


Straight forward and to the point :thumbsup

Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
 
Christians had the same view when the first Black soldiers were integrated into the US military. There was a massive news articles about it. Just food for thought, since these Christians used the Bible as an excuse for their racism.
Big difference between racism and homosexuality. It is not sin to be a race. Homosexuality is a sin. When folks put these two very different thoughts in the same light it speaks strongly of who they are.
 
Yeah it shows that the person is rational and doesn't fall for propaganda and fallacious arguments.

This is not about the sin, but the treatment of the people. The sin is no reason to restrict rights and demonize a group of people.
 
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As a non Christian i would expect you to have such a view... propaganda depends on who is spouting it.

I wish for the , society, the church had done something about divorce being so very easy. About the acceptance of unwed parenthood. As a movement not against the people but against the attitude that everything is OK . Every thing is not OK lots of stuff hurts many many people many groups.
 
Jesus told us not to have sex before we married and not to have sex with anyone we weren't married to. Homosexuals are people who disobeyed this command.
 
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