A Biblical Conflict

[JLB]

there is numerous and i do mean numerous scriptures that shows the security of salvation .

Awesome!


Can you share some of those with us?



JLB

 

[ezra]

Awesome!


Can you share some of those with us?



JLB

normally i dont as it creates " discussion " argument

1 Peter 1:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

John 10:27-29 King James Version (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

1 John 2:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Ephesians 1:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest ( guarantee} of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


1 John 5:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
and of curse the rebuttals will follow

 

[chessman]

Here is what Paul was referring to -

A passage from Matthew? Here’s what he told Timothy:

Be remembering Jesus Christ having been raised from the dead, from the seed of David, according to my good-news— in connection with which I am suffering-hardship to the point of imprisonment like a criminal. Nevertheless the Word of God has not been bound! For this reason, I am enduring all things for the sake of the chosen ones, in order that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

2 Timothy 2:8-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 2:8-10&version=DLNT

The hymn is about chosen ones’ eternal glory with Christ Jesus and you think it’s about becoming lost. Interesting!

 

[ezra]

this is why i say the conflict is not biblical but man

 

[for_his_glory]

IMO wondering answered better in her post #9 of what she presented in her OP. There is no conflict with scripture, but only that of mans doctrines that cause conflicts.

 

[ezra]

IMO wondering answered better in her post #9 of what she presented in her OP. There is no conflict with scripture, but only that of mans doctrines that cause conflicts.

God remains faithful to Himself...
He remains faithful to HIS plan of salvation.
He remains faithful to HIS promises, which are for our benefit...IOW, He'll save everyone who so desires it and who fulfills the conditions /belief in Jesus, obedience, becoming disciples, etc.

If we lose our faith in Jesus,,,He will have to remain true to His nature and deny us before God, because He cannot deny Himself. .. no issue with this but man takes scripture and makes it say what he wants

 

[JLB]

1 Peter 1:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations

Yes if our faith stands the test of persecution, we will certainly receive the salvation of our soul as an end result of our faith.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9


receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.


I think we can all agree that it is required that we continue in the faith to the end, if we expect to receive the salvation of our souls.


IOW, if we continue in the faith, our salvation is secure.



JLB

 

[JLB]

A passage from Matthew? Here’s what he told Timothy:

Be remembering Jesus Christ having been raised from the dead, from the seed of David, according to my good-news— in connection with which I am suffering-hardship to the point of imprisonment like a criminal. Nevertheless the Word of God has not been bound! For this reason, I am enduring all things for the sake of the chosen ones, in order that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.​

2 Timothy 2:8-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Timothy 2:8-10&version=DLNT

The hymn is about chosen ones’ eternal glory with Christ Jesus and you think it’s about becoming lost. Interesting!

First of all, What “hymn” are you referring to?

Secondly, I quoted what Jesus said about the subject of denying Him.

His words are the foundation we build a solid theology upon.



JLB

 

[Pegasus]

But...wait.
Doesn't verse 12 say: "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" ??

So... does HE also deny us...
OR
Does He remain faithful, even if we're not?

Sounds like a conflict, doesn't it...but there is no conflict in scripture.
So...what's the solution?

Good questions and a fine selection. I think the answer is in the comparison of Judas and Peter. One was an elect child of God (Peter) and one was not (Judas). Peter was preserved by God to the time of his repentance and Judas was not. It is a matter that the elect will persevere because God preserves them. David committing adultery and conspiracy to murder comes to mind. King Saul? Not.

 

[billybalke]

Good questions and a fine selection. I think the answer is in the comparison of Judas and Peter. One was an elect child of God (Peter) and one was not (Judas). Peter was preserved by God to the time of his repentance and Judas was not. It is a matter that the elect will persevere because God preserves them. David committing adultery and conspiracy to murder comes to mind. King Saul? Not.

It was Jesus Himself who chose Judas!

 

[ezra]

Yes if our faith stands the test of persecution, we will certainly receive the salvation of our soul as an end result of our faith.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9


receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.


I think we can all agree that it is required that we continue in the faith to the end, if we expect to receive the salvation of our souls.


IOW, if we continue in the faith, our salvation is secure.



JLB

im done

 

[ezra]

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

 

[for_his_glory]

God remains faithful to Himself...
He remains faithful to HIS plan of salvation.
He remains faithful to HIS promises, which are for our benefit...IOW, He'll save everyone who so desires it and who fulfills the conditions /belief in Jesus, obedience, becoming disciples, etc.

If we lose our faith in Jesus,,,He will have to remain true to His nature and deny us before God, because He cannot deny Himself. .. no issue with this but man takes scripture and makes it say what he wants

Man made doctrines always misrepresent the word of God as it always twist the scriptures to support what they present. We do not study to cause conflicts, but to be approved by God alone for what we speak and teach others.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[chessman]

First of all, What “hymn” are you referring to?

The one that I pointed out in post #4 that is a “trustworthy saying” which is verses 11-13, which wondering put only a portion of in an OP about conflicting verses. It’s a lyrical/rhythmic hymn in Greek. That is, all of it. The idea that one stanza of the hymn conflicts with another stanza in the hymn doesn’t even make sense. Timothy and his congregation already knew the hymn (all of it) and rejoiced because of it’s message often.

Paul was reminding him of it so that he would remember just how faithful Christ is toward His elect ones.

I quoted what Jesus said about the subject of denying Him.

Jesus said what you quoted to His disciples so that His disciples would also know (as He already knew would happen) that the Pharisees and Jewish rulers of His day would deny Jesus is Lord and that the disciples would eventually be killed by them. And thus the Pharisees will be denied as ever being one of His elect.

It’s different subjects.

But yes, they both come up in a word search for “deny”.

 

[ezra]

Man made doctrines always misrepresent the word of God as it always twist the scriptures to support what they present. We do not study to cause conflicts, but to be approved by God alone for what we speak and teach others.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

yes i am aware its just anything along the line of eternal security discussion in the forum creates havoc . some body has to add on to it from there it escalates

 

[for_his_glory]

yes i am aware its just anything along the line of eternal security discussion in the forum creates havoc . some body has to add on to it from there it escalates

It only becomes havoc when man's doctrines conflict with the written word. Those who are kept in Christ as they have faith and trust Him in all trials and tribulations the comes against them are secured in the inheritance of eternal life with the Father. Those that sit on the fence being luke warm will have God spew them out of His mouth and their names blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life, Rev 3:5; 15, 16.

 

[GodsGrace]

The one that I pointed out in post #4 that is a “trustworthy saying” which is verses 11-13, which wondering put only a portion of in an OP about conflicting verses. It’s a lyrical/rhythmic hymn in Greek. That is, all of it. The idea that one stanza of the hymn conflicts with another stanza in the hymn doesn’t even make sense. Timothy and his congregation already knew the hymn (all of it) and rejoiced because of it’s message often.

Paul was reminding him of it so that he would remember just how faithful Christ is toward His elect ones.

Jesus said what you quoted to His disciples so that His disciples would also know (as He already knew would happen) that the Pharisees and Jewish rulers of His day would deny Jesus is Lord and that the disciples would eventually be killed by them. And thus the Pharisees will be denied as ever being one of His elect.

It’s different subjects.

But yes, they both come up in a word search for “deny”.

What hymn????
What are you talking about?

I'm talking about 2 Timothy 2:12-13 in the O.P.
and how it SEEMS to conflict, but doesn't.

 

[WIP]

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Are you declaring the questions presented as foolish and vain because you disagree with them?

 

[chessman]

What hymn????

The hymn that Paul reminds Timothy of in his letter to him. It’s recited in 2 Tim 2:11-13. Which is why you’ll find in portioned (indented) all as one saying. Like here:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 tim 2:11-13&version=NASB

What are you talking about?

The hymn that Paul reminds Timothy of.

I'm talking about 2 Timothy 2:12-13 in the O.P.

Verse 12 is the second stanza of the four stanza hymn. If you want to understand the whole song, start at v11 where it starts out with a trustworthy rejoicing:

For if we died with him, we will also live with him ...​

and then sing the whole thing.

it SEEMS to conflict

To who? I don’t see any conflict at all. If we died with Him, we will also live with Him.

The only conflict would be to think someone who has died with Him will NOT live with Him.

 

[ezra]

Are you declaring the questions presented as foolish and vain because you disagree with them?

are you? i had no idea i had give reason for my answer